CAP Talk

General Discussion => Uniforms & Awards => Topic started by: cwade1775 on January 04, 2012, 02:32:39 AM

Title: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: cwade1775 on January 04, 2012, 02:32:39 AM
Greetings,
I have an officer that has asked if it's ok to wear only his AF ribbons on the AF style uniform.  I haven't been able to find anything that says it's ok or not ok...
Anyone have any ideas?
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: Pump Scout on January 04, 2012, 02:35:57 AM
On the AF uniform, yes. On the aviator shirt, CAP ribbons only.

CAPM 39-1

5-2. When Awards and Decorations are Worn. Ribbons are mandatory with the USAF service dress
and the semiformal uniforms. They are optional with all other service uniforms and the aviator shirt.
No military awards or decorations may be worn on the aviator shirt. NOTE: All ribbons and devices
worn by senior members must fall below the top notch of the collar on the service coat or the bottom tip
of the collar of AF-style shirts/blouses worn as outergarments. Miniature medals are mandatory with the
mess dress uniform (men and women). One miniature medal may be worn on the semiformal blazer
uniform.

5-4. Military Service Awards. Military service ribbons may be worn on the CAP AF-style uniform
provided they were awarded in writing by competent military authority. Awards of the Air Force,
Army, Navy, Marine Corps, or Coast Guard will be worn in the order prescribed by the awarding
service, subject to the following: In all cases of relative priority, Air Force awards will take precedence.
See Table 5-3. Awards for wars, campaigns, expeditions etc., will be worn in chronological sequence.
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: cwade1775 on January 04, 2012, 02:50:34 AM
ok..I saw that....only question I had is the member wants to wear only his military ribbons...no CAP ribbons...any rule against that?
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: Eclipse on January 04, 2012, 03:04:00 AM
Not specifically, but were I his commander I would be asking "Why?".

In most cases it is because the person is just too lazy to make a proper CAP-specific ribbon rack, is "trolling
for awesomeness", or is a poser.

Military ribbons have little relevance to CAP, and the majority of your other members will have no idea what they are for. 
My personal experience is that anyone who is too "excited" about their previous anything experience (within a CAP context),
probably doesn't understand CAP or just wants people to be "excited" for them.

The whole point of the ribbons is some shorthand to fellow members about where you've been and whether people
you've worked for liked you enough to decorate you.

You'd be well within your rights to require substantiation for anything he wants to wear.
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: arajca on January 04, 2012, 03:05:43 AM
There is no rule against it.

Personally, if they do not want to wear their CAP ribbons on the CAP uniform, I have to wonder if they're ashamed of the CAP ribbons and if so, is that reflected in their attitude toward CAP?
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on January 04, 2012, 03:09:49 AM
I'm in the other camp...I only wear CAP ribbons.

There's a handful of others I could wear, but I follow the K.I.S.S. principle on it...not to mention that there are a couple of online rackbuilders that will give you contradictory information.
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: abdsp51 on January 04, 2012, 03:10:27 AM
So what if those are the only ribbons that someone has?
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on January 04, 2012, 03:13:48 AM
Quote from: abdsp51 on January 04, 2012, 03:10:27 AM
So what if those are the only ribbons that someone has?

Then I would think it's perfectly all right to wear those.

My first squadron had a member who was also an NCO in the Air Force Reserve.  For a while all his CAP ribbon rack had were his Air Force ribbons and the CAP Membership Ribbon.
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: Eclipse on January 04, 2012, 03:27:06 AM
Quote from: abdsp51 on January 04, 2012, 03:10:27 AM
So what if those are the only ribbons that someone has?

Beyond the first few weeks, every member should have at least the membership ribbon.
No one should be participating for very long without at least that dec.

Again the question comes down to motivation - a current or recent former military guy with a handy rack, fine, whatever for a few weeks,
but someone with a row or two who just can't be bothered (or worse), needs a conversation.

Something I have seen around me more than a few times, and fairly recently, was active and reservists who simply won't buy a
uniform of any kind and keep showing up in their USAF uniform (especially ABU's), that violates regs on both sides of the house.
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: GroundHawg on January 04, 2012, 03:36:02 AM
Quote from: CyBorg on January 04, 2012, 03:09:49 AM
I'm in the other camp...I only wear CAP ribbons.


Me too. I look ridiculous if I wear both and feel it is disrespectful to only wear military ribbons. Ive thought about wearing my top 3 military on top of my CAP, but havent yet looked to see if that is authorized.
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: Eclipse on January 04, 2012, 03:39:52 AM
You can mix and match any of the authorized ribbons.
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: RogueLeader on January 04, 2012, 03:41:31 AM
Quote from: GroundHawg on January 04, 2012, 03:36:02 AM
Quote from: CyBorg on January 04, 2012, 03:09:49 AM
I'm in the other camp...I only wear CAP ribbons.


Me too. I look ridiculous if I wear both and feel it is disrespectful to only wear military ribbons. Ive thought about wearing my top 3 military on top of my CAP, but havent yet looked to see if that is authorized.

It is. For us Seniors, it is: All, Some, or None. I have two stacks. One with all military and CAP, and one with CAP and military that CAP had influence on getting awarded, like my movsm, and my aam.
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on January 04, 2012, 04:47:29 AM
It's a bit like ANG/ARNG...most of them have two separate ribbon racks.

One has both their Federal and State ribbons, the other their Federal only, because they cannot wear State ribbons when they are activated for Federal service.

A CAP officer I once served with who had a very extensive military career (USN, AFRES) and concurrent CGAUX service had a most interesting ribbon rack.  He had Navy, Air Force, CG, CGAUX and State Ribbons (yes, I know those aren't permitted on the CAP uniform).

How he figured out orders of precedence for that I'll never know.

I'm surprised someone hasn't tried to hang a few of these on:

http://www.medalsofamerica.com/ItemList--Commemorative-Medals--m-599 (http://www.medalsofamerica.com/ItemList--Commemorative-Medals--m-599)

They're meant to be for display cases and wear on civilian clothing, and not on military uniform.  However, since the G/W is not a military uniform, I wonder if someone's ever tried to do it...mind you, I wouldn't, but there might be some that would.

Of course, that's pure conjecture on my part.
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: flyboy53 on January 04, 2012, 12:09:19 PM
Quote from: RogueLeader on January 04, 2012, 03:41:31 AM
Quote from: GroundHawg on January 04, 2012, 03:36:02 AM
Quote from: CyBorg on January 04, 2012, 03:09:49 AM
I'm in the other camp...I only wear CAP ribbons.


Me too. I look ridiculous if I wear both and feel it is disrespectful to only wear military ribbons. Ive thought about wearing my top 3 military on top of my CAP, but havent yet looked to see if that is authorized.

It is. For us Seniors, it is: All, Some, or None. I have two stacks. One with all military and CAP, and one with CAP and military that CAP had influence on getting awarded, like my movsm, and my aam.

Me, too. For the longest time, I only wore my military ribbons. Honestly, they were the only ribbons that really meant something to me. Then, after 10 years, I added one row on the bottom with the top three CAP ribbons...that's three of 14 I'm entitled to wear. I chose to be conservative and simple in my uniform choices.

Besides, what's the big deal. It's personal choice. When I was a cadet, there was a major in our unit who was a charter member of the CAP. He only always wore one row of ribbons....the three he earned in federal service during WW II as a PA National Guardsman. No one ever challenged his choice.

If the guy can wear the military uniform and only wants to wear his military stuff, why the issue, especially if he's a valued participating member. You really want to tick someone off and lose the individual because someone else is offended because he won't wear CAP ribbons......
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: MSG Mac on January 04, 2012, 12:27:43 PM
When I wear the CAP uniform. It's CAP on the shirt and Military on the service coat. Too many of each to combine.
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: Hawk200 on January 04, 2012, 02:54:46 PM
When I first rejoined, I wore my military ribbon rack for the first several months until I could reassemble my CAP ones. Went to a wing conference held at my local unit, and had a cadet look at my rack and somewhat loudly proclaim "I've got more ribbons than you!" I simply replied, "At the moment, yes, you do." Six months later, went to a different conference, and he was very surprised, and very disappointed to find I was now wearing more than him. He was a problem child, the son of a unit commander from a very problem squadron.

I don't see the problem in wearing them for a little bit if it is all you have. But if it runs over years, I might wonder. Most of those folks you can kind of "nudge" into showing some CAP pride by talking about them. "How long have you been in?" "You got your Membership Ribbon?" Next time you see them, "You should have a Red Service by now, right?" Follow that up with things like, "Didn't you go to an enampment?" and so forth.

These days, I advocate wearing them all, military, CAP, whatever else you have that would be legal on a CAP uniform. It shows people what you have done. At one time, I made sure a reference on all military ribbons was available to everyone in our squadron, many in the unit could read military ribbons just as well as CAP ones. If someone in my unit is prior military, I like to know the military resume as well. Of course, on one occasion I caught a faker and he wasn't around long after that. You don't get away with wearing ribbons awarded for Desert Shield when you were only in the Army for six months.

People can be encouraged to wear them with the right questions. Just express curiousity about their CAP activities, they'll start wearing them.
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on January 04, 2012, 08:32:51 PM
We had one guy in my first unit who had been Pararescue in Vietnam, as well as being an airline pilot with zillions of hours under his belt, and a great, great guy on top of it.  He also wore the USAF Pararescue beret badge on the right side; I'm not sure how regulation that is.

When he was an SMWOG, all he wore was his military ribbons, and no-one ever thought of saying "why do you wear your Bronze Star, Air Medal, etc. when you haven't got any CAP ribbons yet?"
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: ColonelJack on January 05, 2012, 12:49:53 AM
Quote from: CyBorg on January 04, 2012, 04:47:29 AM
I'm surprised someone hasn't tried to hang a few of these on:

http://www.medalsofamerica.com/ItemList--Commemorative-Medals--m-599 (http://www.medalsofamerica.com/ItemList--Commemorative-Medals--m-599)

They're meant to be for display cases and wear on civilian clothing, and not on military uniform.  However, since the G/W is not a military uniform, I wonder if someone's ever tried to do it...mind you, I wouldn't, but there might be some that would.

Of course, that's pure conjecture on my part.

Nor would I.  But just for the sake of pointing it out, their Cold War Victory commemorative stinks.  I much prefer this one:

http://www.foxfall.com/cwm.htm (http://www.foxfall.com/cwm.htm)

It just looks ... cooler.

YMMV, of course.

Jack
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on January 05, 2012, 01:32:13 AM
That one is nicer.

I wish I would have known it was available when I did a shadow box of Army insignia for my ex-Soldier dad before he died in '05.  :-[

After all, he was very near the front lines of the Cold War - West Germany in the late 1950's.
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on January 05, 2012, 01:35:35 AM
Quote from: Hawk200 on January 04, 2012, 02:54:46 PM
When I first rejoined, I wore my military ribbon rack for the first several months until I could reassemble my CAP ones. Went to a wing conference held at my local unit, and had a cadet look at my rack and somewhat loudly proclaim "I've got more ribbons than you!" I simply replied, "At the moment, yes, you do." Six months later, went to a different conference, and he was very surprised, and very disappointed to find I was now wearing more than him. He was a problem child, the son of a unit commander from a very problem squadron.

Have you ever seen a dual-status CAP/AFJROTC cadet?  My first squadron had a few of those and cripes-a-mighty, they made Colin Powell look like a new buck private.  It was almost bordering on garish.

I would have answered this young man with "yes, you have more ribbons, but ribbons do not necessarily convey authority or integrity, except in the case of a MOH recipient, who all personnel must salute, regardless of rank."
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: medicmike on January 05, 2012, 02:40:45 AM
I wear all of my Air Force ribbons plus my two CAP ribbons whenever I wear blues.  Most of the prior military folks in my squadron wear both as well.  I think wearing both shows your pride in CAP and in your prior service and looks appropriate.
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: PHall on January 05, 2012, 04:41:34 AM
I do a variation of the above. I wear all of my CAP ribbons plus the five individual decorations I have from the Air Force (MSM, AM, AAM, AFCM & AFAM).
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: Private Investigator on January 05, 2012, 02:04:18 PM
Quote from: arajca on January 04, 2012, 03:05:43 AM
There is no rule against it.

Personally, if they do not want to wear their CAP ribbons on the CAP uniform, I have to wonder if they're ashamed of the CAP ribbons and if so, is that reflected in their attitude toward CAP?

If you are retired military for example and you want to add a CAP ribbon, it will cost you about $40 to make a new rack because I do not recycle ribbons and I think most Vets will not recycle old ribbons to make a new rack.
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: lordmonar on January 05, 2012, 03:50:37 PM
Quote from: Private Investigator on January 05, 2012, 02:04:18 PM
Quote from: arajca on January 04, 2012, 03:05:43 AM
There is no rule against it.

Personally, if they do not want to wear their CAP ribbons on the CAP uniform, I have to wonder if they're ashamed of the CAP ribbons and if so, is that reflected in their attitude toward CAP?

If you are retired military for example and you want to add a CAP ribbon, it will cost you about $40 to make a new rack because I do not recycle ribbons and I think most Vets will not recycle old ribbons to make a new rack.
I wish it only cost me $40 to build a ribbon rack!

So I only wear CAP ribbons on my short sleeve blues and aviator shirt....but wear all of them on my service coat and mess dress.
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: CAPsteve on February 10, 2012, 07:18:44 AM
I have 31 Ribbons.  All but 6 are Military I "Earned" in combat and service from the Air Force and Army. The 6 are CAP.
Now my problem: Ribbon Racks only go to 32 Ribbons plus more than 32 will go over the "top noch" of the collar.
so, if I receive any more CAP Ribbons, by the Regs., I won't be allowed to wear them and there is no way I will ever remove my Military Ribbons.  I guess to solve this problem, I don't earn or receive anymore CAP Ribbons.

I guess if I could wear them all, i'de look like one of those "Commie Generals" in Russia.
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: NCRblues on February 10, 2012, 07:23:41 AM
Quote from: CAPsteve on February 10, 2012, 07:18:44 AM
I have 31 Ribbons.  All but 6 are Military I "Earned" in combat and service from the Air Force and Army. The 6 are CAP.
Now my problem: Ribbon Racks only go to 32 Ribbons plus more than 32 will go over the "top noch" of the collar.
so, if I receive any more CAP Ribbons, by the Regs., I won't be allowed to wear them and there is no way I will ever remove my Military Ribbons.  I guess to solve this problem, I don't earn or receive anymore CAP Ribbons.

I guess if I could wear them all, i'de look like one of those "Commie Generals" in Russia.

Oh that's the spirit.... Don't get anything else cap related....  ::)
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: SarDragon on February 10, 2012, 07:30:54 AM
That seems like a narrow attitude to have. Are all of your military ribbons so important that you can't remove some of the unit and theater related items, and retain the ones awarded to you for your personal efforts, like Good Conduct, achievement medals, etc?

I'm proud of my military ribbons, too, and if I was in your position, I'm sure I could pick and choose to make an acceptable rack. As it is, I can't even wear any of my military ribbons because of my beard. But that's my choice to have it.
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: Cliff_Chambliss on February 10, 2012, 02:23:45 PM
Taking a different stance, I will only wear the ribbons awarded to me.  The very idea that CAP expects me to fill out a form requesting that I be awarded such and such a ribbon denegrates the entire program to little more than a collection of PX soldiers.  Now should I do something notable and be presented an award by "higher ups" as an "attaboy" great.  But I have way too many things on my plate to go running to the commander or anyone else saying "gimmee an award I showed up" and then go buy my own ribbon/award. 
Academic at best as I again state it's the man that makes the uniform and not the uniform that makes the man.
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: kirbahashi on February 15, 2012, 03:40:34 AM
I see no issues with wearing military only ribbons.  I would wonder, and probably ask why, and respect that persons reason.  As for me?  I need to update my CAP ribbon rack.  I am about to add digits to my RSR, need to add clusters to my encampment, and my Level IV is coming through any day...  Plus I will wear some of my USAF ribbons.  However, I have 22 ribbons and medals, plus my 10 CAP Ribbons.  And my interests in looking like a Panamanian Dictator are not high on my lists.  I will probably wear about 7 or 8 of my ribbons with my CAP ribbons, and politely answer questions as to why I do.

But someone had me rolling with their JROTC comment...  FTLOG, I was at my Son's winter drill-athon or whatever it's called.  His flight commander had a billion ribbons AND medals AND aguilletes (SP) on his shoulder cord.  He over exagerated his facing movements so his aguillete would hit his medals.   ::)

Like an old cadet commander of mine.  He got butt hurt when I called out the fact he had the same ribbon on (with no devices mind you). Told me they were for drill team, saber team, and clapping hands to thigh team.  Regardless if JROTC was cool with it, I still thought it looked dumb.  (with the B pronounced)
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: Private Investigator on February 15, 2012, 07:46:20 AM
Quote from: CAPsteve on February 10, 2012, 07:18:44 AM
I "Earned" in combat and service from the Air Force and Army.

Marines and Army so I know what you are saying. 98% of the time I wear just the three highest. You want to see everything go to the Wing Conference. But for a Squadron meeting three is enough   8) 
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on February 15, 2012, 08:47:06 AM
Quote from: kirbahashi on February 15, 2012, 03:40:34 AM
But someone had me rolling with their JROTC comment...  FTLOG, I was at my Son's winter drill-athon or whatever it's called.  His flight commander had a billion ribbons AND medals AND aguilletes (SP) on his shoulder cord.  He over exagerated his facing movements so his aguillete would hit his medals.   ::)

It was possibly me that said that.

I remember one of our dual-status JROTC/CAP cadets about 15 years ago.  Nice kid, really, but I didn't have the heart to tell him how overdone a four-wide rack with about five rows looked.  I tried to be tactful and tell him that he needed to take better care of his ribbons, because some of them were dirty, and some were frayed.

I remember he wore one that looked EXACTLY like the AF Good Conduct Medal ribbon...he said it was a JROTC ribbon.
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: flyboy53 on February 15, 2012, 12:27:01 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on February 15, 2012, 08:47:06 AM
Quote from: kirbahashi on February 15, 2012, 03:40:34 AM
But someone had me rolling with their JROTC comment...  FTLOG, I was at my Son's winter drill-athon or whatever it's called.  His flight commander had a billion ribbons AND medals AND aguilletes (SP) on his shoulder cord.  He over exagerated his facing movements so his aguillete would hit his medals.   ::)

It was possibly me that said that.

I remember one of our dual-status JROTC/CAP cadets about 15 years ago.  Nice kid, really, but I didn't have the heart to tell him how overdone a four-wide rack with about five rows looked.  I tried to be tactful and tell him that he needed to take better care of his ribbons, because some of them were dirty, and some were frayed.

I remember he wore one that looked EXACTLY like the AF Good Conduct Medal ribbon...he said it was a JROTC ribbon.

Don't see that ribbon in their current list. Anyway, it goes to show just how rediculous it can get with all this awards and decorations stuff.

In the original post, the member was commenting on the fact that a senior member would only wear his military ribbons. Why criticize the individual for his choice and obvious conservative appearance when the opposite borders on another extreme. Everyone seems so ripe with criticism.

It comes down to personal preference. As long as it conforms with the reg, why make an issue of it. These uniform posts always seem to split between those who want to pull the CAP away from anything military related and make it an organization of polo shirt-uniformed flying club members.

From an other perspective, I wish CAP ribbons had the same standard of quality of military ribbons. so they wouldn't soil or frey so easily. I wish also the membership wouldn't have to resort to things like E-bay to find certain ribbons. It was one of the reasons why I originally stopped wearing CAP ribbons. It took me more than a decade to chose to put just one row of the 14 I'm qualified to wear. I know an officer who earned a Falcon Award back in the day as a Spaatz cadet turned senior member. He still wears the original ribbon. You can imagine who it looks so many decades from when it was first awarded and that's sad.
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on February 15, 2012, 07:50:25 PM
Quote from: flyboy1 on February 15, 2012, 12:27:01 PM
I know an officer who earned a Falcon Award back in the day as a Spaatz cadet turned senior member. He still wears the original ribbon. You can imagine who it looks so many decades from when it was first awarded and that's sad.

In that case I would probably get a duplicate ribbon and put the original in a display case.

I often suggest to new cadets and NPS SM's that a good way to keep their ribbons in better shape is to give them a little blast of Scotchgard.

We had a guy in our unit - great, great guy and a real asset - who had prior service in the Navy, ANG and concurrent service in the USCG Aux.

He had a combination of active duty Navy and Air Force ribbons, State ribbons (which aren't supposed to be worn anyway), and active and Auxiliary Coast Guard ribbons...finally he just went to wearing his top Navy, AF, CG/Aux and CAP ribbons.
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: MSG Mac on February 15, 2012, 08:24:46 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on February 15, 2012, 08:47:06 AM
Quote from: kirbahashi on February 15, 2012, 03:40:34 AM
But someone had me rolling with their JROTC comment...  FTLOG, I was at my Son's winter drill-athon or whatever it's called.  His flight commander had a billion ribbons AND medals AND aguilletes (SP) on his shoulder cord.  He over exagerated his facing movements so his aguillete would hit his medals.   ::)

It was possibly me that said that.

I remember one of our dual-status JROTC/CAP cadets about 15 years ago.  Nice kid, really, but I didn't have the heart to tell him how overdone a four-wide rack with about five rows looked.  I tried to be tactful and tell him that he needed to take better care of his ribbons, because some of them were dirty, and some were frayed.

I remember he wore one that looked EXACTLY like the AF Good Conduct Medal ribbon...he said it was a JROTC ribbon.

And no one told him that he can only wear 3 (J)ROTC ribbons on the CAP uniform
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: SarDragon on February 15, 2012, 09:29:15 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't  the Falcon award a porcelain over metal ribbon? Didn't get dirty or fray.
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: BillB on February 15, 2012, 10:27:21 PM
Dave you are correct. However a senior that earned the falcon can't wear it. Why? becuase it's considered a cadet ribbon (even though earned as a senior) and order of presedence put's it in the middle of a row of ribbons. A metal ribbon can't be installed. (and would look stupid)
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: flyboy53 on February 15, 2012, 11:43:57 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on February 15, 2012, 09:29:15 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't  the Falcon award a porcelain over metal ribbon? Didn't get dirty or fray.

FYI...At some point it becomes this cloth ribbon.....
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: Ned on February 16, 2012, 12:07:05 AM
Quote from: BillB on February 15, 2012, 10:27:21 PM
Dave you are correct. However a senior that earned the falcon can't wear it. Why? becuase it's considered a cadet ribbon (even though earned as a senior) and order of presedence put's it in the middle of a row of ribbons. A metal ribbon can't be installed. (and would look stupid)

Non-concur.  Seniors who were awarded the Falcon Award may wear it.  See CAPR 39-3, Para 15 g (2) and Attachment 2.  Indeed, a regulations wonk would indicated that Falcon Award winners cannot wear their earned Spaatz awards since we can wear only the "Falcon Award or highest cadet award earned."

Putting the enamel "ribbon" on the rack just takes a little skill and creativity.  Which every Falcon awardee possesses in abundance.   8)

(And yes, most of us went to the cloth ribbon when it was later authorized.)


Ned Lee
Spaatz Award #356
Falcon Award
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: RiverAux on February 16, 2012, 12:20:58 AM
In response to the original post, the person obviously has the ability under our regs to wear just their military ribbons.  However, to make the conscious choice to spurn any CAP awards in favor of those awarded by another organization seems somewhat disrespectful to CAP.  Now, there are some CAP awards that aren't worth bragging about, but to say that none are worthy of being worn just doesn't seem right. 

Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: Hawk200 on February 16, 2012, 04:26:28 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on February 16, 2012, 12:20:58 AM
However, to make the conscious choice to spurn any CAP awards in favor of those awarded by another organization seems somewhat disrespectful to CAP.
What is your definition of "spurn?" Just curious.
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: GroundHawg on February 16, 2012, 09:33:26 AM
spurn/spərn/Verb: Reject with disdain.


Synonyms: reject - scorn - despise - kick
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: Private Investigator on February 16, 2012, 10:43:17 AM
Quote from: CyBorg on February 15, 2012, 08:47:06 AMI remember he wore one that looked EXACTLY like the AF Good Conduct Medal ribbon...he said it was a JROTC ribbon.

Several National Guard ribbons is identical to Senior Member ribbons.
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: PHall on February 16, 2012, 04:49:33 PM
Quote from: Private Investigator on February 16, 2012, 10:43:17 AM
Quote from: CyBorg on February 15, 2012, 08:47:06 AMI remember he wore one that looked EXACTLY like the AF Good Conduct Medal ribbon...he said it was a JROTC ribbon.

Several National Guard ribbons is identical to Senior Member ribbons.

There are 53 "National Guards" in the US. They all have "State" awards and decs. So yeah, there may be some overlap in designs.
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: Hawk200 on February 18, 2012, 07:18:27 PM
Quote from: GroundHawg on February 16, 2012, 09:33:26 AM
spurn/spərn/Verb: Reject with disdain.


Synonyms: reject - scorn - despise - kick
I was asking River what the term meant to him. Some people have different ideas.

I consider the definition above the appropriate one, and as such, I have never spurned my CAP decs. When I first rejoined, I threw my mil rack on my blues for the first few times, until I could get more CAP decs.

Had  run in with a cadet lt. that snidely told me, "I've got more ribbons than you!" He ended rather surprised, and a little miffed, a few months later when I showed up at a wing conference with my new rack. It wasn't an attempt to belittle him, but I think he tried to take it that way.
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: RiverAux on February 18, 2012, 09:20:40 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on February 18, 2012, 07:18:27 PM
When I first rejoined, I threw my mil rack on my blues for the first few times, until I could get more CAP decs.
Yeah, thats quite a bit different than the subject of this thread though.  No one is going to have a problem with that (assuming all the ribbons are authorized for the CAP uniform and paperwork backs them up, of course). 
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: abdsp51 on February 18, 2012, 09:25:31 PM
So AD ribbons are not authorized?
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: Flying Pig on February 18, 2012, 10:14:17 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on February 18, 2012, 07:18:27 PM
Quote from: GroundHawg on February 16, 2012, 09:33:26 AM
spurn/spərn/Verb: Reject with disdain.


Synonyms: reject - scorn - despise - kick
I was asking River what the term meant to him. Some people have different ideas.

I consider the definition above the appropriate one, and as such, I have never spurned my CAP decs. When I first rejoined, I threw my mil rack on my blues for the first few times, until I could get more CAP decs.

Had  run in with a cadet lt. that snidely told me, "I've got more ribbons than you!" He ended rather surprised, and a little miffed, a few months later when I showed up at a wing conference with my new rack. It wasn't an attempt to belittle him, but I think he tried to take it that way.

When I was a DCC, I had a cadet tell Col. Lewis Millet that he (the cadet) had more ribbons than he did.  Col Millet smiled and said "Yes you do son, Yes you do."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Millett (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Millett)
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: BillB on February 18, 2012, 10:49:36 PM
I went to a ceremoney at The Area V.A. Hospital a few years ago. CAP Cadets were showing up with 5-6 rows of ribbons. But one World War II veteran showed up with only two rows. But the top one was a pretty blue one with small white stars.
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: davidsinn on February 18, 2012, 11:34:19 PM
Quote from: BillB on February 18, 2012, 10:49:36 PM
I went to a ceremoney at The Area V.A. Hospital a few years ago. CAP Cadets were showing up with 5-6 rows of ribbons. But one World War II veteran showed up with only two rows. But the top one was a pretty blue one with small white stars.

Awesome. Did the cadets know what it was?
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: Abby.L on February 18, 2012, 11:40:42 PM
Quote from: davidsinn on February 18, 2012, 11:34:19 PM
Quote from: BillB on February 18, 2012, 10:49:36 PM
I went to a ceremoney at The Area V.A. Hospital a few years ago. CAP Cadets were showing up with 5-6 rows of ribbons. But one World War II veteran showed up with only two rows. But the top one was a pretty blue one with small white stars.

Awesome. Did the cadets know what it was?

I would hope the cadet knows what it is. Myself being a cadet, I have noticed a general lack of knowledge of military ribbons. While I do not claim that I know them all, I at least know what the Medal(Ribbon?) Of Honor looks like, and how we should respect the recipient.
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: Extremepredjudice on February 18, 2012, 11:54:57 PM
Quote from: Levilockling on February 18, 2012, 11:40:42 PM
Quote from: davidsinn on February 18, 2012, 11:34:19 PM
Quote from: BillB on February 18, 2012, 10:49:36 PM
I went to a ceremoney at The Area V.A. Hospital a few years ago. CAP Cadets were showing up with 5-6 rows of ribbons. But one World War II veteran showed up with only two rows. But the top one was a pretty blue one with small white stars.

Awesome. Did the cadets know what it was?

I would hope the cadet knows what it is. Myself being a cadet, I have noticed a general lack of knowledge of military ribbons. While I do not claim that I know them all, I at least know what the Medal(Ribbon?) Of Honor looks like, and how we should respect the recipient.
+1.

I know you salute MoH wearers, but do you call the room to attention, also?
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: Abby.L on February 19, 2012, 12:01:11 AM
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on February 18, 2012, 11:54:57 PM
Quote from: Levilockling on February 18, 2012, 11:40:42 PM
Quote from: davidsinn on February 18, 2012, 11:34:19 PM
Quote from: BillB on February 18, 2012, 10:49:36 PM
I went to a ceremoney at The Area V.A. Hospital a few years ago. CAP Cadets were showing up with 5-6 rows of ribbons. But one World War II veteran showed up with only two rows. But the top one was a pretty blue one with small white stars.

Awesome. Did the cadets know what it was?

I would hope the cadet knows what it is. Myself being a cadet, I have noticed a general lack of knowledge of military ribbons. While I do not claim that I know them all, I at least know what the Medal(Ribbon?) Of Honor looks like, and how we should respect the recipient.
+1.

I know you salute MoH wearers, but do you call the room to attention, also?

Ya know, I'm not entirely sure. I'd imagine so, but you may have to check that for us.... All I know is that most cadets wouldn't realize a MOH recipient was in the room if it slapped them in the face like a cold shower...  :angel:
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: JayT on February 19, 2012, 12:15:57 AM
Quote from: Levilockling on February 19, 2012, 12:01:11 AM
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on February 18, 2012, 11:54:57 PM
Quote from: Levilockling on February 18, 2012, 11:40:42 PM
Quote from: davidsinn on February 18, 2012, 11:34:19 PM
Quote from: BillB on February 18, 2012, 10:49:36 PM
I went to a ceremoney at The Area V.A. Hospital a few years ago. CAP Cadets were showing up with 5-6 rows of ribbons. But one World War II veteran showed up with only two rows. But the top one was a pretty blue one with small white stars.

Awesome. Did the cadets know what it was?

I would hope the cadet knows what it is. Myself being a cadet, I have noticed a general lack of knowledge of military ribbons. While I do not claim that I know them all, I at least know what the Medal(Ribbon?) Of Honor looks like, and how we should respect the recipient.
+1.

I know you salute MoH wearers, but do you call the room to attention, also?

Ya know, I'm not entirely sure. I'd imagine so, but you may have to check that for us.... All I know is that most cadets wouldn't realize a MOH recipient was in the room if it slapped them in the face like a cold shower...  :angel:

The saluting MoH winner is a matter of tradition rather then regulation.
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: SarDragon on February 19, 2012, 03:36:24 AM
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on February 18, 2012, 11:54:57 PM
Quote from: Levilockling on February 18, 2012, 11:40:42 PM
Quote from: davidsinn on February 18, 2012, 11:34:19 PM
Quote from: BillB on February 18, 2012, 10:49:36 PM
I went to a ceremoney at The Area V.A. Hospital a few years ago. CAP Cadets were showing up with 5-6 rows of ribbons. But one World War II veteran showed up with only two rows. But the top one was a pretty blue one with small white stars.

Awesome. Did the cadets know what it was?

I would hope the cadet knows what it is. Myself being a cadet, I have noticed a general lack of knowledge of military ribbons. While I do not claim that I know them all, I at least know what the Medal(Ribbon?) Of Honor looks like, and how we should respect the recipient.
+1.

I know you salute MoH wearers, but do you call the room to attention, also?

I was at a CPO pinning ceremony some years ago, and the guest of honor was John Finn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_William_Finn). When he arrived, the entire gathering was called to attention, and we didn't sit again until he did.
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: CAPsteve on February 19, 2012, 08:16:28 PM
CyBorg.

I agree with you.  I have 29 Military ribbons from 25 years of service in the AF, Army, and State Guard.  I have been in CAP for 9 months and now have "earned" 6 CAP ribbons. My problem is; when I wear all my ribbons(I have 5 Citations with the gold medal edging) and they cause the rack to bend.  I am thinkingabout  to wear that rack only on my dress blues and just maybe 6 on my shirt.

Does anyone know how to keep the rack from bending if I do wear all ribbons?  I though of the plastic racks, but are afraid they may bend and brake.  The prongs on the back are to short to place carboard behind it.  About half of those ribbons, I was awarded in combat.  I may give up some of the other ribbons, but not the combat one.

what do any of you think about this problem?
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: Eclipse on February 19, 2012, 08:26:18 PM
Run a piece of 7-10 mil lamination though the machine with nothing in the pouch.  This produces a transparent enforcer that can be cut to any shape you
need and will keep the ribbons from bending or pulling down the shirt.

Place your ribbons and badges on the shirt over a box with the plastic in place behind the shirt.  Punch the ribbon rack and badges into place through to the box.  This insures they don't move during placement and are aligned properly.  The enforcer should be large enough to encompass the whole
rack and both badges (if applicable), so that they are one unit on the shirt.

Carefully pull up the material with the enforcer and put on the frogs.

When you cut the enforcer, make sure you round the corners.

Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: CAPsteve on February 19, 2012, 08:30:09 PM
SarDragon,  You are correct about the MOH.  You salute the MOH, not the holder of the Medal.  The winner of the MOH receives the respect he deserves while wearing the MOH.

If he was not wearing the medal and you did not know him, he would just be another guy on the street, Right?  So, it's the MOH that is honored,   the persons deeds is what earned him the MOH.
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: CAPsteve on February 19, 2012, 08:33:33 PM
thanks Eclipse, i'll try that.
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: GroundHawg on February 19, 2012, 10:52:23 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on February 19, 2012, 08:26:18 PM
Run a piece of 7-10 mil lamination though the machine with nothing in the pouch.  This produces a transparent enforcer that can be cut to any shape you
need and will keep the ribbons from bending or pulling down the shirt.

Place your ribbons and badges on the shirt over a box with the plastic in place behind the shirt.  Punch the ribbon rack and badges into place through to the box.  This insures they don't move during placement and are aligned properly.  The enforcer should be large enough to encompass the whole
rack and both badges (if applicable), so that they are one unit on the shirt.

Carefully pull up the material with the enforcer and put on the frogs.

When you cut the enforcer, make sure you round the corners.

I have 3 with frames and it jacks up my rack as well. There was a tailor in Korea that would trim the frames and then glue them on top of the ribbon so the rack would stay flat. I havent tried this myself as the frames and ribbons are $3 a pop but it really looked good and the curved rack was no more.
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: MSG Mac on February 19, 2012, 11:00:36 PM
Quote from: JThemann on February 19, 2012, 12:15:57 AM
Quote from: Levilockling on February 19, 2012, 12:01:11 AM
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on February 18, 2012, 11:54:57 PM
Quote from: Levilockling on February 18, 2012, 11:40:42 PM
Quote from: davidsinn on February 18, 2012, 11:34:19 PM
Quote from: BillB on February 18, 2012, 10:49:36 PM
I went to a ceremoney at The Area V.A. Hospital a few years ago. CAP Cadets were showing up with 5-6 rows of ribbons. But one World War II veteran showed up with only two rows. But the top one was a pretty blue one with small white stars.

Awesome. Did the cadets know what it was?

I would hope the cadet knows what it is. Myself being a cadet, I have noticed a general lack of knowledge of military ribbons. While I do not claim that I know them all, I at least know what the Medal(Ribbon?) Of Honor looks like, and how we should respect the recipient.
+1.

I know you salute MoH wearers, but do you call the room to attention, also?

Ya know, I'm not entirely sure. I'd imagine so, but you may have to check that for us.... All I know is that most cadets wouldn't realize a MOH recipient was in the room if it slapped them in the face like a cold shower...  :angel:

The saluting MoH winner is a matter of tradition rather then regulation.

The individual recipients of the Medal of Honor didn't win them, they EARNED them. Please refer to them as Medal of Honor recepient or awardees.  I have know or met many, none of them considered it won.
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: lordmonar on February 19, 2012, 11:02:58 PM
Quote from: CAPsteve on February 19, 2012, 08:30:09 PM
SarDragon,  You are correct about the MOH.  You salute the MOH, not the holder of the Medal.

BS.....I don't slaute medals!

QuoteThe winner of the MOH receives the respect he deserves while wearing the MOH.
BS....the receipiant deserves the honors rendored for the service that he/she did that resulted in earning the MoH!

QuoteIf he was not wearing the medal and you did not know him, he would just be another guy on the street, Right?  So, it's the MOH that is honored,   the persons deeds is what earned him the MOH.
Your logic is a little squirly.......and again....you are honoring the person.  It is not like the the U.S. Flag.  I salute the flag...no matter who is carrying it down the road.  When the medal of honor is carried down the road...I'm not saluting it.  If it is not worn by someone duly awarded it then no  honors.

Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: Flying Pig on February 19, 2012, 11:24:47 PM
Medal of Honor winners are often referred to as "winners" "awardees" and most commonly "recipients" even by the military.  Semantics.  Dont get wrapped around the axle.  None are disrespectful.   

As far as who/what I am saluting, I was in a museum looking at a case with the Medal of Honor in it.  I guess I should have saluted the frame with the medal in it?   Negative.  You are very much saluting the person.  Without the person, its a piece of cloth and metal.  If you know a MoH winner on sight, but they arent wearing their medal you dont salute them?  I would hope not.  By your definition, you are putting a piece of cloth far above the person.  Seems a little backwards.  I never bought the idea that by saluting an officer you are saluting the rank.  No, you are not.  You very much ARE saluting the person.  The rank is nothing more than a visual symbol of authority.  They dont lose their authority when not in uniform.  Just like in police work.  I dont have to have my badge on my person to exercise the authority it gives me.  Im a Deputy whether I have it on or not.  A Major is a Major whether they have it on or not.  A Medal of Honor winner, awardee, recipient, earner, whatever, still has a Medal of Honor. The idea that a lifeless object deserves more respect than the human wearing it escapes me.  We salute the flag because of the PEOPLE it represents.  The flag itself is a piece of dyed cloth, usually made in China.  Lets not be so robotic about these things. 
Title: Re: Wear of military ribbons on AF style uniform
Post by: GTRanger on February 19, 2012, 11:31:17 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on February 19, 2012, 11:02:58 PM
Quote from: CAPsteve on February 19, 2012, 08:30:09 PM
SarDragon,  You are correct about the MOH.  You salute the MOH, not the holder of the Medal.

BS.....I don't slaute medals!

QuoteThe winner of the MOH receives the respect he deserves while wearing the MOH.
BS....the receipiant deserves the honors rendored for the service that he/she did that resulted in earning the MoH!

QuoteIf he was not wearing the medal and you did not know him, he would just be another guy on the street, Right?  So, it's the MOH that is honored,   the persons deeds is what earned him the MOH.
Your logic is a little squirly.......and again....you are honoring the person.  It is not like the the U.S. Flag.  I salute the flag...no matter who is carrying it down the road.  When the medal of honor is carried down the road...I'm not saluting it.  If it is not worn by someone duly awarded it then no  honors.

1+ for that. Well worded Sir.