CAP NCO's

[Short Field]

An interesting speculation on my part is as follows: SM's who choose to wear the NCO stripes understand that they are superior to CAP officers, but that person shouldn't insist on that type of recognition ("insist that their stripes mean....Lt Col").

An interesting speculation on my part is as follows:  I was superior to NCOs when I was on active duty and nothing has changed since I started wearing CAP rank.    Guess that comes from having multiple E9s in multiple services working for you... 

If my ability to project my leadership skills and have the respect of my fellow members depended on the type and color of cloth I wear on my shirt, then my juju would be pretty weak.

[Hardshell Clam]

Fact: NCO ranks are provided for in CAP regs as approved by the USAF and it appears they will not be going away anytime soon.

I leave you to debating the pros/cons of this fact endlessly with this last thought:

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein

[Eclipse]

Fact: NCO ranks are provided for in CAP regs as approved by the USAF and it appears they will not be going away CAP allows members who are, or have been, NCO's in a separate military service, to wear equivalent grade stripes in lieu of accepting officer grade appointment, however there is currently no "NCO Program"in CAP, nor any separation of duties, and that isn't going to change any time soon

Fixed that for you...

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein Narcotics Anonymous (1981)

That one, too.

[Hardshell Clam]

Eclipse, You sir, are some piece of work.

[Eclipse]

Eclipse, You sir, are some piece of work.

Compliments will get you nowhere.

[Hardshell Clam]

Eclipse, You sir, are some piece of work.

Compliments will get you nowhere.

Indeed. Keep thinking that

[BuckeyeDEJ]

I wasn't sure which thread to post this, but this one had the most recent activity regarding CAP NCO's. I like the stripes sported by this CAP NCO at this most recent AFSA (50th) anniversary (of course General Schwartz was there, as well as a few others)!

Not intending to turn it into a uniform thread, but I don't like the "font" of the "CAP" on the stripes, it could look better, although I have to admit that the TriProp actually looks OK.

I find it a bit annoying that it has "CAP" on the stripes and on the collar. How many times do you need to put "CAP" on the uniform? Yeesh.

My suggestion: The stripes, as they are configured, but in the same grey collar as the officer's epaulets on blues and grey/whites. Eliminate the "C.A.P." collar brass, it doesn't need to appear on the uniform four times.

Of course, just to make it easy and "unbusy" the other uniforms a bit, eliminate "CAP" cloth cutouts on the BDU for SMWOG and CAP NCO's. Of course, for aesthetic purposes, the utilities would look best with a blue version.

That's the aesthetics addressed. As has been pointed out before, the validity of an NCO program must be determined first. If they have no purpose, then there is little point in creating such a grade bracket in the first place.

The "CAP" in the first-sergeant diamond space is totally unnecessary. I'd also say, to be heraldically correct, the propeller needs to be in blue against a white triangle within the round space -- to echo our WWII roundel, just as the Air Force does with the blue disc, the white star and the meatball in the middle. If anything, change the blue to silver gray to match the officer epaulets (and hence, the propeller to gray). With the change in the middle, and/or the gray color, there's no need for "CAP" anywhere else. Especially if you have first sergeants or command chiefs, where do you put the "CAP"? Let's keep it consistent.

Or we leave well enough alone and leave the stripes as-is, instead focusing on a blank gray shoulder mark.

[JC004]

The "CAP" in the first-sergeant diamond space is totally unnecessary. I'd also say, to be heraldically correct, the propeller needs to be in blue against a white triangle within the round space -- to echo our WWII roundel, just as the Air Force does with the blue disc, the white star and the meatball in the middle. If anything, change the blue to silver gray to match the officer epaulets (and hence, the propeller to gray). With the change in the middle, and/or the gray color, there's no need for "CAP" anywhere else. Especially if you have first sergeants or command chiefs, where do you put the "CAP"? Let's keep it consistent.

Or we leave well enough alone and leave the stripes as-is, instead focusing on a blank gray shoulder mark.

If CAP is to have its own stripes, that's what I was thinking.

[Hawk200]

I wasn't sure which thread to post this, but this one had the most recent activity regarding CAP NCO's. I like the stripes sported by this CAP NCO at this most recent AFSA (50th) anniversary (of course General Schwartz was there, as well as a few others)!

Not intending to turn it into a uniform thread, but I don't like the "font" of the "CAP" on the stripes, it could look better, although I have to admit that the TriProp actually looks OK.

I find it a bit annoying that it has "CAP" on the stripes and on the collar. How many times do you need to put "CAP" on the uniform? Yeesh.

My suggestion: The stripes, as they are configured, but in the same grey collar as the officer's epaulets on blues and grey/whites. Eliminate the "C.A.P." collar brass, it doesn't need to appear on the uniform four times.

Of course, just to make it easy and "unbusy" the other uniforms a bit, eliminate "CAP" cloth cutouts on the BDU for SMWOG and CAP NCO's. Of course, for aesthetic purposes, the utilities would look best with a blue version.

That's the aesthetics addressed. As has been pointed out before, the validity of an NCO program must be determined first. If they have no purpose, then there is little point in creating such a grade bracket in the first place.

The "CAP" in the first-sergeant diamond space is totally unnecessary. I'd also say, to be heraldically correct, the propeller needs to be in blue against a white triangle within the round space -- to echo our WWII roundel, just as the Air Force does with the blue disc, the white star and the meatball in the middle. If anything, change the blue to silver gray to match the officer epaulets (and hence, the propeller to gray). With the change in the middle, and/or the gray color, there's no need for "CAP" anywhere else. Especially if you have first sergeants or command chiefs, where do you put the "CAP"? Let's keep it consistent.

Or we leave well enough alone and leave the stripes as-is, instead focusing on a blank gray shoulder mark.

If you're talking about wearing standard blue stripes, and then a blank shoulder mark, then no. The uniform needs to be simpler,  that would be busier. For something simple, change the color. Grey background Air Force pattern stripes would be easiest. Since it's only a thread color change, it would be easy. Grey stripes, grey nametag (which is three line and says Civil Air Patrol would be pretty obviously different) and done.

[BillB]

CAP NCOs have been wearing the standard Army/Air Force stripes since 1943. Why this sudden change? Did the USAF mandate a change, or is this somebodys idea that WE need to change? Since the standard USAF stripes are aloso worn with the CAP collar cutouts is there really a need to change?

[lordmonar]

Well.....at this point....there is no change.  There is only one instance of the command chief wearing a test stripes.

Lots of speculation....no information.

[Hawk200]

CAP NCOs have been wearing the standard Army/Air Force stripes since 1943. Why this sudden change? Did the USAF mandate a change, or is this somebodys idea that WE need to change? Since the standard USAF stripes are aloso worn with the CAP collar cutouts is there really a need to change?

I suggest the change to a grey stripe to eliminate collar cutouts (I dislike them). If someone sees a CAP NCO wearing grey stripes and a grey nametag and confuse them with someone who is active duty, it's just simple ignorance.

While Army Guard previously, I was assigned to an Airborne unit, and had a unit tab that said "Airborne." I had people ask me if I was in the Air Force. I understand that there are people that are that unfamiliar with uniform insignia, but a simple, maybe somewhat subtle change to a different color, should be plenty enough to tell any familiar with military uniform that a CAP NCO would not be Air  Force.

After attending Warrior Leader Course, I'm beginning to think that there might be a place for NCOs. NCOs generally train crews, teams, and individuals. Beginning to think that maybe that there might be place for them. Of course, there would have to be notable differences in their career paths in CAP. Otherwise, making a differentiation would be pointless.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I suggest the change to a grey stripe to eliminate collar cutouts (I dislike them). If someone sees a CAP NCO wearing grey stripes and a grey nametag and confuse them with someone who is active duty, it's just simple ignorance.

It is at least equally ignorant, if not illiterate, to confuse someone who was wearing the BLUE CAP shoulder marks and BLUE three-line nameplate with someone who is in the AF, especially since many SDF Air Wings wear a virtually unaltered uniform that the AF doesn't raise a peep about!  Some say that the AF doesn't have control over that...like heck!  It's their uniform, and they could forbid SDF's from wearing it and/or make them modify it, just as they have with us.

Texas State Guard CCMSgt Harold L. Higgins, Jr.


No "low-light/at-a-distance" felgercarb with them.

Not to mention SDF's who wear unaltered (except for state tape replacing "U.S. Army") ACU's, or State Naval Militia wearing virtually unaltered Navy/CG/Marine uniforms.

[lordmonar]

Well.....it is harder for the USAF to put the squeeze on the SDF's then it is for them to put the squeeze on CAP.

On that note......even with the whole low light at a distance thing........there is no real reason why CAP can't be using the real USAF rank (ie loose the gray) if we simply put a CAP patch on the sholder.

[Hawk200]

I suggest the change to a grey stripe to eliminate collar cutouts (I dislike them). If someone sees a CAP NCO wearing grey stripes and a grey nametag and confuse them with someone who is active duty, it's just simple ignorance.

It is at least equally ignorant, if not illiterate, to confuse someone who was wearing the BLUE CAP shoulder marks and BLUE three-line nameplate with someone who is in the AF, especially since many SDF Air Wings wear a virtually unaltered uniform that the AF doesn't raise a peep about!  Some say that the AF doesn't have control over that...like heck!  It's their uniform, and they could forbid SDF's from wearing it and/or make them modify it, just as they have with us.

Texas State Guard CCMSgt Harold L. Higgins, Jr.


No "low-light/at-a-distance" felgercarb with them.

Not to mention SDF's who wear unaltered (except for state tape replacing "U.S. Army") ACU's, or State Naval Militia wearing virtually unaltered Navy/CG/Marine uniforms.

I agree that it's not fair, but it really isn't any of our business when you really think about it. We're responsible for our house, not the SDF's.

I think that we need to deal with the Air Force in a mature manner, start acting like we're part of them, and lose the corporate mentality. We can have a corporate side for the finances, but that's all there needs to be. Seems like there is a lot of "Oh, yeah, we like that, so we'll do it," but there is also a lot of "Oh, we don't like such and such, and we're a corporation, so we're not gonna do it." That mentality needs to die.

I think that we should have some distinctions with our uniform; nothing against the Air Force, but we do have unique missions being performed by volunteers, and I feel that we should possess some of our own identity. However, the distinctions shouldn't look ridiculous. We can be distinctive, and still maintain the spirit of a clean professional uniform that the Air Force possesses.

Back to the topic on hand: I'm starting to think that there is a place for NCOs in CAP. But, that place needs to be defined very specifically, along with criteria for them. I don't think it's a bad idea for prior military NCOs to promote, at least they aren't stuck in a one rank dead end. It needs to be spelled out, with clear delineation of duties for each rank bracket.

[Hardshell Clam]

For those who don't know: SDF are a type of military unit under the state's military departments and the DOD even has an office that works with the SDF's. Some state units have guns and some don't, but all have the legal authority to carry firearms and act as a state military force. While SDFs do not come under the UCMJ, they do come under state military laws and regulations while on drills.

They also have physical requirements that very state to state but at the least your MD has to approve you for service at no risk to yourself. (Doc has to sign your enlistment forms). Also, all that I know of have mandatory age limits to serve (64 as I recall).

In WA they wear the same ACU and other army uniforms with the only difference being a state name or a red name tag when in other army uniforms. They are also authorized to attend real military training and draw state funded military pay at their rank when called into service when authorized by the state. And the ranks are "real".

The down side is that I was soooooooooo bored in the SDF as we did even less then the CAP. A few call outs for flooding but the boy scouts had more of a defined mission...

[SARDOC]

Volunteers are motivated by a number of reasons.  One of those positive things to do is promote and recognize your membership for reaching certain milestones.  Our Current professional Development program leaves a lot to be desired and really isn't that difficult to achieve.  I've been back in CAP for two years and am just waiting to finish the required time for my Master Specialty Track rating to complete level 4.  Which means the only thing I have to do is be active and just wait for TIG for Lieutenant Colonel.   

I think if we had an enlisted rank structure we could actually measure progress and achievements in a more timely manner keeping the members actively engaged in their professional development as opposed to the Six month Second Lieutenant for life.  My squadron has personnel that are only interested in Emergency Services and not Specialty tracks.  We have members that have been Second Lieutenants for greater then 5 years with no desire to advance and that's okay.  However, it would be nice periodically promote/recognize someone for their service and dedication to the organization for something that may not warrant an award or decoration.  Or Promote someone for ES Qualification like A1C or SrA for MRO, GTM, MSA, MS among others.  SSGT, TSGT for CUL, GTL, MO, PIO just as examples Similar promotions can be be devised for our other core missions and essential staff functions as well.   Our Current Level 3 or 4 should be the basic minimum to become a CAP officer and our PD system expanded for senior officers.  I would find that while promotion is not an objective for some people that they can still occasionally be surprised by the recognition.  It's another tool in the toolbox to encourage member retention.  If I were emperor of the world...things would be different.