CAP NCO's

[sandman]

A problem with most CAP NCOs I have seen is they completely discount, if not outrightly mock, the cadet officer part of the program. That is the single biggest issue - they try to equate the cadet enlisted progression with the military enlisted progression, where E-9 is the end. Unlike the military, E-9 is not even halfway through, but convincing some CAP NCOs of that is a lost cause because "they're REAL NCOs" and know better.

That is a fairly large indictment of the NCO Corps within CAP.

Are you sure you're only citing one specific instance or are you able to argue that this alleged problem is rampant within the CAP NCO Corps?

If that is "the single biggest issue", are there other issues that you find to be a problem that, collectively, may pose an equally "biggest issue"?

If you're right, then the CAP NCO Corps should not be allowed to continue, especially in connection to CAP cadets....

[sandman]

Also, what is an NCOs primary responsibility and duty?
Training.

I always thought it was mid-level management, ensuring that the policies and procedures directed by the officer corps were carried out.

That's part of it. Recall what the reasons were for the military to add the E-8 and E-9 pay-grades. Wasn't a large part of it to facilitate disbanding the warrant officer program? The AF was the only service to follow through with that plan however.

Any history buffs recall the rank of Private First Class-specialist second class (and subsequent grades) used up through the late 40's?

[Eclipse]

I always thought it was mid-level management, ensuring that the policies and procedures directed by the officer corps were carried out.

We're all officers (by designation), and most are NCO's (by actual duty).  Not much to mid-manage.

[Eclipse]

A problem with most CAP NCOs I have seen is they completely discount, if not outrightly mock, the cadet officer part of the program. That is the single biggest issue - they try to equate the cadet enlisted progression with the military enlisted progression, where E-9 is the end. Unlike the military, E-9 is not even halfway through, but convincing some CAP NCOs of that is a lost cause because "they're REAL NCOs" and know better.

That is a fairly large indictment of the NCO Corps within CAP.

Are you sure you're only citing one specific instance or are you able to argue that this alleged problem is rampant within the CAP NCO Corps?

If that is "the single biggest issue", are there other issues that you find to be a problem that, collectively, may pose an equally "biggest issue"?

If you're right, then the CAP NCO Corps should not be allowed to continue, especially in connection to CAP cadets...

I have seen this as well - total lack of understanding of the way the cadet structure works, encouraging cadets to remain Chiefs.  Obviously this
is something which can be managed, but it's simply unnecessary.  Those people who join CAP who happen to be NCOs in another service, can bring their skills and abilities to the table regardless of their insignia, same as everyone else.

There is little specific to the cadet program that a military NCO can do "better" than anyone else with a similar understanding of the program.

[arajca]

A problem with most CAP NCOs I have seen is they completely discount, if not outrightly mock, the cadet officer part of the program. That is the single biggest issue - they try to equate the cadet enlisted progression with the military enlisted progression, where E-9 is the end. Unlike the military, E-9 is not even halfway through, but convincing some CAP NCOs of that is a lost cause because "they're REAL NCOs" and know better.

That is a fairly large indictment of the NCO Corps within CAP.

Are you sure you're only citing one specific instance or are you able to argue that this alleged problem is rampant within the CAP NCO Corps?

If that is "the single biggest issue", are there other issues that you find to be a problem that, collectively, may pose an equally "biggest issue"?

If you're right, then the CAP NCO Corps should not be allowed to continue, especially in connection to CAP cadets....

That is the biggest issue I can find in regards to cadets, which is the primary arguement being made for a CAP NCO corps.

Perhaps I should have said "met" instead of "seen" since this relates to MY experiences with CAP NCOs, which, admittedly, is not a huge number. 4-5 out what 50, 75 throughout CAP? Another issue, unrelated to cadets is the habit of some that I have met who will insist that their stripes mean other members need to consider them to be a Lt Col. Then there is the insistance of some THAT I HAVE MET that they are superior to CAP officers, despite only being in CAP for a few months and having completed Level 1.

[sandman]

I have seen this as well - total lack of understanding of the way the cadet structure works, encouraging cadets to remain Chiefs.  Obviously this
is something which can be managed, but it's simply unnecessary.  Those people who join CAP who happen to be NCOs in another service, can bring their skills and abilities to the table regardless of their insignia, same as everyone else.

Lack of understanding of how the cadet program works? That's too bad.

Could reflect against the training of senior members brought into the program.

I would resubmit that a fundamental change of the CAP Cadet program to an "all NCO" corps would be beneficial....However, there are just too many of you haters out there to bring up the subject ever again...

There is little specific to the cadet program that a military NCO can do "better" than anyone else with a similar understanding of the program.

I don't disagree at all. I just subscribe to the thought that a viable (vice "static") SM NCO Corps would offer "fun" options for adults to participate in CAP. Kinda like a box of ice cream, many volunteers enjoy plain vanilla, some might enjoy chocolate, others...just plain nuts...(you know who you are....)

[Eclipse]

Could reflect against the training of senior members brought into the program.

I agree, which works against the idea that a military NCO will automatically be "better" by nature of his stripes, any more than we can expect
a successful comapny commander to be a good Squadron CC just because he's an Army Captain.

I would resubmit that a fundamental change of the CAP Cadet program to an "all NCO" corps would be beneficial....However, there are just too many of you haters out there to bring up the subject ever again...

Us haters?  Good luck with the Spaatz Association.

[Eclipse]

Andrew nailed it.

Grade has no connection to responsibility in CAP, yet we want to introduce a new class of membership that believes it does coming in the door?

[sandman]

That is the biggest issue I can find in regards to cadets, which is the primary arguement being made for a CAP NCO corps.

Perhaps I should have said "met" instead of "seen" since this relates to MY experiences with CAP NCOs, which, admittedly, is not a huge number. 4-5 out what 50, 75 throughout CAP?

I understand what you mean (met vs seen) and that is somewhat tragic.

Another issue, unrelated to cadets is the habit of some that I have met who will insist that their stripes mean other members need to consider them to be a Lt Col. Then there is the insistance of some THAT I HAVE MET that they are superior to CAP officers, despite only being in CAP for a few months and having completed Level 1.

Again, tragic.

On one hand, some CAP NCO's are "superior" to CAP officers in relation to understanding the military, how to march, individual and small team training, etc, etc. Now, you "nutty ice cream" types don't need to start spoutin' your immaculate knowledge of CAP Regs....Officers "outrank" NCO's, respect/disrespect, etc, etc.

An interesting speculation on my part is as follows: SM's who choose to wear the NCO stripes understand that they are superior to CAP officers, but that person shouldn't insist on that type of recognition ("insist that their stripes mean....Lt Col"). Sooooo, again, I say that there is a high probability of paucity in senior member training in regards to CAP vs Real Military (assumptions contrasted with reality of an all-volunteer volunteer program with inconsistent application of CAP enculturation /  indoctrination)

Spaatz Association?
Earn Spaatz = promote to C/CMSgt
everybody's happy....

[arajca]

Another issue, unrelated to cadets is the habit of some that I have met who will insist that their stripes mean other members need to consider them to be a Lt Col. Then there is the insistance of some THAT I HAVE MET that they are superior to CAP officers, despite only being in CAP for a few months and having completed Level 1.

Again, tragic.

On one hand, some CAP NCO's are "superior" to CAP officers in relation to understanding the military, how to march, individual and small team training, etc, etc. Now, you "nutty ice cream" types don't need to start spoutin' your immaculate knowledge of CAP Regs....Officers "outrank" NCO's, respect/disrespect, etc, etc.

You might want to qualify that since many more NCOs are CAP officers than are CAP NCOs.

An interesting speculation on my part is as follows: SM's who choose to wear the NCO stripes understand that they are superior to CAP officers, but that person shouldn't insist on that type of recognition ("insist that their stripes mean....Lt Col"). Sooooo, again, I say that there is a high probability of paucity in senior member training in regards to CAP vs Real Military (assumptions contrasted with reality of an all-volunteer volunteer program with inconsistent application of CAP enculturation /  indoctrination)

Again with the erroneous assertion that CAP NCOs are automatically superior to CAP officers.

Here's a slightly different point of view: Stripes = ego trip.

[sandman]

You might want to qualify that since many more NCOs are CAP officers than are CAP NCOs.

Agreed, for certain forum members. But the statement stays as the former was implied.

Here's a slightly different point of view: Stripes = ego trip.

Agreed. That was what I was implying!

[Eclipse]

Also, by the same vein, what about the real Colonels and Generals who have to take a "demotion" to be in CAP.  Rarely do they even care, let alone make an issue of it. 

Why are they different?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

That's part of it. Recall what the reasons were for the military to add the E-8 and E-9 pay-grades. Wasn't a large part of it to facilitate disbanding the warrant officer program? The AF was the only service to follow through with that plan however.

One of the silliest decisions the AF has ever made.

http://www.usawoa.org/downloads/AFA_1191tween.pdf

The AF of that era couldn't get past the concept that all warrants = WWII Flight Officers.

Any history buffs recall the rank of Private First Class-specialist second class (and subsequent grades) used up through the late 40's?

My dad was one of the earliest Army Specialists...back when the grades went up to SP9.



He was an SP4.  I still have his old Ike jacket with 4th Armored Division crest and the early-type SP4 shields.  This one with 2nd Armored crest is almost identical to my dad's.



He said at that time Specialists were to be kind of like enlisted-level warrant officers, Specialists in a given field (he was a radio repairman) and there weren't supposed to be that many of them, except in technical MOS.  Of course, now Specialists are the rule, not the exception...being promoted Corporal is the exception!

I've always thought we're top-heavy with sergeants.

The British, Aussies and New Zealanders (and Canada pre-1968) have two levels of air force sergeant: Sergeant and Flight Sergeant.




A Flight Sergeant with them is the equivalent of a USAF Master Sergeant.

I think we have way too many Sergeants...I wouldn't mind reverting to diagrams I saw in an old book called Insignia Of The Armed Forces (which had CAP):

Airman - one stripe
Airman First Class - two stripes
Sergeant - three stripes
Staff Sergeant - three stripes/one rocker
Technical Sergeant - three stripes/two rockers
Master Sergeant - three stripes/three rockers

[sandman]

Also, by the same vein, what about the real Colonels and Generals who have to take a "demotion" to be in CAP.  Rarely do they even care, let alone make an issue of it. 

Why are they different?

Help me understand the relevance...

Other than that, maybe these retired high ranking people no longer need to play "one-upmanship" game that may be prevalent within CAP. It could be implied that they understand the CAP program in the context of it's volunteer/civilian/"Boy-Scout like"/para-military existence where "rank" is only relative within the context of the program; independent of federal/state law (ya don't get paid for it and you're not entitled to a salute...unless you're wearing your MoH).

CyBorg:

Here is a link you've probably seen:

http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/UniformedServices/Insignia_Rank/enlisted_history.aspx

This one is where I snipped my previous photo (saw the stripes IRL at the Fort Sam Houston museum):

http://users.skynet.be/jeeper/chevrons.html

I worked for a SP-5 when I first joined the California National Guard (HHC 1/185th Armor Bn)!

[Eclipse]

My dad was a Spec-4 doing telephone technician work.  That would be more appropriate to CAP than NCO in at least it would indicate someone
with limited interest beyond a specific duty.

I don't think the Specialists were intended to be "mini-NCO's".

[Eclipse]

Also, by the same vein, what about the real Colonels and Generals who have to take a "demotion" to be in CAP.  Rarely do they even care, let alone make an issue of it. 

Why are they different?

Help me understand the relevance...

Other than that, maybe these retired high ranking people no longer need to play "one-upmanship" game that may be prevalent within CAP. It could be implied that they understand the CAP program in the context of it's volunteer/civilian/"Boy-Scout like"/para-military existence where "rank" is only relative within the context of the program; independent of federal/state law (ya don't get paid for it and you're not entitled to a salute...unless you're wearing your MoH).

It's the same exact argument on the other side of the pyramid.  We have no more need for stars then we do stripes.
What we need are people with ability, proven or otherwise, wiling to help and absent the egos related to some other service.

You're a rocking NCO or capable general officer?  Show me.
I've personally had "challenges" with both.

[Hardshell Clam]

Eclipse: So how do you really feel about CAP NCOs? And now the CAP is "Boy Scout like"?

CyBorg: I was a SP-5. As your a history buff you may know this: The Army never actually filled the SP-8 or 9 positions, they only existed "on the books".

[NCRblues]

Tick-tock where is the lock clock??

[sandman]

Tick-tock where is the lock clock??

The thread is still useful, and relevant.

[SarDragon]

Tick-tock where is the lock clock??

The thread is still useful, and relevant.

Agreed, and I'm still trying to figure out which direction to go when I respond, as a 20 year Navy NCO, and 35 year CAP officer.