And their Senior was where? This appeared on both MSN news and ABC News, allegedly in Virginia.
http://newsbcpcol.stb.s-msn.com/amnews/i/fd/e29c97349e6489fcbbd5d04a8e7b60/_h366_w650_m6_otrue_lfalse.jpg (http://newsbcpcol.stb.s-msn.com/amnews/i/fd/e29c97349e6489fcbbd5d04a8e7b60/_h366_w650_m6_otrue_lfalse.jpg)
I will bet that senior member stood in the middle of the road to take the picture without a safety vest...
???
Wow...... I'm thinking some cadets who do air soft "off duty"
It may be possible these cadets are "off duty" but one appears to be wearing a CAP shirt, I can see part of his white-on-blue name tag, another has the American flag patch on the same sleeve we wear it. Behind them I see what appears to be an ambulance cab. To me it probably was taken at a CAP activity...
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on May 11, 2014, 01:28:58 PM
It may be possible these cadets are "off duty" but one appears to be wearing a CAP shirt, I can see part of his white-on-blue name tag, another has the American flag patch on the same sleeve we wear it. Behind them I see what appears to be an ambulance cab. To me it probably was taken at a CAP activity...
They're CAP cadets responding to a balloon crash near Richmond, Virginia. Here's the story with the original picture as well as another that clearly shows the same group of cadets with even more CAP insignia visible (including C/SMSgt or C/CMSgt rank insignia on two of them):
http://news.yahoo.com/balloon-crash-looms-over-u-richmond-graduation-043203809.html (http://news.yahoo.com/balloon-crash-looms-over-u-richmond-graduation-043203809.html)
To answer the original question, I suspect that their senior member can be seen in the background near what appears to be a CAP van.
You guys can criticize their appearance if you wish (and yes, there are issues), but I'll leave that to their chain of command. I will say the following...
"Semper Vi, cadets!"
Wow.
:( >:(
Click on the lower photo that NC alludes to. Read the comments. Most are negative but there are some people out there who do know about us, and are willing to bat...
:)
I just had to respond to some... And my anger came through...
I guess I get too emotional rather quick...
There is at least one picture of a cadet with a tactical vest and magazines pouches. Magazine pouches?! Didn't we just have two threads discussing the issue of ground teams carrying weapons? What useful purpose do magazine pouches serve besides holding magazines? This does not help our public image.
Quote from: NC Hokie on May 11, 2014, 01:51:36 PM
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on May 11, 2014, 01:28:58 PM
It may be possible these cadets are "off duty" but one appears to be wearing a CAP shirt, I can see part of his white-on-blue name tag, another has the American flag patch on the same sleeve we wear it. Behind them I see what appears to be an ambulance cab. To me it probably was taken at a CAP activity...
They're CAP cadets responding to a balloon crash near Richmond, Virginia. Here's the story with the original picture as well as another that clearly shows the same group of cadets with even more CAP insignia visible (including C/SMSgt or C/CMSgt rank insignia on two of them):
http://news.yahoo.com/balloon-crash-looms-over-u-richmond-graduation-043203809.html (http://news.yahoo.com/balloon-crash-looms-over-u-richmond-graduation-043203809.html)
To answer the original question, I suspect that their senior member can be seen in the background near what appears to be a CAP van.
You guys can criticize their appearance if you wish (and yes, there are issues), but I'll leave that to their chain of command. I will say the following...
"Semper Vi, cadets!"
Then don't get upset when other organizations call us a bunch of unprofessional rescue wannabes.
We're not exactly presenting our best image here.
Quote from: PHall on May 11, 2014, 03:11:52 PM
Then don't get upset when other organizations call us a bunch of unprofessional rescue wannabes.
We're not exactly presenting our best image here.
Whatever happened to praise in public and criticize in private?
Again, their CHAIN OF COMMAND can address the uniform issues, and I hope it does, but that does not detract from the fact that these cadets answered a call for help while many of their peers spent a beautiful Saturday indoors playing Minecraft and updating their Facebook status.
I second NC's statement.
When I saw the first message, I did make one comment but after realizing they were on a real mission I stopped criticizing them. And to answer Texas comment, what is wrong with wearing ammo pouches? If it can carry ammo, it can carry survival gear, first aid supplies, and so on. If you are going to make issue of the ammo pouch, so can you of almost any vest.
We use ammo pouches in the Army for a lot of things... Holding snacks is my favorite :clap:
The only thing I am going to say is this: The team responding knows what sort of uniform and hats they are authorized to wear. I foresee a memo from on high soon regarding the headgear sported by the two cadets(?) in the picture.
Has anyone had their Ground Team folks just wear the BBDU, cadets included?
Quote from: Tim Day on May 11, 2014, 05:57:21 PM
Has anyone had their Ground Team folks just wear the BBDU, cadets included?
Reason? ???
I don't see much wrong with it. Boonies are allowed in the field. The tac vest is nothing new, seen tons of them at a Ranger weekend.
Quote from: Devil Doc on May 11, 2014, 09:40:07 PM
I don't see much wrong with it. Boonies are allowed in the field. The tac vest is nothing new, seen tons of them at a Ranger weekend.
Sorry, but the only boonie hat authorized is for the BBDU, not the BDUs. The other gear I have no issues with, but 2 seem to be disregarding the safety vest altogether.
Quote from: PHall on May 11, 2014, 05:58:32 PM
Quote from: Tim Day on May 11, 2014, 05:57:21 PM
Has anyone had their Ground Team folks just wear the BBDU, cadets included?
Reason? ???
To avoid situations like this where the first thing people think of when they see teenagers tramping through dense vegetation and swamp searching for victims of a tragedy is "Hey, they're not complying with 39-1."
Seriously. No other SAR group judges us on what we wear, except they can't believe we let people wear cotton.
The scarves are probably not justifiable. But a wide brimmed hat protects from the sun. I wear a climbing helmet with my head lamp on SAR missions. I also wear gaiters and civilian lightweight gortex boots. And a red backpack like NESA recommends. That's not an authorized uniform either.
Soaring activities have their own officially blessed made up uniform (shorts and any Tshirt that identifies with CAP). Why should GSAR be any more restrictive than soaring?
Is being an effective searcher not important? Maybe worrying more about how we look than being an effective searcher is our problem.
Maybe we should follow the soaring model and have folks just wear appropriate outdoor clothing with a cap patch or nametag and get on with the business of finding people.
Quote from: TexasCadet on May 11, 2014, 03:10:54 PM
There is at least one picture of a cadet with a tactical vest and magazines pouches. Magazine pouches?! Didn't we just have two threads discussing the issue of ground teams carrying weapons? What useful purpose do magazine pouches serve besides holding magazines? This does not help our public image.
????
We have been using ammo pouches to hold our GT gear since the dawn of time.
I use my three and two mag pouches to hold my EF-johnson, my GPS, my survival kit, my first aid kit.
It is just a pouch that happens to be able to hold a M-4 30 round magazine or two.
Gardening hats Boonies are not allowed in any circumstance with the USAF-style uniform, nor are the boots
seen on the cadet in the front. There is no issue with the tac gear, beyond it being somewhat ill-suited to the
duty, but more importantly they are literally walking along a roadway without the requisite ANSI safety vests as now required.
Any blame for these cadets being held out in public lies squarely on their commander and the ground team leader
who allowed them to deploy looking like that.
They have time for affections like shemaghs, but not to get the safety equipment required?
If their wing CC is watching their should be a number of qualifications suspended pending remedial training in procedures,
not to mention some unit visits as it is unlikely these types of violations tend to be endemic to a unit or activity.
Whether or not they are on an actual mission is irrelevant to the discussion of procedures and policies, nor is
any discussion of "what CAP should allow. Few would argue that the uniform policies are not a mess, especially
in regards to "function vs. affectation", however the regs are the regs.
Regs are regs... but currently they are contradictory, leaving room to allow people to wear things that keep them safe and effective as searchers. You don't want to be wearing combat boots without gaiters in the swamp, and that's where you have to go quite frequently. BDU boonie hats and desert scarves are a little harder for me to justify, although I know SAR personnel who believe in them. Personally I'd rather they be wearing a high-viz orange or light blue hat or better yet, a helmet (blue is highly visible in the woods since it's not a natural color).
But the problem is solvable and not without precedent.
Let's just abandon BDU as a SAR uniform altogether. The official CAP Soaring Program uniform is shorts or long pants and a T-shirt identifying the member as part of CAP. A workable SAR uniform could be any appropriate outdoor clothing with some marking that indicates the member is associated with CAP (maybe even just a ballcap or wide-brim, non-BDU hat marked "CAP").
That would actually fit in very well with our local SAR groups and allow our people to procure discount outdoor wear that keeps them safe and effective (and which they could also wear at non-CAP events). The rationale is the same as for the Soaring Uniform: practicality and safety.
Want to wear the BDU? Fully comply with 39-1. Ok with civilian clothes? Wear a hat or helmet with CAP markings and appropriate clothing for the mission.
Not another post asking to wear another uniform. Then why call them uniforms? We should start asking NHQ to rename CAPR 39-1 the Non-Uniform Regulation.
Practical? That is what the BDU is. Economic. Having yet another set of clothes - I will not call that a uniform - increases costs for members. And no, blue is not more visible in the woods. It can become hidden in the shadows.
Considering that the vast majority of ES training and missions are USAF-funded, the likelyhood of that even being
considered, let alone approved, is pretty slim.
No organization on CAP's scale should be doing work in the public eye without a clear identifier in the
form of some uniform clothing.
Where that would land is debatable - most agencies that do the kind of work we do are dressed
in khakis and golf shirts, so that is certainly a reasonable place to start.
Tac pants and a reasonable long-sleeve shirt with an insignia on it, would certainly go a long way towards fixing this
issue. Heck, just fall onto jeans with an ANSI yellow long sleeve shirt and yellow hat and get your stuff at Menard's.
A team of anything dressed in the same clothes and colors would be preferable to the mis-mash we have to day,
and if NHQ is really re-working the SAR curriculum, some attention needs to be given to what is appropriate
for carrying the gear.
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on May 12, 2014, 02:06:57 AM
Not another post asking to wear another uniform. Then why call them uniforms? We should start asking NHQ to rename CAPR 39-1 the Non-Uniform Regulation.
As you may recall, the proper,
approved* term is "multiform".
* I approved it last year.
At first, I thought this was going to turn into the "40 page Cadetstuff.org Incorrect Uniform Wear" thread. However, it has made the turn for the "which uniform should we be wearing" thread.
Quote from: Tim Day on May 11, 2014, 10:38:38 PM
The scarves are probably not justifiable. But a wide brimmed hat protects from the sun. I wear a climbing helmet with my head lamp on SAR missions. I also wear gaiters and civilian lightweight gortex boots. And a red backpack like NESA recommends. That's not an authorized uniform either.
As an aside, NESA does not recommend a specific color of backpack. We do sell a red backpack as a merchandize item, but it is not designed for 24 hour wear.
Does that one Cadet have BROWN boots on? Like, not even military boots, but like Timberland trail hiking boots?
Quote from: husker on May 12, 2014, 02:48:10 AM
Quote from: Tim Day on May 11, 2014, 10:38:38 PM
The scarves are probably not justifiable. But a wide brimmed hat protects from the sun. I wear a climbing helmet with my head lamp on SAR missions. I also wear gaiters and civilian lightweight gortex boots. And a red backpack like NESA recommends. That's not an authorized uniform either.
As an aside, NESA does not recommend a specific color of backpack. We do sell a red backpack as a merchandize item, but it is not designed for 24 hour wear.
Yes, you do. At least in your published gear list. Red or orange.
Edit: I apologize for the tone of this response. I realize the course materials are dated and may not reflect your current recommendations. I think NESA could play a very helpful role in the standardizing of our SAR "uniform" in a way that takes into account unique demands of the various environments where we work.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 12, 2014, 02:08:48 AM
Considering that the vast majority of ES training and missions are USAF-funded, the likelyhood of that even being
considered, let alone approved, is pretty slim.
No organization on CAP's scale should be doing work in the public eye without a clear identifier in the
form of some uniform clothing.
Where that would land is debatable - most agencies that do the kind of work we do are dressed
in khakis and golf shirts, so that is certainly a reasonable place to start.
Tac pants and a reasonable long-sleeve shirt with an insignia on it, would certainly go a long way towards fixing this
issue. Heck, just fall onto jeans with an ANSI yellow long sleeve shirt and yellow hat and get your stuff at Menard's.
A team of anything dressed in the same clothes and colors would be preferable to the mis-mash we have to day,
and if NHQ is really re-working the SAR curriculum, some attention needs to be given to what is appropriate
for carrying the gear.
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on May 12, 2014, 02:06:57 AM
Not another post asking to wear another uniform. Then why call them uniforms? We should start asking NHQ to rename CAPR 39-1 the Non-Uniform Regulation.
As you may recall, the proper, approved* term is "multiform".
* I approved it last year.
Our Soaring program is also Air Force funded. And no, BDUs without gaiters, helmets, packable raingear, and other PPE are not practical, at least not hear in Virginia. Not my opinion, our state SAR folks' list / recommendations.
EDIT:
Sorry, Eclipse, somehow I missed your line about the khakis and golf shirts. That's reasonable. In fact, why not gray trou and dark blue shirt aligned with our current gray/blues, and retain the requirement for an ANSI 2 safety vest.
To add:
Most of the groups here in VA specify "no jeans or 100% cotton clothing" and they have required uniforms, which their members agree not to wear unless on a call-out or officially representing their specific group.
In my early GSAR training, it was pointed out to me that BDUs and combat boots by themselves are inadequate for SAR. Most of my instructors changed into good hiking boots prior to field operations. I was skeptical of the uniform "enhancements" as well, but after a few missions on the ground I realized that I needed civilian water-proof, breathable, hiking boots (or their very expensive black equivalents) and gaiters. It doesn't take many exercises where our members with their issue combat boots are dropping out with foot problems while the state SAR folks with a range of footwear are still going strong to realize the need.
Team leaders are required to carry a helmet, and team members are strongly encouraged to carry one. Evac crews are required to wear helmets for their protection and that of the subject. When someone yells "rock" everyone leans in and uses their helmet-clad noggins to shield the subject. The SAR groups typically don't require everyone to wear one all the time - they bring along a bag of helmets for the evac crew just in case - but the expectation is that everyone who commits to the team will buy one eventually.
All that said, I think we need to find a balance of environmentally-appropriate personal protective equipment (PPE) and the trend to customize beyond what's really required. It may be that a list of authorized PPE could be generated by each Wing and reviewed by the Region, with Regional lists reviewed by the NUC.
I agree that teams should present a consistent appearance and be identifiable as CAP members. Again, I've not heard anyone advocate scarves (although wide-brimmed hats are certainly better sunprotection than ballcaps / patrol caps) and I don't know that they'd make the PPE list.
Again, there is good precedent for uniform modifications to suit the environment, both in the military and in CAP (Soaring Program, for example).
The only thing I see wrong is not wearing the ANSI Vest, and the cadet with Black and Brown Boots. Red or Orange backpack is on the "Gear" list, but it also states any backpack or ruck sack. I personally have an ACU backpack with Internal Frame, and use an old school Load Bearing Vest. I put my Orange vest on under my LBV, I wear my Orange Hat and Orange Shirt, that is alot of orange to be seen.
Quote from: Devil Doc on May 12, 2014, 12:23:15 PM
The only thing I see wrong is not wearing the ANSI Vest, and the cadet with Black and Brown Boots. Red or Orange backpack is on the "Gear" list, but it also states any backpack or ruck sack. I personally have an ACU backpack with Internal Frame, and use an old school Load Bearing Vest. I put my Orange vest on under my LBV, I wear my Orange Hat and Orange Shirt, that is alot of orange to be seen.
I think it's reasonable to allow civilian hiking boots in certain environments. If members are going to invest in gortex boots, they may as well be able to wear them hiking. Civilian hiking boots are much more commercially available, thus less expensive, thus less of a barrier to entry.
As you know, Doc, the military prescribes civilian running shoes to be worn with the uniform for people with foot injuries - not exactly the same situation, but evidence that even the RM has a capacity to recognize "practical and safe".
My concern is that the fact that cadets were seen on national TV wearing BDU boonie hats and desert scarves may impact your use of an orange hat and orange shirt (which technically is just as egregious as wearing brown hiking boots) and my use of a blue climbing helmet, gaiters, and civilian hiking boots (and the red gortex rain and wind shell I pack).
The unauthorized items we're wearing are based on practical experience working in our respective environments; they make us safer and more effective searchers. But I do think a way needs to be found to standardize what we wear within reason, and I understand the predicament of our leadership now that it's more and more likely that our members will find themselves on national TV.
Quote from: NC Hokie on May 11, 2014, 01:51:36 PM
"Semper Vi, cadets!"
Oh no... CAP members don't actually say that now do they?
I thought wearing Orange hat and shirt was Authorized? Yes, I do understand we need to wear aftermarket boots, im old school and wear military jungle boots, im too cheap to wear anything else. Why is everybody disgruntled about the BDU in a Search and Rescue environment? Ive seen numrous SAR teams wear "Cammo" when doing there searches. Ive actually never seen a team "Uniform" either. They have the recommended gear, but alot of them wear different things, for there own creature comfort. I dont care what we wear, as long as we are doing the techniques correctly, and find our target.
On second Thought, I do not see why we do not get used more. I have hear Numrous stories where CAP found the "Target" within a few hours when other team were searching for days, and of course CAP did not get credit.
Boonie hats with the bdu are specifical prohibited by the AF. CAP asked and was told no. CAP pulled the safety card and the AF said nice try, but no.
Desert scarves have never been authorized and, given the environment they are in, are an affectation, not a necessary gear item.
Hiking boots instead of black combat boots on a ground team sortie? Fine. I recommend trying to find black or dark colored ones. The same boots at a unit meeting? Not fine.
Quote from: Devil Doc on May 12, 2014, 01:16:16 PM
I thought wearing Orange hat and shirt was Authorized?
In some wings, but not throughout CAP.
QuoteWhy is everybody disgruntled about the BDU in a Search and Rescue environment? Ive seen numrous SAR teams wear "Cammo" when doing there searches. Ive actually never seen a team "Uniform" either. They have the recommended gear, but alot of them wear different things, for there own creature comfort. I dont care what we wear, as long as we are doing the techniques correctly, and find our target.
I tend to agree. There are few who wear all cotton bdus. Most have some sort of cotton/poly or cotton/nylon blend.
QuoteOn second Thought, I do not see why we do not get used more. I have hear Numrous stories where CAP found the "Target" within a few hours when other team were searching for days, and of course CAP did not get credit.
CAP has had some less than stellar performers show up without proper gear or clothing in multiple instances. Also, some CAP members have had the "I'm with the Feds and I'm taking over" mentality. Granted, this may be ancient history, but institutions have long memories. Also, some SAR agencies and sheriff's are very protective of their turf and view CAP as 'outsiders'.
Quote from: Tim Day on May 12, 2014, 12:43:15 PM
.......
The unauthorized items we're wearing are based on practical experience working in our respective environments; they make us safer and more effective searchers. But I do think a way needs to be found to standardize what we wear within reason, and I understand the predicament of our leadership now that it's more and more likely that our members will find themselves on national TV.
The problem here, these issues (the cadets in question) aren't for safety and effectiveness......they are for tactikewl. CAP is not the only agency with these issues. Most every fire ems or sar agency paid or volunteer has the same thing happen. (So let's not act like they are all some almighty powerfull transcended individuals when it comes to gear and uniforms issues)
I have seen sar teams that try and look more like SWAT. Just about every fire dept in my area about 10-12 years ago switched from a "ben franklin" style helmet to a "traditional" style..why?.... because FDNY wears it. Many started wearing radio staps job shirts for the same reason.
If you want better uniforms or gear the simple answer is pay for it. They make bdus that are not 100% cotton. They make black boots in gortex. Its not the boots. Otherwise somehow I doubt military members who's job it is to walk far under heavy loads in difficult terrain and hash conditions would be effective. Its usually poor fitted ill suited boots that CAP members choose for looks rather than function. ( I have been wearing military style or issue boots for over 27 years and have never had problems....I have had different boots for different tasks, meetings/garrison wear, fieldwear, hot weather, wet weather, cold weather or some that are multi role)
MK
Quote from: LSThiker on May 12, 2014, 02:32:18 AM
At first, I thought this was going to turn into the "40 page Cadetstuff.org Incorrect Uniform Wear" thread. However, it has made the turn for the "which uniform should we be wearing" thread.
I've got most of those pictures, from all 3-4 topics backed up somewhere
...if you'd like.
Quote from: Flying Pig on May 12, 2014, 12:54:19 PM
Quote from: NC Hokie on May 11, 2014, 01:51:36 PM
"Semper Vi, cadets!"
Oh no... CAP members don't actually say that now do they?
Well, I don't run around saying it, but I've heard cadets say it and thought it appropriate in this case.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on May 12, 2014, 01:49:15 PM
Quote from: LSThiker on May 12, 2014, 02:32:18 AM
At first, I thought this was going to turn into the "40 page Cadetstuff.org Incorrect Uniform Wear" thread. However, it has made the turn for the "which uniform should we be wearing" thread.
I've got most of those pictures, from all 3-4 topics backed up somewhere
...if you'd like.
Which version of the thread. I think there was 3 versions: the first was lost in the 1st great data dump. The second was locked. The 3rd was also locked, but I think was lost in the 2nd great data dump. If I recall correctly. It has been a while. :)
Quote from: sarmed1 on May 12, 2014, 01:46:45 PM
Quote from: Tim Day on May 12, 2014, 12:43:15 PM
.......
The unauthorized items we're wearing are based on practical experience working in our respective environments; they make us safer and more effective searchers. But I do think a way needs to be found to standardize what we wear within reason, and I understand the predicament of our leadership now that it's more and more likely that our members will find themselves on national TV.
The problem here, these issues (the cadets in question) aren't for safety and effectiveness......they are for tactikewl. CAP is not the only agency with these issues. Most every fire ems or sar agency paid or volunteer has the same thing happen. (So let's not act like they are all some almighty powerfull transcended individuals when it comes to gear and uniforms issues)
You're speculating as to their motives, but you're probably right. I agree on the issue of the other fire EMS / SAR folks. The SERT folks wore 3' machetes... which I thought were ridiculous but actually turned out useful on a swampy area task.
Quote from: sarmed1 on May 12, 2014, 01:46:45 PM
If you want better uniforms or gear the simple answer is pay for it. They make bdus that are not 100% cotton. They make black boots in gortex. Its not the boots. Otherwise somehow I doubt military members who's job it is to walk far under heavy loads in difficult terrain and hash conditions would be effective. Its usually poor fitted ill suited boots that CAP members choose for looks rather than function. ( I have been wearing military style or issue boots for over 27 years and have never had problems....I have had different boots for different tasks, meetings/garrison wear, fieldwear, hot weather, wet weather, cold weather or some that are multi role)
MK
Agree, although, black gortex boots are more expensive and less available than good civilian hiking boots. They are less likely to be available in your size via Sierra Trading post or equivalent discount outlets. And no one really cares what color your boots are when you're searching. Most boots turned swamp-muck brown after a task or two anyway, and not a single SAR group present commented on our appearance.
I don't think we should have unrestricted options - all of the VA SAR groups I have encountered have some kind of dress code if not uniform. I just think our PPE list should be reasonably flexible and adapted for the environment where we're likely to be working.
Quote from: arajca on May 12, 2014, 01:30:44 PM
Boonie hats with the bdu are specifical prohibited by the AF. CAP asked and was told no. CAP pulled the safety card and the AF said nice try, but no.
Except in the Soaring program, where you can wear any hat with your shorts and CAP T-shirt as an official CAP uniform. For safety and practicality reasons.
Quote from: Tim Day on May 12, 2014, 02:10:52 PM
Quote from: arajca on May 12, 2014, 01:30:44 PM
Boonie hats with the bdu are specifical prohibited by the AF. CAP asked and was told no. CAP pulled the safety card and the AF said nice try, but no.
Except in the Soaring program, where you can wear any hat with your shorts and CAP T-shirt as an official CAP uniform. For safety and practicality reasons.
Which is why I said
with the bdu. If you're wearing your shorts and CAP t-shirt, you are not wearing the bdu.
Quote from: Tim Day on May 12, 2014, 02:10:52 PM
I don't think we should have unrestricted options - all of the VA SAR groups I have encountered have some kind of dress code if not uniform. I just think our PPE list should be reasonably flexible and adapted for the environment where we're likely to be working.
The problem is too many members, seniors and cadets, don't understand the difference between what is accepted in the field and what is not acceptable at a meeting. I have seen too many of the "elite" or "hard-core" CAP GT folks wearing items that are specifically prohibited by reg at regular meetings and events with no field component. Their justification - It's what we wear in the field so it's OK at a meeting or I just don't care what the reg says, I'm wearing this.
Why is it necessary to wear a desert scarf in VA rather than have it in a pocket or pouch?
Quote from: NC Hokie on May 12, 2014, 01:59:51 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on May 12, 2014, 12:54:19 PM
Quote from: NC Hokie on May 11, 2014, 01:51:36 PM
"Semper Vi, cadets!"
Oh no... CAP members don't actually say that now do they?
Well, I don't run around saying it, but I've heard cadets say it and thought it appropriate in this case.
Well, the sad thing about this... is that regardless of what (if anything) these cadets actually did, it was overshadowed by the fact that some SM let them walk around like this. We can spend all day pointing out what other agency wear and don't wear. The issue here is that we have an agency (CAP) who uses kids (cadets) who show up looking like Airsoft commandos. In the public safety arena Id bet money this photo is being laughed at far more than its being applauded.
SM: "Look gents, I appreciate the motivation but lose the scarves and the desert assault gear"
Cadets : "But But But.. this stuff was expensive sir."
SM "Well, then I hope you saved the receipt because you could have bought the appropriate gear for 1/2 of what you paid for that stuff. Look around.... do you see anyone else wearing their authentic Afghani tribal head scarf? No? Lose it."
Quote from: arajca on May 12, 2014, 02:14:01 PM
Quote from: Tim Day on May 12, 2014, 02:10:52 PM
Quote from: arajca on May 12, 2014, 01:30:44 PM
Boonie hats with the bdu are specifical prohibited by the AF. CAP asked and was told no. CAP pulled the safety card and the AF said nice try, but no.
Except in the Soaring program, where you can wear any hat with your shorts and CAP T-shirt as an official CAP uniform. For safety and practicality reasons.
Which is why I said with the bdu. If you're wearing your shorts and CAP t-shirt, you are not wearing the bdu.
Yes you did. Sorry about that. Which gets back to my thought regarding a SAR uniform other-than-BDU if we want to be particularly strict wrt the Air Force-style uniforms even in the field.
Quote from: arajca on May 12, 2014, 02:14:01 PM
Quote from: Tim Day on May 12, 2014, 02:10:52 PM
I don't think we should have unrestricted options - all of the VA SAR groups I have encountered have some kind of dress code if not uniform. I just think our PPE list should be reasonably flexible and adapted for the environment where we're likely to be working.
The problem is too many members, seniors and cadets, don't understand the difference between what is accepted in the field and what is not acceptable at a meeting. I have seen too many of the "elite" or "hard-core" CAP GT folks wearing items that are specifically prohibited by reg at regular meetings and events with no field component. Their justification - It's what we wear in the field so it's OK at a meeting or I just don't care what the reg says, I'm wearing this.
Why is it necessary to wear a desert scarf in VA rather than have it in a pocket or pouch?
Agree. I can't answer the desert scarf question, as I've yet to hear anyone associated with SAR training advocate for their wearing. And by the way, I've seen aviators flaunting uniform regs, too... though that is outside the scope of this thread, I think.
I am curious if the guy standing next to the white van (not the person in the white shirt) is the presiding senior member. I am pretty sure that the photo was not taken by a senior member, but rather a news correspondent.
Quote from: LSThiker on May 12, 2014, 02:05:13 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on May 12, 2014, 01:49:15 PM
Quote from: LSThiker on May 12, 2014, 02:32:18 AM
At first, I thought this was going to turn into the "40 page Cadetstuff.org Incorrect Uniform Wear" thread. However, it has made the turn for the "which uniform should we be wearing" thread.
I've got most of those pictures, from all 3-4 topics backed up somewhere
...if you'd like.
Which version of the thread. I think there was 3 versions: the first was lost in the 1st great data dump. The second was locked. The 3rd was also locked, but I think was lost in the 2nd great data dump. If I recall correctly. It has been a while. :)
Going back to before the dumps.
Quote from: Flying Pig on May 12, 2014, 02:26:25 PM
Quote from: NC Hokie on May 12, 2014, 01:59:51 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on May 12, 2014, 12:54:19 PM
Quote from: NC Hokie on May 11, 2014, 01:51:36 PM
"Semper Vi, cadets!"
Oh no... CAP members don't actually say that now do they?
Well, I don't run around saying it, but I've heard cadets say it and thought it appropriate in this case.
Well, the sad thing about this... is that regardless of what (if anything) these cadets actually did, it was overshadowed by the fact that some SM let them walk around like this. We can spend all day pointing out what other agency wear and don't wear. The issue here is that we have an agency (CAP) who uses kids (cadets) who show up looking like Airsoft commandos. In the public safety arena Id bet money this photo is being laughed at far more than its being applauded.
SM: "Look gents, I appreciate the motivation but lose the scarves and the desert assault gear"
Cadets : "But But But.. this stuff was expensive sir."
SM "Well, then I hope you saved the receipt because you could have bought the appropriate gear for 1/2 of what you paid for that stuff. Look around.... do you see anyone else wearing their authentic Afghani tribal head scarf? No? Lose it."
But they paid around $10 for it! Wasted resources! You can't make them NOT wear it.
http://www.ghostarmytacticalstore.com/arabdesertshemaghheadwrap.aspx (http://www.ghostarmytacticalstore.com/arabdesertshemaghheadwrap.aspx)
Quote from: Flying Pig on May 12, 2014, 02:26:25 PM
The issue here is that we have an agency (CAP) who uses kids (cadets) who show up looking like Airsoft commandos. In the public safety arena Id bet money this photo is being laughed at far more than its being applauded.
Maybe. But what I heard from the SAR, LE, and EMS folks on scene was gratitude - for the ground tasks and especially for the communications support.
The Cadets showed up, they performed, they were appreciated. Everything else is pure fluff. If I were in their Chain of Command my next step would be to have each of the Cadets and Senior Members to write up a short After Action Report/Lessons Learned from their experience. What went right, what was not so right and could have been done better, what additional/other training would have helped them, What equipment did they have they did not need, what equipment did they not have they did need.
These statements could then be compiled with command notes added to address uniform issues (if any) into teaching learning points for the entire Squadron/Region. There is no need to publically bust their chops for trying to be of service to others.
Quote from: Cliff_Chambliss on May 12, 2014, 03:43:58 PM
The Cadets showed up, they performed, they were appreciated. Everything else is pure fluff. If I were in their Chain of Command my next step would be to have each of the Cadets and Senior Members to write up a short After Action Report/Lessons Learned from their experience. What went right, what was not so right and could have been done better, what additional/other training would have helped them, What equipment did they have they did not need, what equipment did they not have they did need.
These statements could then be compiled with command notes added to address uniform issues (if any) into teaching learning points for the entire Squadron/Region. There is no need to publically bust their chops for trying to be of service to others.
Sometimes teens need a bit of balloon deflation though.
-BTDT former teen.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on May 12, 2014, 03:47:45 PM
Quote from: Cliff_Chambliss on May 12, 2014, 03:43:58 PM
The Cadets showed up, they performed, they were appreciated. Everything else is pure fluff. If I were in their Chain of Command my next step would be to have each of the Cadets and Senior Members to write up a short After Action Report/Lessons Learned from their experience. What went right, what was not so right and could have been done better, what additional/other training would have helped them, What equipment did they have they did not need, what equipment did they not have they did need.
These statements could then be compiled with command notes added to address uniform issues (if any) into teaching learning points for the entire Squadron/Region. There is no need to publically bust their chops for trying to be of service to others.
Sometimes teens need a bit of balloon deflation though.
-BTDT former teen.
Besides the total unprofessional inappropriateness of your comment considering the three human beings who lost their lives in this balloon mishap, a little self-righteousness reduction might be in order for so-called adults who want to bust the chops of teens that are actually out serving their community.
Quote from: Cliff_Chambliss on May 12, 2014, 03:43:58 PM
... If I were in their Chain of Command my next step would be to have each of the Cadets and Senior Members to write up a short After Action Report/Lessons Learned from their experience. What went right, what was not so right and could have been done better, what additional/other training would have helped them, What equipment did they have they did not need, what equipment did they not have they did need.
These statements could then be compiled with command notes added to address uniform issues (if any) into teaching learning points for the entire Squadron/Region. There is no need to publically bust their chops for trying to be of service to others.
:clap:
What I'm taking away from this thread is a mixed bag. Some are saying we did a good job and are appreciated. Some, including me, while appreciative of the response, are more worried about the public perception more than the actual job at hand. Some are just concerned about the fact that this picture or pictures will do nothing other than harm CAP's public image by having these hard-kore tak-ti-kewl GI Joe/Jane wannabes running around acting like...well, like camouflaged teenagers doing what any teen would do when put in a uniform with military gear.
The knee-jerk gut reaction is valid, in my opinion. First impressions of teens wandering around wearing shemaghs (did I spell that right?) and tactical gear and boonie hats at an incident can be negative. Had I been the team leader, I would have told them to dress appropriately for the occasion because EYES ARE EVERYWHERE. This is a prime example. On any other day, these cadets would think nothing of wearing this type of gear, but now that John Q Public sees them as potential "terrorists in camo" or "military wannabes", they are going to get administratively smacked down at some point in the near future, and a whole new set of dicta will probably be issued by their Wing, Region, or NHQ regarding proper uniform and equipment. You can't argue with photographic evidence and you can't unsee that sort of thing.
These cadets DID take the time away from their Pac-Man and the latest K-Tel 8-track to perform a mission. We can't lose sight of that. We also can't lose sight of the fact that every time we go out in public, former military, former CAP members, people who hate kids, prospective members, and well-intentioned folks will always be watching us and what we do and how we dress. Since we don't wear a currently issued military uniform, we get scrutinized. Some think we're some kind of Mountain Men militia trainees or whatnot. We can't give anyone an excuse to downgrade us based on our appearance and actions.
The past incidents, such as the Massachusetts Smokey-bear TI cadet, should stand out as examples of what not to do or tolerate. Yes, we can accomplish our mission, but not at the cost of negative public opinion.
/rant
Quote from: usafaux2004 on May 12, 2014, 03:47:45 PM
Quote from: Cliff_Chambliss on May 12, 2014, 03:43:58 PM
The Cadets showed up, they performed, they were appreciated. Everything else is pure fluff. If I were in their Chain of Command my next step would be to have each of the Cadets and Senior Members to write up a short After Action Report/Lessons Learned from their experience. What went right, what was not so right and could have been done better, what additional/other training would have helped them, What equipment did they have they did not need, what equipment did they not have they did need.
These statements could then be compiled with command notes added to address uniform issues (if any) into teaching learning points for the entire Squadron/Region. There is no need to publically bust their chops for trying to be of service to others.
Sometimes teens need a bit of balloon deflation though.
-BTDT former teen.
Too soon. :-[
Hehe......saw this same news clip yesterday.
Maybe a little on the extreme end with the gear, but if he is following the regs well otherwise, maybe not the end of the world?
I was just happy to see that CAP units do still get call-outs in some communities. We could be talking about "CAP in the news" in a much worse situation than this. I'm not too worried about this one.
Having said this, I too have personally have seen a slightly over-outfitted cadets. I roll my eyes, and remind myself that they are still young and maturity may not be 100% there yet.
Quote from: Garibaldi on May 12, 2014, 04:55:20 PM
The past incidents, such as the Massachusetts Smokey-bear TI cadet, should stand out as examples of what not to do or tolerate. Yes, we can accomplish our mission, but not at the cost of negative public opinion.
/rant
I've seen some of SAR groups change outer clothing outside of mission base. They'll take off the nice uniform shirt and put on the bright orange rip-stop nylon and hip waders or whatever. Maybe they've had more up-to-date public affairs training across their membership.
I think you're right about the public image issue, and it should be addressed through guidance that allows teams in the diverse environments from Georgia to Virginia to Alaska to wear appropriate personal protective equipment. Even within states the environment can differ dramatically. CAP can't afford to equip every member with a standard set of BDU everything like the military would.
We have to have standards that take both appearance and attainability (affordability, availability, size ranges) into account. In a way, that's a much harder challenge than faced by the military. Taking cues from other SAR agencies would probably be a good start.
Quote from: Tim Day on May 12, 2014, 04:47:36 PM
Besides the total unprofessional inappropriateness of your comment considering the three human beings who lost their lives in this balloon mishap, a little self-righteousness reduction might be in order for so-called adults who want to bust the chops of teens that are actually out serving their community.
To be fair...that slipped my mind. No connotation was meant, though given the specific case, I can see the issue. So to restate, I just made an unfortunately dumb symbolic statement, based on the given situation. Truly wasn't thinking about the fact that this was a ballooning incident. My apologies to anyone who was offended by my choice of words, I certainly wouldn't say something like that in respect to the people who died in the incident, or any incident.
Quote from: Tim Day on May 12, 2014, 05:07:34 PM
We have to have standards that take both appearance and attainability (affordability, availability, size ranges) into account. In a way, that's a much harder challenge than faced by the military. Taking cues from other SAR agencies would probably be a good start.
The other thing that has to happen is we have to have member who will adhere to said standards. We pretty much do have good standards, but we also have far too many members - cadet and senior - who "know better" and disregard said standards because they don't present the hard-kewl appearance they want to project. Once that problem can be solved, or at least reduced to the occasion odd-ball, we start modifying uniforms.
:clap:
That was Day 1 as a CDC, when the cadets arrived for an evening ES training at the squadron.
Two of them had the headgear.....by thirty seconds into the session it was off and stowed. Not sighted since!
This photo speaks to me a lot louder than just improper gear selection. In my current air unit, when I got here we had a lot of completely useless volunteer types running around who were actually involved with the air unit. Not something I was used to, although... I did have plenty of experience with volunteers via CAP. What is the FIRST thing I did? Here are some ideas....
#1. If you aren't invited, you don't show up. To many people were just hanging out with nothing to offer.
#2. If you are invited and you chose to show up, you WILL wear the designated flight suit uniform only. Which means you WILL NOT add your own patches, you WILL NOT bring gear that I have not personally approved and put it anywhere near my aircraft or on your body.
#3. You WILL direct any media questions or official contacts to a full time paid member of the unit or other designated volunteer.
#4. If we, as an organization, ever have to make an excuse or apologize for your actions, or decide you are a liability, refer to rule #1.
If you don't have the maturity to wear appropriate gear and not look like an Airsoft team leader, then perhaps its not time for you to respond to a scene with dead bodies. Not for a second would looking this ridiculous ever cross my mind when presented with showing up to a real mission. Is it the end of the world? Of course not. Does it make CAP look silly to other professional organizations? Yes it does. But this is the photo that made it into the media. As someone who is paid to do SAR as a mission full time, I rolled my eyes and shook my head. My first thought wasn't "well at least they got called." or "Good to see cadets out helping." My first thought was "Can someone call their mother to come pick them up please?" These cadets look silly and nobody there told them.
Interesting that the other cadet isn't decked out like a commando though isn't it? So this is something these two decided to do on their own. The argument for cadets working in ES is that they are learning. Well guess what doesn't fly in professional SAR? Any guesses? How about making your own rules? When you look at this in an organizational discipline aspect, these cadets were comfortable enough to bend the standards to the point that allowed them to end up like this. If an adult showed up to a SAR operation as a volunteer dressed like that, any organization worth their weight would thank them and send them on their way. Kids get some leeway because they are kids. So if thats how we are going to treat them, like kids, and give them a pass because they are kids, then they have no business responding to life altering missions, with deceased victims, dressing like kids playing a game.
So what needs to happen? These cadets don't need disciplined, nobody needs written up or 2b'd. What needs to happen is someone from that Group or even Wing needs to get on the horn and insure its handled and that we don't have cadets and/or seniors representing CAP like a bunch of kids out playing in their back yard. Ive worked in CAP and with SAR volunteers who brought amazing skill and training to the table and Ive worked with volunteers who were compete idiots who were volunteering because they couldn't hold a job.
Give cadets a purpose, let them learn and experience, but don't let them make fools out of themselves in the process.
Quote from: SamuelRosinsky on May 11, 2014, 03:48:07 PM
We use ammo pouches in the Army for a lot of things... Holding snacks is my favorite :clap:
+1 same here. 8)
But unlike CAP.... ultimately those magazine pouches are for magazines loaded with real bullets.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 11, 2014, 11:30:27 PMThey have time for affections like shemaghs, but not to get the safety equipment required?
Well to be "tacticool" you need the shemagh and did you notice the Cadets were attempting to grow beards? When they get their allowance they need Oakley sunglasses because to be a legit Ranger/Operator you need cool stuff, like me 8)
Is this horse dead yet?
Quote from: Flying Pig on May 12, 2014, 06:49:10 PM
So what needs to happen? These cadets don't need disciplined, nobody needs written up or 2b'd. What needs to happen is someone from that Group or even Wing needs to get on the horn and insure its handled and that we don't have cadets and/or seniors representing CAP like a bunch of kids out playing in their back yard. Ive worked in CAP and with SAR volunteers who brought amazing skill and training to the table and Ive worked with volunteers who were compete idiots who were volunteering because they couldn't hold a job.
Give cadets a purpose, let them learn and experience, but don't let them make fools out of themselves in the process.
I agree.
That is actually being done, out of view of CAPTALK and other public fora, and not just for these cadets but for everyone involved. The non-CAP organizations are doing the same thing, as I'm sure you would be aware. I get to see both processes at work, to some extent, due to connections with the non-CAP volunteer SAR organizations - so I second your observation that the same problems exist outside of CAP.
In addition to the lessons learned and follow-on public affairs awareness training, I think we need to have an informed and rational discussion regarding what types of PPE should be worn even if not in the current CAPM 39-1. These additional items of PPE range from less to more controversial.
In my view, less controversial items would be gaiters. Wearing them is normal practice among SAR groups here in Virginia.
More controversial might be hiking boots other than black combat boots. These tend to be much less readily available than civilian hiking boots, which means our members pay more and are less likely to get a good fit.
Non-starters would likely include BDU boonie hats, per the stated Air Force decision.
I agree that PPE lists should not be an excuse for dressing however we want. PPE lists need to take into account regional differences and should be based on what is required / normal for local SAR groups if possible.
Quote from: Flying Pig on May 12, 2014, 07:00:03 PM
But unlike CAP.... ultimately those magazine pouches are for magazines loaded with real bullets.
When was the last time you had gloves in your glove-box in the car?
I don't have a glove box. Its a gun case :) As far as my patrol car....... It was stuffed with latex gloves :)
Quote from: TexasCadet on May 11, 2014, 03:10:54 PM
There is at least one picture of a cadet with a tactical vest and magazines pouches. Magazine pouches?! Didn't we just have two threads discussing the issue of ground teams carrying weapons? What useful purpose do magazine pouches serve besides holding magazines? This does not help our public image.
In fact, the single M-16 magazine pouch is exactly the right size for an EFJ5100 radio. The flash-bang pouch is exactly the right size for the (now prohibited) Wouxun radio.
DrT
Quote from: Flying Pig on May 12, 2014, 07:19:47 PM
I don't have a glove box. Its a gun case :) As far as my patrol car....... It was stuffed with latex gloves :)
True that, now that is funny cool 8)
Quote from: Tim Day on May 12, 2014, 07:15:32 PM
More controversial might be hiking boots other than black combat boots. These tend to be much less readily available than civilian hiking boots, which means our members pay more and are less likely to get a good fit.
I agree with pretty much everything, other then your obsession with gaiters, which might
be based on the "Day Gaiter Consortium" I saw on Google, but I would consider them
"equipment" and say that if needed they could certainly be worn >WHEN< needed,
meaning before you wander into the woods, not in the car on the way, at the Denny's,
nor at meetings, etc.
Now as to black boots being "less available" then hiking boots, that's just not true, unless there aren't Walmarts in Virginia. I was there this weekend looking at very nice black side-zip, combat-height, tactical boots.
Maybe Corcoran jump boots aren't readily available, but what members should be wearing certainly are.
Quote from: MSG Mac on May 12, 2014, 07:12:05 PM
Is this horse dead yet?
What and pass up the opportunity of beating up a pair of kids for trying to be cool? No way! We are good for 3-4 more pages at least.
Quote from: lordmonar on May 12, 2014, 08:00:09 PM
Quote from: MSG Mac on May 12, 2014, 07:12:05 PM
Is this horse dead yet?
What and pass up the opportunity of beating up a pair of kids for trying to be cool? No way! We are good for 3-4 more pages at least.
Exactly and have we even started with the Senior Member / GTL / chaperone yet? :clap:
"Name 5 things wrong with this picture"
*bzzt*
1. Hats
2. No safety vests
3. No mixed senior chaperones.
4. No GTL in sight
5. Ummm....
Quote from: Private Investigator on May 12, 2014, 08:12:19 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on May 12, 2014, 08:00:09 PM
Quote from: MSG Mac on May 12, 2014, 07:12:05 PM
Is this horse dead yet?
What and pass up the opportunity of beating up a pair of kids for trying to be cool? No way! We are good for 3-4 more pages at least.
Exactly and have we even started with the Senior Member / GTL / chaperone yet? :clap:
Why stop there.
This sort of thing happens at all levels of the organization.
National Commanders who remained in blues a little too long.
Regional commanders withe subdued rank on their flight suits.
Wing Commanders violating these rules.
Wings simply doing what ever they want (a la CAWG's ES uniforms and all that ranger bling in PAWG).
I know that we try to make ES fun on the GT side of things....and if rangering up gets them out into the field....well I don't mind to much.
Boonies.....well you know....we have only been fighting that one for since 1941. This ain't the first time CAP members have gone to the field in boonies and it ain't going to be last.
And it will continue to happen.....until we start firing some leaders.
/rant
Quote from: Garibaldi on May 12, 2014, 08:29:11 PM
"Name 5 things wrong with this picture"
*bzzt*
1. Hats
2. No safety vests
3. No mixed senior chaperones.
4. No GTL in sight
5. Ummm....
3. If they are not going to be over night they don't have to be mixed.
4. No GTL in "Frame"...He might just be off camera....in one photo I think you can see him way in the background with the van....Also....it is possible that one of those older cadets might just be the GTL......It's been know to happen.
Quote from: lordmonar on May 12, 2014, 08:37:26 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on May 12, 2014, 08:29:11 PM
"Name 5 things wrong with this picture"
*bzzt*
1. Hats
2. No safety vests
3. No mixed senior chaperones.
4. No GTL in sight
5. Ummm....
3. If they are not going to be over night they don't have to be mixed.
4. No GTL in "Frame"...He might just be off camera....in one photo I think you can see him way in the background with the van....Also....it is possible that one of those older cadets might just be the GTL......It's been know to happen.
I was joking around, based on Eclipse's post about GTL and chaperone. Killing the dead horse softly...
Quote from: Garibaldi on May 12, 2014, 08:40:49 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on May 12, 2014, 08:37:26 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on May 12, 2014, 08:29:11 PM
"Name 5 things wrong with this picture"
*bzzt*
1. Hats
2. No safety vests
3. No mixed senior chaperones.
4. No GTL in sight
5. Ummm....
3. If they are not going to be over night they don't have to be mixed.
4. No GTL in "Frame"...He might just be off camera....in one photo I think you can see him way in the background with the van....Also....it is possible that one of those older cadets might just be the GTL......It's been know to happen.
I was joking around, based on Eclipse's post about GTL and chaperone. Killing the dead horse softly...
There you go....using irony and stuff......you got to the [ironic][/ironic] tags or I'll be lost. :)
Quote from: lordmonar on May 12, 2014, 08:44:15 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on May 12, 2014, 08:40:49 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on May 12, 2014, 08:37:26 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on May 12, 2014, 08:29:11 PM
"Name 5 things wrong with this picture"
*bzzt*
1. Hats
2. No safety vests
3. No mixed senior chaperones.
4. No GTL in sight
5. Ummm....
3. If they are not going to be over night they don't have to be mixed.
4. No GTL in "Frame"...He might just be off camera....in one photo I think you can see him way in the background with the van....Also....it is possible that one of those older cadets might just be the GTL......It's been know to happen.
I was joking around, based on Eclipse's post about GTL and chaperone. Killing the dead horse softly...
There you go....using irony and stuff......you got to the [ironic][/ironic] tags or I'll be lost. :)
We'll just send that hard-kore tak-ti-kewl team after you.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 12, 2014, 07:58:32 PM
I agree with pretty much everything, other then your obsession with gaiters, which might
be based on the "Day Gaiter Consortium" I saw on Google, but I would consider them
"equipment" and say that if needed they could certainly be worn >WHEN< needed,
meaning before you wander into the woods, not in the car on the way, at the Denny's,
nor at meetings, etc.
I actually googled Day Gaiter Consortium and was disappointed to come up empty, unlike your normal search redirects. ;)
Ok, I'll admit I
may have over-used
gaiters as an example of PPE.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 12, 2014, 07:58:32 PM
Now as to black boots being "less available" then hiking boots, that's just not true, unless there aren't Walmarts in Virginia. I was there this weekend looking at very nice black side-zip, combat-height, tactical boots.
We've got Walmarts and we've worn Walmart black boots. They're not suitable for SAR in the terrain in which we work, but I certainly recommend them to my cadets for everything but emergency services use.
I seriously considered gin-ing a quick web page but billable issues took my time.
Quote from: JeffDG on May 12, 2014, 07:18:21 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on May 12, 2014, 07:00:03 PM
But unlike CAP.... ultimately those magazine pouches are for magazines loaded with real bullets.
When was the last time you had gloves in your glove-box in the car?
Right now. Which ones do you want? The Nomex flight gloves or the exam gloves?
Quote from: PHall on May 13, 2014, 12:28:55 AM
Quote from: JeffDG on May 12, 2014, 07:18:21 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on May 12, 2014, 07:00:03 PM
But unlike CAP.... ultimately those magazine pouches are for magazines loaded with real bullets.
When was the last time you had gloves in your glove-box in the car?
Right now. Which ones do you want? The Nomex flight gloves or the exam gloves?
Man, tough crowd!
Heck, even when I lived up in the GWN, I didn't keep gloves in the glove box...generally kept them on my hands!
I have several pairs of gloves in my car. There's a pair to keep my hands warm while I'm driving, a pair of work gloves for work stuff, and some blue nitriles for ooky stuff.
Quote from: SarDragon on May 13, 2014, 02:00:24 AM
I have several pairs of gloves in my car. There's a pair to keep my hands warm while I'm driving, a pair of work gloves for work stuff, and some blue nitriles for ooky stuff.
But are they in the glove box?
Now, I'm on board with there being several uniform violations here, but lets not go overboard in putting thoughts into the head of the general public. No one in the general public is going to know what uniform items they are wearing are authorized or not. A fair number of CAP members probably wouldn't know either if you quized them on it.
Yes, the public may have thought they looked silly, and I also think that they do, but they're more likely to assume that they were in an authorized uniform.
It would be nice if we had some standard field gear to go with the BDU. Plenty of military and non-military options. Probably unrealistic as we can't even get the polo shirt crowd to wear the same gray pants.
" Photography, as a powerful medium of expression and communications, offers an infinite variety of perception, interpretation and execution."
Ansel Adams
I personally carry a shemagh with me, at least in my 24-hour kit. It's a very useful piece of kit. Whether you're using it as a scarf for warmth, or a towel, or a sling, it has uses beyond just looking tacticool. If people have heartaches over the color...fine....these are out there:
(http://www.leesarmystore.co.uk/store/shopimages/products/normal/rsz_1Shemagh_Orangehgcfhnfhfhjghjghjghjkgkgkhlikjl;jl.jpg)
There's also another thread here regarding the upcoming orange MOLLE vests. Somehow, I don't think people will have any issue if the tactical gear was orange and ANSI 2 rated.
Quote from: MSG Mac on May 12, 2014, 07:12:05 PM
Is this horse dead yet?
Not until the SAR team confirms it.
Quote from: Panache on May 13, 2014, 04:31:31 AM
Quote from: MSG Mac on May 12, 2014, 07:12:05 PM
Is this horse dead yet?
Not until the SAR team confirms it.
We are not supposed to do that.....call mission base ask for the sheriff and the coroner, seal of the area and wait for the cavalry to arrive.
:)
Quote from: lordmonar on May 13, 2014, 04:58:31 AM
Quote from: Panache on May 13, 2014, 04:31:31 AM
Quote from: MSG Mac on May 12, 2014, 07:12:05 PM
Is this horse dead yet?
Not until the SAR team confirms it.
We are not supposed to do that.....call mission base ask for the sheriff and the coroner, seal of the area and wait for the cavalry to arrive.
:)
(waiting) (waiting some more)
"Hey, where's the cavalry?"
"Dead horse. Remember?"
Quote from: Dr.T on May 12, 2014, 07:24:36 PM
Quote from: TexasCadet on May 11, 2014, 03:10:54 PM
There is at least one picture of a cadet with a tactical vest and magazines pouches. Magazine pouches?! Didn't we just have two threads discussing the issue of ground teams carrying weapons? What useful purpose do magazine pouches serve besides holding magazines? This does not help our public image.
In fact, the single M-16 magazine pouch is exactly the right size for an EFJ5100 radio. The flash-bang pouch is exactly the right size for the (now prohibited) Wouxun radio.
DrT
It is also the perfect size for:
Gloves
Vest
Water Bottles
Compass
Space Blanket
Random Items
I use my Magazine Pouches for water bottles, I hate canteens, and only use it as a backup, or for MRE's.
Quote from: Flying Pig on May 12, 2014, 06:49:10 PM
This photo speaks to me a lot louder than just improper gear selection. In my current air unit, when I got here we had a lot of completely useless volunteer types running around who were actually involved with the air unit. Not something I was used to, although... I did have plenty of experience with volunteers via CAP. What is the FIRST thing I did? Here are some ideas....
#1. If you aren't invited, you don't show up. To many people were just hanging out with nothing to offer.
#2. If you are invited and you chose to show up, you WILL wear the designated flight suit uniform only. Which means you WILL NOT add your own patches, you WILL NOT bring gear that I have not personally approved and put it anywhere near my aircraft or on your body.
#3. You WILL direct any media questions or official contacts to a full time paid member of the unit or other designated volunteer.
#4. If we, as an organization, ever have to make an excuse or apologize for your actions, or decide you are a liability, refer to rule #1.
If you don't have the maturity to wear appropriate gear and not look like an Airsoft team leader, then perhaps its not time for you to respond to a scene with dead bodies. Not for a second would looking this ridiculous ever cross my mind when presented with showing up to a real mission. Is it the end of the world? Of course not. Does it make CAP look silly to other professional organizations? Yes it does. But this is the photo that made it into the media. As someone who is paid to do SAR as a mission full time, I rolled my eyes and shook my head. My first thought wasn't "well at least they got called." or "Good to see cadets out helping." My first thought was "Can someone call their mother to come pick them up please?" These cadets look silly and nobody there told them.
Interesting that the other cadet isn't decked out like a commando though isn't it? So this is something these two decided to do on their own. The argument for cadets working in ES is that they are learning. Well guess what doesn't fly in professional SAR? Any guesses? How about making your own rules? When you look at this in an organizational discipline aspect, these cadets were comfortable enough to bend the standards to the point that allowed them to end up like this. If an adult showed up to a SAR operation as a volunteer dressed like that, any organization worth their weight would thank them and send them on their way. Kids get some leeway because they are kids. So if thats how we are going to treat them, like kids, and give them a pass because they are kids, then they have no business responding to life altering missions, with deceased victims, dressing like kids playing a game.
So what needs to happen? These cadets don't need disciplined, nobody needs written up or 2b'd. What needs to happen is someone from that Group or even Wing needs to get on the horn and insure its handled and that we don't have cadets and/or seniors representing CAP like a bunch of kids out playing in their back yard. Ive worked in CAP and with SAR volunteers who brought amazing skill and training to the table and Ive worked with volunteers who were compete idiots who were volunteering because they couldn't hold a job.
Give cadets a purpose, let them learn and experience, but don't let them make fools out of themselves in the process.
You have good points, very good indeed, but....
What is Considered "Professional SAR"? Who makes the Rules on what to wear? There are different Levels of SAR? What I am getting to is, there is alot of OPINIONS on what a SAR member should wear professional or not. You may work as a Professional SAR team, and your team may wear what they wear. Ive seen Numerous SAR teams and they all were different things. Ive seen some wear BDUs, some wear Tac Pants and a Shirt, ive seen some wear SWAT gear, etc. I dont give to Donkeys what a SAR team wears, heck i dont care if they look like SEAL TEAM SIX, as long as they finish the mission and find said target.
Yes, the "CADETS" might have been a lil Tac Ti Kewl, but then again some people say that I am the same way.It is all based on perception. I bet you if they were all "Senior" members dressed like that, no one would care. There is many uniform violations in CAP, I see them everyday, I am one of them, (I dont wear any "Badges" on my BDU's). It just grinds my gears when people say that we are not a "REAL" Search and Rescue team, when we have numerous times proven ourselves and found targets that local LEO and Local "Teams" couldnt find. We train just like a SAR team does, maybe not a frequent, but we still train.
For a very looooong time I used mag pouches and butt pack for my first aid and some other 24-hour pack items. Now I just have consolidated everything on an ALICE med pack. I would not begrudge anyone using those items. They are, after all, much, much, much cheaper than similar civilian items. A shelagh? It is just a bigger bandana! It can also be used for holding hot items, if you decide to boil water in the field for your meal or coffee and have to hold a hot pan or canteen cup. I begrudge the use of the color, I carry a red bandana for its possible use as a marker! But a tiny, teeny begrudge. Not even a 1%...
Quote from: Devil Doc on May 13, 2014, 12:37:45 PMThere is many uniform violations in CAP, I see them everyday, I am one of them, (I dont wear any "Badges" on my BDU's).
There is no requirement to wear any badges on the field uniforms, nor which ones to wear if you qualify for more then one.
For the record, i have my CAP mobile radio in the glove box (with the actual "box" removed) and gloves under the back seat of the truck.
We don't need no stinkin' badges! ....
... can't see 'em anyway, because of all the pouches attached.
Badges not worn - not required, no problem.
Mag puches used to carry stuff - no problem.
Boonie hats - Problem. This has been addressed by the AF and the answer is no. Period. End of discussion.
Not combat boots - little issue, but not really worth mentioning.
Shemagh worn as in picture - problem.
Shemagh carried in pack/pocket - no problem.
Seniors not being called out for the same things - YES. If you search many past threads, senior are routinely excoriated here for similar violations. And many of us have addressed the issue in person as well.
Whether CAP is a 'real' SAR Team or not is a local or wing issue. Some areas have great responses and records while others are never called out.
As for wearing civilian outerwear with the bdu, the AF has come out and said no, only AF style outerwear is to be worn with AF style uniforms. Do we follow this to the letter? Honestly, no. Another argument for a CAP SAR uniform, not based on the bdu.
corrected FFS issues
Quote from: EMT-83 on May 13, 2014, 02:53:54 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on May 13, 2014, 02:00:24 AM
I have several pairs of gloves in my car. There's a pair to keep my hands warm while I'm driving, a pair of work gloves for work stuff, and some blue nitriles for ooky stuff.
But are they in the glove box?
No, I keep them in my nightstand 8)
Quote from: Panzerbjorn on May 13, 2014, 04:17:06 AM
I personally carry a shemagh with me, at least in my 24-hour kit. It's a very useful piece of kit. Whether you're using it as a scarf for warmth, or a towel, or a sling, it has uses beyond just looking tacticool. If people have heartaches over the color...fine....these are out there:
(http://www.leesarmystore.co.uk/store/shopimages/products/normal/rsz_1Shemagh_Orangehgcfhnfhfhjghjghjghjkgkgkhlikjl;jl.jpg)
I do too. Actually I like your color. I got a white one so I look like a broke goatherder and my wife has the red one and with designer sunglasses is going for the Princess persona. كوفية 8)
Quote from: arajca on May 13, 2014, 04:16:26 PM
Shelagh worn as in picture - problem.
Shelagh carried in pack/pocket - no problem.
[Crocodile Dundee voice]
"I dunno how you put a Shelagh in your back pocket, mate."
[/Crocodile Dundee voice]
I think you meant shemagh (aka "middle eastern cravat")...
a Shelagh is something different. :)
http://www.babynames.com/name/SHELAGH (http://www.babynames.com/name/SHELAGH)
Quote from: Devil Doc on May 13, 2014, 12:37:45 PM
It just grinds my gears when people say that we are not a "REAL" Search and Rescue team, when we have numerous times proven ourselves and found targets that local LEO and Local "Teams" couldnt find. We train just like a SAR team does, maybe not a frequent, but we still train.
Finding things most often as to do with assignments, not abilities. As far as CAP training like a SAR team? OK... Ill just say your experiences have obviously been much different than mine.
Quote from: Flying Pig on May 13, 2014, 05:22:42 PM
Quote from: Devil Doc on May 13, 2014, 12:37:45 PM
It just grinds my gears when people say that we are not a "REAL" Search and Rescue team, when we have numerous times proven ourselves and found targets that local LEO and Local "Teams" couldnt find. We train just like a SAR team does, maybe not a frequent, but we still train.
Finding things most often as to do with assignments, not abilities. As far as CAP training like a SAR team? OK... Ill just say your experiences have obviously been much different than mine.
Fair Enough, that still does negate the fact that CAP has been Successfull at SAR. We may not do Static lines or do High Angle Rescues, but we get the job done. My Units SAR team has a Retired Lt from the Rescue Squad (Leader), ME (Combat Medic) even though I cant use it, but it is still experience with some extra schooling. . A retired Air Force Pilot, who knows wilderness survival, Numerous Cadets who have attened NESA and Hawk Mountain and NASAR qualfied. We have units around us that have a few Ranger 1st Class, Ranger Medics (Im working on Mine) and Advanced/Expert Rangers. Sometime our Group Commander joins us, he has EMT/FF/Rescue Squad experience. So yes, we may not have the "Training" a know SAR has, but our experience is not lacking.
Quote from: Devil Doc on May 13, 2014, 05:34:33 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on May 13, 2014, 05:22:42 PM
Quote from: Devil Doc on May 13, 2014, 12:37:45 PM
It just grinds my gears when people say that we are not a "REAL" Search and Rescue team, when we have numerous times proven ourselves and found targets that local LEO and Local "Teams" couldnt find. We train just like a SAR team does, maybe not a frequent, but we still train.
Finding things most often as to do with assignments, not abilities. As far as CAP training like a SAR team? OK... Ill just say your experiences have obviously been much different than mine.
Fair Enough, that still does negate the fact that CAP has been Successfull at SAR. We may not do Static lines or do High Angle Rescues, but we get the job done. My Units SAR team has a Retired Lt from the Rescue Squad (Leader), ME (Combat Medic) even though I cant use it, but it is still experience with some extra schooling. . A retired Air Force Pilot, who knows wilderness survival, Numerous Cadets who have attened NESA and Hawk Mountain and NASAR qualfied. We have units around us that have a few Ranger 1st Class, Ranger Medics (Im working on Mine) and Advanced/Expert Rangers. Sometime our Group Commander joins us, he has EMT/FF/Rescue Squad experience. So yes, we may not have the "Training" a know SAR has, but our experience is not lacking.
Here's the thing. We're both in CAP. I know what "rangers" are. It still doesn't tell me squat about what they can or can't do. No such beast in CAP, and to outsiders....they probably think USA Rangers, and get 40 pounds overweight for BDUs rangers. (*I know not all rangers are overweight, but I've seen quite a few, as is typical of CAP members).
Quote from: NIN on May 13, 2014, 04:58:57 PM
Quote from: arajca on May 13, 2014, 04:16:26 PM
Shelagh worn as in picture - problem.
Shelagh carried in pack/pocket - no problem.
[Crocodile Dundee voice]
"I dunno how you put a Shelagh in your back pocket, mate."
[/Crocodile Dundee voice]
I think you meant shemagh (aka "middle eastern cravat")...
a Shelagh is something different. :)
If you were herd-kruw like me....you'd know how to get a shelagh in your back pocket.....just saying. :)
Quote from: Flying Pig on May 13, 2014, 05:22:42 PM
Quote from: Devil Doc on May 13, 2014, 12:37:45 PM
It just grinds my gears when people say that we are not a "REAL" Search and Rescue team, when we have numerous times proven ourselves and found targets that local LEO and Local "Teams" couldnt find. We train just like a SAR team does, maybe not a frequent, but we still train.
Finding things most often as to do with assignments, not abilities. As far as CAP training like a SAR team? OK... Ill just say your experiences have obviously been much different than mine.
CAP trains like an organization that wants to be a SAR team. Or a disaster relief team. Or an emergency management organization. Or a youth program. Or an education program. Or....
Having lots of experience on a team is great. Having lots of practical experience is much more valuable.