Senior Member D&C

[JayT]

What do you guys think of having senior members take a manditory basic Drill and Ceremonies class?  The ...

JThelman - See above. My answer is no, it would be a bad idea. Sorry if that greatly frustrates people but I don't think it is something that needs to be mandatory. In particular I think that making the adults dress up and play soldier is a really bad idea. The question was asked.

I also think it is unfair that I should be told to leave the organization just cuz I have a differing opinion. Awfully narrowminded of the military wannabe types I should say. I say that if you really want to do all the D&C stuff you ought to go and join the Real Military - if you think I should leave because I don't want to do it.

John Kachenmeister - you didn't get what I was trying to convey. I have no problem doing the first four things on my list. The fourth is going to rub a few potential recruits the wrong way. It's the fifth one (and the whole point of this thread) that would be the deal buster in my opinion. Tell people that they have to do all this stuff, put in lots of volunteer hours abiding by CAP regulations, and oh, by the way, we want you to always dress up in a fancy uniform each week and stand in some formation and be inspected by someone else who also isn't in the Real Military. We have a hard enough time attracting the people who are willing to do all that it takes to do the first four items. We don't need to pile on number five.

My name is Themann.

I am about as anti playing soldier as it gets. That's the main reason I don't wear the military style uniform.

I also can't remember I did anything more then stand in formation and salute.

However, if an SM doesn't know much of the stuff that I learned as a cadet, or at least knows enough to shut up and leave me alone, I'm tempted to ignore him.

[Nomex Maximus]

My name is Themann.

I am about as anti playing soldier as it gets. That's the main reason I don't wear the military style uniform.

I also can't remember I did anything more then stand in formation and salute.

However, if an SM doesn't know much of the stuff that I learned as a cadet, or at least knows enough to shut up and leave me alone, I'm tempted to ignore him.

Jay The Mann -

Sorry I got confused.

The question before us here is whether we should have mandatory drill and ceremony for senior members. As if they need it in the first place. That has sort of been taken for granted here, I have seen no research that seniors are less able to handle drill and ceremony than anyone else. Sort of an age discrimintation thing here, I think. And I believe that age discrimination is NOT one of the CAP core values...

But nonetheless. Let's consider it's impact on the new recruit. What motivates the new recruit. Is it not a sense of professionalism, a sense of patriotism, a sense of volunteerism? Then why all the need for playing soldier? Is the military the sole owner of professionalism? I bet I could take any number of professions and show that their members are ready to serve at a moments notice. Take podiatry for example. What makes a podiatrist get up and go to work in the morning. The prospect of seeing dirty feet all day? The smell? The queazy itchy goosey patients with their fungus infected feet? But nonetheless they go and do it, each and every day. Performing their examinations and applying their ointments. Why? Because they are professionals. You could learn a thing or two from seeing how podiatrists serve their fellow man. Perhaps, maybe, someday YOU might bring the level of professionalism of the podiatrist into CAP. I think it might just be a great step forward, no pun intended. Maybe you should salute them.

Mandatory drill and ceremony for seniors? No, I still don't think so. Mandatory foot inspections, deoderants and proper footwear, well that's another thread.

--Nomex.

[RogueLeader]

But you haven't even talked about one part of what makes CAP, well, CAP.  That is our military affiliation just as important is our background.  We have the background as military as well as corporate.  A Podiatrist is only corporate- here is no military, unless a AD MD.  Podiatry does not have the mil background, so he/she isn't expected to behave in a military manner on duty.  WE all know how the mil acts, otherwise it wouldn't be an issue. So, the real question is, as far as I'm concerned is this: Where does CAP fall in the balance between them?  Some say more mil, some say less.  I'm not saying that we should be as proficient as a mil Drill Team, but I also think that we should be able to maneuver in the appropriate manner at the right times.

Could some the former mil members confirm this idea for me?  Here it is:  If you- a CAP Member- go to make a report to a Military Officer- LTC,Col or any GEN-, or Senior NCO- E-7 to E-9- and the member is wearing Service Dress.  However, this member is not wearing it correctly, fails to salute an officer, and does not act the part; are you the Mil Officer/SNCO going to give this member any real consideration?

Or, How about same member goes to any civilian agency and does the same thing- obviously no saluting-? Do you think that represents CAP in a Good way?
I really don't think so.

This isn't about "playing soldier." This is about portraying the image that CAP represents.  If you don't like it, thats tough.  You can not expect a paramilitary organization to not act that way and be taken credibly.  I'm sorry to break this to you, but the hippie age is over, long time ago; it is time to be relevant.  Part of being relevant is not making your self look bad.  D&C, C&C go a long way to helping you get there.

CAP isn't like a Starburst's Candy, where you can pick the pieces you like, and discard the ones you don't.  We're like a Snickers, many different things, all wrapped up together.  Go CAP.  Lets roll.

[Major Carrales]

"Playing soldier?"  I have always had a strange problem with that phrase.

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=2885.0

[eaglefly]

The Cadet who started this thread had a valid question., and No, is a valid answer.    We can make all kinds of 'should be' arguments, but the fact of  is that most Senior members are NOT going to spend time learning things that they see no practical value in. 

Every one has a duty to support ALL of our missons.   Every one is NOT required to participate in all of them.       We each bring what we are willing to give.  It is the duty of the Leadership to ensure that what we bring is not wasted.

We all owe each other the courtesy of respect.   The idea that we should run off members because they do not meet X's oppinion of what a CAP member should be is just wrong.

Now we DO need to teach some basic Courtesy.  Lets start with the basics, You don't interupt a conversation,
You give the instructor at the front of the class your undivided attention and,
You  stop and think about the situation from the other persons point of view BEFORE you start beating him up?   

I'm talking Seniors and Cadets.

[Nomex Maximus]

The Cadet who started this thread had a valid question., and No, is a valid answer. 
. . .
I'm talking Seniors and Cadets.

Yep, I agree.

[DrJbdm]

Nomex, I'm about as pro military as you can get. CAP did after all start off shortly after it's in inception as a COMBAT unit. The last I checked we flew armed aircraft into battle against a foreign nations military vessels. that means we have a history as a combat military unit, even if it did happen 60 some years ago. The mission may have changed with the times, but CAP is, in it's heart still a military organization, we may be civilians but we do things in a military manner because it is our heritage, and without that heritage we wouldn't be who we are or even who we should or could be.

  It's my opinion and maybe mine alone that we should be much closer to the Air Force or Air National guard with our standards. We should hold ourselves higher and demand more from our members, perhaps we lose a few along the way but we would gain more from it ultimately. no one really respects an organization that doesn't maintain high standards for participation and for leadership. As the Air Force Aux, whether full time or part time and that distinction is really only valid on missions...we should be holding ourselves to real world Air Force standards as close as possible. If you didn't join CAP to "play soldier" as you put it, perhaps CAP isn't for you. Not everyone wants to be in a military style organization, it's not for everyone and thats ok.

  As Officers in the U.S. Civil Air Patrol - USAF Aux  we should know enough C&C and perhaps a little D&C so as to not embarrass ourselves in front of military personnel. If you truly want to be a part of CAP and not have to learn or practice those sort of things then perhaps staying a SM without grade is for you, just wear the golf shirt. No has said you must become an Officer. The last thing we want the military to view us as is a joke. And doing our own things because we want to be different will do just that. We have to maintain our image, it's all that we have. Lets look at our heritage and then lets look at where want to be further into our future, and then let's hope that they go well together.

  These are my opinions alone, I do not intend to insult anyone. agree or disagree with them, that's up to you.

[Dragoon]

The underlying issue is "if we are a para-military organization, why do we do such a poor job at it?"

I think that's worth exploring.

Can you have an "all military CAP,"  where everyone wears military gear and follows customs and courtesies. - yup. 


Pros

With waivers for weeble shaped individuals, we can mimic USAF culture.

We'd probably increase attention to detail and reg-following (two things the military culture is known for)

We might get a little more respect from Joe Airman on the streetcorner, as we'd look and act more like him.

It would better support the cadet training mission, as every senior would be a better role model for a military cadet program.

Cons

There's no doubt that we'd lose some members.  Especially pilots.  Which, like it or not, are pretty important to what we do. 

It would take training time away from other things to teach this stuff.  We've only got so many hours in the week to train CAP stuff - is D&C and shoe-shining a good use of a senior member's time contribution.



Can you have an "all civilian CAP" where all seniors wears corporate suits, we abolish customs and courtesies, and probably stop using military grade (since it serves little purpose)?  - yup.

Pros

Eliminates any whiff of "wannabee."  We're not USAF officers - we're volunteer USAF civilians. 

In a different way, this might help CAP-military relations - the military has no problem dealing with civilian agencies, but sometimes gets confused with para-military groups.

Eliminates huge amounts of wheel spinning over 39-1.  Just put on a golf shirt and do your job.

Focuses training on mission accomplishment.  Substance over form.

Might be more amenable to real servicemen.  From what I've seen, lots of them (especially the senior officers) seem more comfortable in CAP golf shirts as it is, having had enough saluting in their previous life.

Cons

Doesn't necessarily fit well with the cadet training mission (which IS military).

Will be a turn off for members who are primarily attracted to "being an officer" over "accomplishing CAP's missions"  (wait, this might be a pro, rather than a con)

Doubtful anyone who has eagles is ready to turn them in for the good of the team.


How about a hybrid.  Just a different hybrid from today's "be whatever you want" CAP? 

Options include

1.  Make all senior leaders over the cadet program abide by military standards.  If you wear a golf shirt and have a beard, the biggest role you can have in the cadet program is as a "civilian cadet instructor."  Kind of like the British cadet model.

or

2.  Require more out of CAP officers in general, and restrict key leadership positions (squadron commanders, most group and wing staff) to CAP "officers."  Golf shirts can help out, but they can't lead.

3.  Require all field grade CAP members to be "military" - shave the beard, learn to salute and act like a military officer.  More civilian members are limited to Captain and below.


Or we could just keep up the status quo.  Play officer if you want.  Don't if you don't want to.  That sounds kind of dismissive, but it really is where we're at today.

[flyguy06]

I joined CAP for the military aspect of it. No, I dont get my jollies playing "officer" I am a real military officer. I do like the military structure, order and comraderie. Also, I have always wanted to be a USAF pilot but due to my vision I wasnt able to. So, for me, CAP is the closets I will be to being a Air Force pilot be it real or "artificial", it work for me. So, yes, I admit, I like the miliytary aspcet of CAP. If they did away with the military part, I would leave this organization.  Back when I joined in 1988, CAP was very pro military. Nowadays its pro Homeland security. A big change.  I am not a mission pilot although I am getting interested in it, but my primary reason is to motivate the youths in my community to pursue careers in military aviation.

[Nomex Maximus]

How about we keep it like it is? The original question was about whether seniors should have another required class about D&C. Presently we don't have such a required class. And things are working out OK.

Now, if you want to talk about improving CAP, well that's a whole nother subject.

For what it's worth, I think CAP should have requirements of seniors such that we would be viewed by the Real Military as Real Volunteers. Why don't Real Military see us as equals? Because we don't march right or salute right? No, I believe (and those who are or have been Real Military can correct me and no doubt you will) the reason that Real Military do not view us with the same level of trust and confidence that they have for each other is that they don't think that we can operate at "their level" of commitment. But I believe we can and should be allowed to help carry our military's burden as volunteers and I think the Real Military should learn to be able to let us help. They need to show us what we need to do to operate at "their level" of commitment.

The  question then would be, what would convince the officers of the Real Military that we can and should be trusted with all manner of military service that would be appropriate for non-paid civilian volunteers? What exactly would we need to do to earn their resect as fellow officers (and please, let's not hear about boot camp, and feats of physical strength and courage). For example, what do we need to do to convince the Real Military that we can be trusted to operate their radios for them? To stand watch over something important? A lot of civilian volunteers are going to be overweight, or old, or have physical limitations that would prevent them from serving in the regular military. But they are nonetheless capable of doing lots of useful things - much more than CAP presently is allowed to do.

I am hoping that the answer to these questions is not that the military would trust us to do more if we just did a better job wearing our uniforms, marching and saluting.

[Major Carrales]

How about we keep it like it is? The original question was about whether seniors should have another required class about D&C. Presently we don't have such a required class. And things are working out OK.

I agree, keep it like it is.  Let those that want to drive D&C participate...let those that do not simply stand respectfully during promotions and the like.

There, everyone wins.

[RogueLeader]

I am hoping that the answer to these questions is not that the military would trust us to do more if we just did a better job wearing our uniforms, marching and saluting.

From what I have seen, it has been a combination of that^^ and the results of some members actions- not always the CAP/CC.

Unfortunately, Many RM do not see or hear of CAP all that often.  When  they do see us, how are we perceived by them? Are uniforms correct and looking good?  Many base what they think you can do by how well you present yourself.   Say you, a Captain, come across a RM Major, and fail to salute.  He's probably not going to think very highly because you wear the Grade but can't follow through with what that means. etc. Not to go back into that argument again.

Then we have the times that there are members that screw it up for us.  Say, Capt. Smith and Maj Doe are giving a briefing about a new operational mode that their wing is going to, but they take too long for the time given, in a nonmilitary fashion, etc- The officer you just gave the briefing to would likely say: thank you, don't call us, we'll call you.  Then might just obstruct you for years when you try again- even after you get yourself straightened out.

I do not think it is all about the uniforms, but it is there- just like screwing the pooch messing up.

[ZigZag911]

I think what many are missing here is that no one is proposing that all eniors need to be trained to perform on the region drill team!

All we're looking for is a basic standard that is known by all.

[Hawk200]

I am hoping that the answer to these questions is not that the military would trust us to do more if we just did a better job wearing our uniforms, marching and saluting.

I've addressed the marching, so I'll leave it alone. On the issue of wearing uniforms, there's plenty there.

Appearance is important, and there is really no argument against it. If you go apply for an office job wearing jeans and a T-shirt, you probably won't get it. The military focuses a great deal on appearance, and without presenting an appearance that's equally detail oriented, you won't get their attention.

You certainly can't tell them that they have to accept our help, that they have to ignore our appearance, especially considering that we wear their uniforms. Wear their uniforms to the same standards they do, and they'll talk to you. Telling them that they have no place to judge you is the surest way to be ignored.

That being said, just getting people to wear uniforms properly is only the beginning. A sharp uniform will get your foot in the door. It won't necessarily get you through it. There are other things we still need to work on.

[Nomex Maximus]

. . . The military focuses a great deal on appearance, and without presenting an appearance that's equally detail oriented, you won't get their attention. . .

What a shame our military hasn't evolved past that.  There was a time when our military felt that being Black looked bad too. At least we have evolved past that.

I seem to remember a time when our Army in West Germany would have its soldiers use nail polish on the rubber seals of their M60 machineguns to make them look nice and shiney. Nevermind that it also caused the guns to fail in combat.

Given the choice, who should the military give their attention to: the sharp looking guy who is an idiot or the sloppy looking guy who knows his stuff? Sorry, I don't mean to ruffle feathers but as much as CAP needs to improve,  so does the Real Military.

[Hawk200]

. . . The military focuses a great deal on appearance, and without presenting an appearance that's equally detail oriented, you won't get their attention. . .

What a shame our military hasn't evolved past that.  There was a time when our military felt that being Black looked bad too. At least we have evolved past that.

I seem to remember a time when our Army in West Germany would have its soldiers use nail polish on the rubber seals of their M60 machineguns to make them look nice and shiney. Nevermind that it also caused the guns to fail in combat.

Yeah, it would probably be a bad thing to show military personnel our machine guns with the nail polish on them. It would definitely give the wrong impression.

Can we get real now?

What we're concerned with is presenting a professional appearance. That means ironing and tucking in your shirt, shining your shoes (if yours require it), wearing your hat (or stowing it) properly, and generally looking sharp. When it comes to a dress uniform, be it Air Force or corporate, looking sharp is the norm, not the exception.

If you're not willing to do that, then you're part of the problem. The military is not going to change it's viewpoint on appearance, and their standards get more stringent as time passes. They're not going to just drop their standards because you only want to play your way.

Now would you like to explain what machine guns in Germany have to do with our appearance?

[Hawk200]

Given the choice, who should the military give their attention to: the sharp looking guy who is an idiot or the sloppy looking guy who knows his stuff? Sorry, I don't mean to ruffle feathers but as much as CAP needs to improve,  so does the Real Military.

Nice time to edit....

The scenario you proposed is normal in the military. It's also normal for society. It's not just the military that has the problem, it's civilization in general. Once society changes, the military will follow suit. To blame the military is not looking at the big picture.

[Nomex Maximus]

Now would you like to explain what machine guns in Germany have to do with our appearance?

It was claimed that appearance is oh so important to getting things done with the military. The example offered was that being concerned with appearance is not always a smart thing for the military to be concerned with. What was more important back then to those Real Military in West Germany in the 1980's? Passing an inspection or being ready for combat? Apparently back then, looking good was more important than being ready to win a war. Appearances are not as important as people around here seem to think they are, nor should they be. Stressing what we look like more than what we are capable of doing is not something good for CAP. That is my point.

[Nomex Maximus]

This is rich!  Hollywood couldn't pay enough for someone to think this stuff up.

Moronus Maximus would have us equate racial discrimination with a desire to maintain some semblance of professional appearance.  I am quite sure the giants of the civil rights movement are spinning in their graves about now.

I am certain that most of you fellow posters here have by now concluded that Moronus is a pathetic fool with a massive inferiority complex.  Probably another fantasy worlder with a keyboard but otherwise completely unable to exist in normal (decent) society and as such is only minimally (if at all) accomplished.  I would be willing to wager he (it?, she?) is not even a member from the character of several of the posts.

The weak, foolish and useful idiots exist and even sometimes prosper within a structure that is built, maintained and defended by far better men and women who ask very little in return.  

Such is the nature of a free society.  Unfortunate, but it has always been so.

And I believe the tone of this posting violates the forum rules. And CAP core values.

[whatevah]

This is rich!  Hollywood couldn't pay enough for someone to think this stuff up.

Moronus Maximus would have us equate racial discrimination with a desire to maintain some semblance of professional appearance.  I am quite sure the giants of the civil rights movement are spinning in their graves about now.

I am certain that most of you fellow posters here have by now concluded that Moronus is a pathetic fool with a massive inferiority complex.  Probably another fantasy worlder with a keyboard but otherwise completely unable to exist in normal (decent) society and as such is only minimally (if at all) accomplished.  I would be willing to wager he (it?, she?) is not even a member from the character of several of the posts.

The weak, foolish and useful idiots exist and even sometimes prosper within a structure that is built, maintained and defended by far better men and women who ask very little in return.  

Such is the nature of a free society.  Unfortunate, but it has always been so.

wooooah!   way to shut down the thread, aveighter!

this thread is locked until it can be thoroughly reviewed.