A Commission?

[ddelaney103]

PHS officers are part of the USN and have federal commissioning credentials and requirements similar to that of the armed forces.

They are??

Well, except for the part about the USN - they wear the Navy uniform but with different badges (NOAA Corps does the same thing).

PHS are under UCMJ (sometimes) but since they're medical people they don't really have command authority over anyone except other medical people.

[Dragoon]

I've been in CAP about 40 days. I'm trying to understand the high emphasis placed upon 'commissions' and uniforms.

IMO, CAP ranks are on the same footing as officers in fire departments, not the US armed forces. This is no way implies that there aren't competent people in CAP. There are. However, I fail to see how being a CAP officer comes remotely close to meeting the commissioning requirements of the US military.

Don't kid yourself  - CAP ranks are wayyyy beneath officers in fire departments.  Fire department rank denotes position.  CAP rank just denotes experience.

In a fire department, last time I checked, you don't get to be captain and just drive the truck.  You have to be in charge of something.  But in CAP it's just fine to be a captain and just drive the van....

And this is why the concept of a commission makes no sense - the purpose of commissioning someone is to give them authority and responsibility.  We don't seem to want to do that.

[mikeylikey]

I've been in CAP about 40 days. I'm trying to understand the high emphasis placed upon 'commissions' and uniforms.

IMO, CAP ranks are on the same footing as officers in fire departments, not the US armed forces. This is no way implies that there aren't competent people in CAP. There are. However, I fail to see how being a CAP officer comes remotely close to meeting the commissioning requirements of the US military.

Don't kid yourself  - CAP ranks are wayyyy beneath officers in fire departments.  Fire department rank denotes position.  CAP rank just denotes experience.

In a fire department, last time I checked, you don't get to be captain and just drive the truck.  You have to be in charge of something.  But in CAP it's just fine to be a captain and just drive the van....

And this is why the concept of a commission makes no sense - the purpose of commissioning someone is to give them authority and responsibility.  We don't seem to want to do that.

So lets change that. 

[mikeylikey]

PHS officers are part of the USN and have federal commissioning credentials and requirements similar to that of the armed forces.

They are??

Well, except for the part about the USN - they wear the Navy uniform but with different badges (NOAA Corps does the same thing).

PHS are under UCMJ (sometimes) but since they're medical people they don't really have command authority over anyone except other medical people.

ummm ya.......they are a Uniformed Service of the United States, but their commissioning requirements DO NOT mirror anything the military has (except education)  Last time I checked, they are NOT subject to the UCMJ (Military Justice).  Most vary rarely wear a uniform.  I am still wondering why we even have them around today.  Same with the NOAA Commissioned Corps. 


Heck, right now the USPHS is hurting for people, I am sure they will grant waivers for everything, just to get warm bodies. 

[ddelaney103]

PHS officers are part of the USN and have federal commissioning credentials and requirements similar to that of the armed forces.

They are??

Well, except for the part about the USN - they wear the Navy uniform but with different badges (NOAA Corps does the same thing).

PHS are under UCMJ (sometimes) but since they're medical people they don't really have command authority over anyone except other medical people.

ummm ya.......they are a Uniformed Service of the United States, but their commissioning requirements DO NOT mirror anything the military has (except education)  Last time I checked, they are NOT subject to the UCMJ (Military Justice).  Most vary rarely wear a uniform.  I am still wondering why we even have them around today.  Same with the NOAA Commissioned Corps. 


Heck, right now the USPHS is hurting for people, I am sure they will grant waivers for everything, just to get warm bodies. 

They're a lot like the military medical corps, which is not like the military.  The MC is one of the few places where you can walk in the office a no prior service civilian and walk out a Colonel.

[RiverAux]

I've been in CAP about 40 days. I'm trying to understand the high emphasis placed upon 'commissions' and uniforms.

Don't confuse topics on this board with anything that 99% or more of CAP members care one bit about. 

[sandman]

PHS officers are part of the USN and have federal commissioning credentials and requirements similar to that of the armed forces.

No, USPHS is not a part of the USN. The USPHS is falls under the Department of Health and Human Services not the Department of Defense....

They are??


Well, except for the part about the USN - they wear the Navy uniform but with different badges (NOAA Corps does the same thing).

PHS are under UCMJ (sometimes) but since they're medical people they don't really have command authority over anyone except other medical people.

The USPHS is not subject to UCMJ, unless you take a job with a DoD component.

ummm ya.......they are a Uniformed Service of the United States, but their commissioning requirements DO NOT mirror anything the military has (except education)  Last time I checked, they are NOT subject to the UCMJ (Military Justice).  Most vary rarely wear a uniform.  I am still wondering why we even have them around today.  Same with the NOAA Commissioned Corps. 

You wonder why we're still around? Do you know anything about the USPHS?

Heck, right now the USPHS is hurting for people, I am sure they will grant waivers for everything, just to get warm bodies. 

Funny you should mention that....My first commission with the USPHS was as follows: receive a packet in the mail, sign and notorize a few papers, send in the packet, receive a letter in the mail saying (paraphrase) congrats LTJG now go and find a job for yourself! Seriously, that was it!

I'm getting a waiver for 18 years of active duty......I would think I'm more than just a warm body....

[riffraff]

Sorry folks. Head-space/timing group problem on my post from yesterday (PHS part of the USN). What I meant was that PHS had a naval style uniforms and officer program similar to that used by health care professionals who receive direct commissions into the armed forces. Brain was way ahead of my fingers.

I looked at PHS pretty seriously about 10 years. They were offering physician assistants direct commissions along with a very generous student loan repayment plan.

Can't speak for now but back then it was licensed health care professionals. Again, similar to direct commissioning of doctors/nurses -- at least how they did it 10-15 years ago. The only folks walking in the door as civilians and out as Colonels would likely be board certified surgeons and those of similar ilk. Same applies to the armed forces.

Unless there have been dramatic changes, MDs were/are given direct commissions as Captains and nurses were 1st LTs, depending on additional qualifiers. In any event, these folks received their positions based upon professional medical qualifications.

Back to CAP: officer grades appear largely devoid of meaningful qualification (in the sense that it's lacking compared to formal training received by military officers, etc) and, to me anyway, has no discernable rhyme or reason behind it. Examples:
CFI -- automatic promotion to Captain
Career military NCO -- SMWOG (assuming doesn't want CAP NCO status) and then 6 months for 2LT.

Depending on your mindset, which of the above has the more meaningful/relevant background? No right or wrong answer. Just depends on your perspective.

CAPs grade structure is fine so long as people stop somehow equating it to the armed forces.

[SAR-EMT1]

But being an EMT or medic and not a : Dr, PA, RN will they commission you? or even accept you?

[riffraff]

Here's the site:  http://www.usphs.gov/aboutus/questions.aspx#whatis


Here's what they list for commissioned positions:
Physician
Nurse
Pharmacist
Dentist
Dietitian
Engineer
Environmental health officer
Health services officer
Scientist
Therapist
Veterinarian

[riffraff]

I've been in CAP about 40 days. I'm trying to understand the high emphasis placed upon 'commissions' and uniforms.

Don't confuse topics on this board with anything that 99% or more of CAP members care one bit about. 

Hoping you're right.

[arajca]

I've been in CAP about 40 days. I'm trying to understand the high emphasis placed upon 'commissions' and uniforms.

Don't confuse topics on this board with anything that 99% or more of CAP members care one bit about. 

Hoping you're right.

The important stuff we discuss at our units. This is where we can discuss the stuff that would make the eyes of our local members glaze over.

[Dragoon]

I've been in CAP about 40 days. I'm trying to understand the high emphasis placed upon 'commissions' and uniforms.

IMO, CAP ranks are on the same footing as officers in fire departments, not the US armed forces. This is no way implies that there aren't competent people in CAP. There are. However, I fail to see how being a CAP officer comes remotely close to meeting the commissioning requirements of the US military.

Don't kid yourself  - CAP ranks are wayyyy beneath officers in fire departments.  Fire department rank denotes position.  CAP rank just denotes experience.

In a fire department, last time I checked, you don't get to be captain and just drive the truck.  You have to be in charge of something.  But in CAP it's just fine to be a captain and just drive the van....

And this is why the concept of a commission makes no sense - the purpose of commissioning someone is to give them authority and responsibility.  We don't seem to want to do that.

So lets change that. 

Sounds easy - but is actually verrry difficult.

1.  CAP's culture is that everyone deserves to be promoted.  If you in any way link grade to authority, you'll upset all the people who want to be Lt Cols, but who either don't have the talent or inclination to performa that level, or aren't willing to endure the long commute to go where a Lt Col job is.

2.  CAP doesn't do "up or out."  We do "up or down."  Today's Vice Wing Commander is tomorrow's Squadron ES Officer.  Unless we are willing to go with temporary grade that comes and goes with position , it's gonna be hard to make it work.

[Dragoon]

CAPs grade structure is fine so long as people stop somehow equating it to the armed forces.

Yup,  But as long as we wear USAF grade on USAF uniforms, it's gonna be durn near impossible to get people to NOT equate it to the armed forces.  After all, what other logical reason would we have for doing it?

[riffraff]

Yup,  But as long as we wear USAF grade on USAF uniforms, it's gonna be durn near impossible to get people to NOT equate it to the armed forces.  After all, what other logical reason would we have for doing it?

And your statement nicely puts the issue into focus. Why so much interest in 'legitimizing' CAP rank (i.e. commissions)? I would venture ego/vanity is the prime motivator here. Ties in with the uniform thread, too. Make the CAP uniform indistinguishable from USAF for what reason? Again, I suspect ego and vanity are high on the reason list.

[Short Field]

I would venture ego/vanity is the prime motivator here.

Truth Grenade!!!!!  Flames to follow...

[Grumpy]

I would venture ego/vanity is the prime motivator here.

Truth Grenade!!!!!  Flames to follow...

Amen to that!

[Falshrmjgr]

I would venture ego/vanity is the prime motivator here.

Truth Grenade!!!!!  Flames to follow...

Amen to that!

I would imagine that the cache that CAP has as an "Auxilliary of the United States Air Force" (or whatever is correct this week)  has a certain value.  People want to feel like they are part of the Air Force, and that is not a bad thing.  In fact that is a huge part of what draws people.  And what differentiates CAP from other organizations.  I'm sure it what draws cadets versus other youth organizations.   Why is that wrong?  There seems to be two camps here, which perceive their positions as mutually exclusive.  I don't think they are.

I think that the problem is just that CAP is weird.  It is not the mililtary, but it isn't exactly civilian either.  So we go back and forth trying to figure out which square hole to put the round peg in.

[DNall]

I would venture ego/vanity is the prime motivator here.

Truth Grenade!!!!!  Flames to follow...

Amen to that!

I would imagine that the cache that CAP has as an "Auxilliary of the United States Air Force" (or whatever is correct this week)  has a certain value.  People want to feel like they are part of the Air Force, and that is not a bad thing.  In fact that is a huge part of what draws people.  And what differentiates CAP from other organizations.  I'm sure it what draws cadets versus other youth organizations.   Why is that wrong?  There seems to be two camps here, which perceive their positions as mutually exclusive.  I don't think they are.

I think that the problem is just that CAP is weird.  It is not the mililtary, but it isn't exactly civilian either.  So we go back and forth trying to figure out which square hole to put the round peg in.

If I can echo that... the AF get's an ~$80mil cost savings for $25mil input. The price they pay for that is asuaging the egos of a bunch of old civilian pilots playing military in AF looking uniforms & being equated w/ the AF, plus they get the cadet program & all it brings to them & the military at large (which is huge on a cost/benefit basis). If CAP did the same job in the same way w/o the military trappings, there wouldn't honestly be enough people here willing to get raped financially & screwed over as volunteers to sustain an organizaiton at all, much less one with a big enough national pressence to do the mission. The AF knew what they were getting into in 1942/3, and 47, 03, and 07, and they've consistently thought it was worth the hassle/price. It'd be pretty hard to lay those facts in front of any taxpayer and get a different answer.


ORIGINAL QUESTION:
Now, the orginal question about national guard OCS, just wanted to clarify since I'm in the TX OCS program right now.

It's a NGB (national) program. ALL states have the same requirements, which are to START: 60hrs, complete basic (or prior svc/WLC), 18-39 (30+ req waiver but never denied - that's just about being able to serve 20yrs commissioned so you don't get screwed on the pension, or at least contract knowing you will get screwed), US citizen, able to get secret clear.

Now in order to commission, you have to have completed 90hrs. And degree completion prior to Captain.

The program is non-competitive for selection. The guard/reserve were short 10,500 company grade officers last year. We have Lts commanding companies in some fields. I got a guy in my class that isn't even commissioned yet that's a support Company XO on state active duty on the border mission & already slotted to take command when he gets back from accelerated in March. Mid-grade Capts as Bn Cdrs... it's crazy. My aviation unit just got back from Iraq. They were short pilots when they left & had to draw from other states, reserve, & active duty just to field a Bn. Now that people are back & getting out, they are really short handed, and that's freaking Apache pilot slots I'm talking about - walk across the field the day you get back from training & get hired flying back & forth to rigs for upwards of 80k/yr. The quality isn't lowered at all, but getting INTO the program is not much of a challenge, and the career opportunities when you commission are really good.

Now the program for anyone that's interested...

The traditional program runs 18mos: fri-sun wknd drills (no excuse ofr missing), and 2x 18day annual training periods in the two summers involved. Runs March to Sep of the following year.

There is also an accelerated option. That's 3-6 drills then 8wks in Kansas or Alabama. 7days/wk, loong days, mostly in the field.

The program is a bit shorter (in terms of duty time, not calender) than the federal OCS program (12wks), but also a bit harder - it's highly field oriented versus fed is more in garrison with laptops. The NG OCS program has a pretty consistent 70% drop rate, versus fed is more like 40%. A lot of that has to do with the serious demands it makes on you while trying to balance an outside life. It's much easier to go away to school & focus on just that. It's based on the infantry officer field, it's very demanding physically, and a high stress enviro (much like basic on a serious amount of steroids).

That's the nutshell. The program is standardized & quality controlled by the feds to fed OCS, so when you grad you get a fed commission in the reserves at the same time as you get a state commission.

I do HIGHLY encourage anyone that qualifies to come do it, but it's not easy. ROTC is MUCH MUCH MUCH eaiser & less time consuming with better pay while you're in school, but then you have to be under 27 for ROTC & I missed that one a while back.

[JohnKachenmeister]

We have bounced around this topic a lot.  Lets get back to what we were originally debating.

And... exactly what was that?