Lets make all CAP senior members follow the same program

[RiverAux]

One cause that I have long championed is getting rid of all special appointments, mission-related skills promotions, and professional appointments and promotions.  All of these ways of getting promoted in CAP faster than you would otherwise through following the standard CAP program are presumably in place to provide incentives for those who meet the criteria to join CAP.  To my knowledge this incentive has never been shown to be an effective recruiting or retention tool. 

I've never seen any official explanation for why we have NCO ranks, we most certainly don't have a "program" for them so I can only assume that we have them as an incentive to appeal to former NCOs who are feel that becoming a CAP officer would be demeaning.  Obviously it doesn't work as there are way, way more former NCOs who participate in the standard program than become CAP NCOs.  So, I lump the NCO grades in with the other special appointments as failed recruiting tools. 

So, basically I want to find out how much support is out there for making all CAP senior members follow the standard CAP senior member development program so that at least we know that all CAP Captains have learned the exact same things and have the exact same knowledge of CAP and its workings. 

As it stands now you could line up 10 CAP Captains all of whom could have obtained that grade in 10 different ways.  I just don't think that inspires any confidence in the system. 

Once we are all forced to follow the same system for promotions, we can then make some headway in improving the professionalism of the force.  As long as a significant percentage of our seniors are able to bypass the system there is no chance of large scale improvements. 

Reality being what it is, I would grandfather in everybody at their current grades.  I think we could put up with that given that with routine turnover most seniors would be fully within the new system in 5-10 years. 

Who is with me?

[Eclipse]

Where do I sign?

[coudano]

Fine with me.
I would go ahead and continue to give ex cadets and military credit for the equivalent courses that they "already completed"

[RiverAux]

I don't have a problem with equivalency for military courses. 

[Nolan Teel]

Why not ask the National Commander? :clap:

[Thrashed]

If you get a special assignment promotion to Captain, you still have to do all the levels too. You still need time in grade to Major. I don't see the big deal. Doctors drafted into the military don't start at 2d Lt.  Many people in the civilian world have earned positions equal to military Colonels. Why should they start at the bottom? The systems works fine as it is, don't be jealous of those more qualified than you.

[Eclipse]

PME credit is not the same as advanced grade, but what purpose does it serve?

CAP is unlike any other animal, and only looks like the military from the outside to people who have not been in either service.

The only reason the military gives advanced grade to professionals is to provide them a pay-grade or authority respective with
the job they will do in the service, and if they don't live up to their job or authority they lose it (or are separated).

Advanced grade serves zero purpose in CAP - there's no requirement or even expectation that someone given Captain for
being a CFI will ever instruct or even fly for CAP, and no ramifications when they don't.  Further, a successful field-grade officer in the
military will have little idea how to get things done in CAP, and waiving CAP professional development because of "equivalent" PME
doesn't help that, and won't provide the respective member with the knowledge he actually needs in CAP to get things done.

This is absolutely not the same thing as a Navy Lt. Commander transferring to the USAF and expecting to be a Major - at least in that
case both services provided a similar baseline training, and much of the shorthand would be the same.  And even in inter-service
transfers a lot of times people have to accept a demotion.

We need people who understand the "CAP Way", not who come in the door with expectations that their "1C-BTDT" means anything here.

[SarDragon]

Advanced grade serves zero purpose in CAP - there's no requirement or even expectation that someone given Captain for being a CFI will ever instruct or even fly for CAP, and no ramifications when they don't.

In my unit, our CFIs serve as check pilots. They don't get their advanced grade until after they start putting that CFI certificate to use for CAP.

[RiverAux]

If you get a special assignment promotion to Captain, you still have to do all the levels too.

Only if they want to promote higher. 

[NCRblues]

Advanced grade serves zero purpose in CAP - there's no requirement or even expectation that someone given Captain for being a CFI will ever instruct or even fly for CAP, and no ramifications when they don't.

In my unit, our CFIs serve as check pilots. They don't get their advanced grade until after they start putting that CFI certificate to use for CAP.

That's rare in my area. Most CFI's walk in the door and hear someone say "omg! a CFI, you can be a captain next week as long as you get your paper work done".

I have even had former military come look (they were CFI's) and they heard "you can be captain next week" and laughed loudly and walked away never to return. I even emailed one and asked why he never returned. He said "I do not want to belong to an organization that hands out officer grade to anyone who walks into the door and is CFI." He went on to say "you will not even know if these people you give Captains and Majors too can lead someone out of a wet paper bag. I have done my research, and you do not hand cadets advanced grade because they are an eagle scout, or a red cross volunteer, why would it be different for those over 18?"

Do away with them. I have said this before, and will continue to support the idea.

[Eclipse]

If you get a special assignment promotion to Captain, you still have to do all the levels too.

Only if they want to promote higher.

Thus the very high number of "Senior" Captains.

[RiverAux]

I'd like to remind everyone that in a previous poll, 80% (one of the most lop-sided CAP polls I've seen) of respondents said that the PD program was valuable to CAP (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=13777.msg249115#msg249115).  If that is the case it stands to reason that all senior members should be required to participate in it. 

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

I would agree with the exception of legal officers. CAP at all levels can't afford the expense, if we had to pay by the hour for legal advice.

You could add a process to demote them to the grade they had the PD for if they stop being legal officers and stay in CAP.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I would only keep the following special appointments:

Legal officers (lawyers at Capt, paralegals at 1st Lt)
Medical officers (Physicians, PA's and Nurse Practitioners at Capt, RN's at 1st Lt)
Chaplains (M.Div or equivalent at 1st Lt, D.Min or equivalent at Capt)

Everything else...start at square one.

[NCRblues]

Got to ask, why keep giving doctors and nurses advanced grade? What can they do in cap? Nothing more than a basic EMT, or first responder... or joe blow.... "hey, iv got a cell phone, ill call 911"

[Eclipse]

Legal officers now have to be appointed by wing, and should go directly to wing, do not pass go (if they want to serve as such).
There is no need to have legal officers serving at the squadron level, nor to confer them special appointment based only on their degrees
if they aren't appointed as such.

Medical officers are essentially barred from providing the services that would make them "special".

I see no advantage in bumping Chaplains - their services, especially, are almost the antithesis of what grade is about, and it offers them no advantage
when serving with other services.  The uniform and the clergy insignia should be enough.

[AirDX]

Thank you for your opinions, but I disagree.  And so far the poll seems to be going 3-2 in favor of keeping the present system.  The posters are in favor of changing it - but it's the usual crowd, and I'd guess a lot of those voting in favor aren't going to post the same in fear of the usual CAP Talk flaming they'll get.

I don't actually care, so flame on.

I have not seen the problems you all talk about, in fact I have active duty guys that would walk on out if I said "I know you're an active duty Lt Col, but hey, this is CAP, YOU start as a second looie here."

You have a perceived problem that only the few are perceiving as a problem.  In all my face to face contacts around the wing, I've never heard anyone complain.  This is another CAP Talk chimera.     

[Extremepredjudice]

Why not make the seniors do the cadet program?
Start at airman basic, and move up.

That would fix our nco program not doing anything

[lordmonar]

Is this an attempt to make rank mean something?

Since ranks has no real meaning......who cares?

Until we pin rank to actually responsibilities.....I dosen't matter if I give you an advanced rank to BGen or not.

[Eclipse]

Since ranks has no real meaning......who cares?

Exactly, glad we can agree on this - cause, that's a two-way street, right?

It's meaningless when someone is trying to shake their bars to get someone to do something, yet some how "important" when you say someone
can't have it.