Senior Member D&C

[♠SARKID♠]

And this is where I make a call of "off-topic" 

[Nomex Maximus]

I think its a great idea in theory. But in my squadron most of the senior members are over 70 yeras old. They will quickly tell you that you cant "mandate" anything in Civil Air Patrol. I think its a crappy attitude to have but they look at me a  youn senior member.

My seniors have never fell into formation. For them, they just come at the scheduled time and go into their room and meet. There are no formations. Half of them dont wear uniforms. I try to set the example for the few cadets I have though

Time for a shake up.  If we loose say 5 70+ year old Lt Col's, so be it.  Uniform mandatory at each meeting.  Formation and C&C as well.  I am so sick of hearing, "well I don't work around the Cadets, so I don't have to do that stuff". 

Yeah, that's a great idea. Let's tell our two most senior members, the one's who have each given over 50 years of service, one who is an incident commander, let's tell them thatr they need to start doing D&C and wear full uniform to each meeting or else we will drum them out as bad examples to the cadets. Yeah that will teach soemthing good to the cadets... NOT.

[Hawk200]

Yeah, that's a great idea. Let's tell our two most senior members, the one's who have each given over 50 years of service, one who is an incident commander, let's tell them thatr they need to start doing D&C and wear full uniform to each meeting or else we will drum them out as bad examples to the cadets. Yeah that will teach soemthing good to the cadets... NOT.

I will agree that we do have some members with a great deal of experience in CAP. But I have noticed that some of the ones that have a lot of history are resistant to doing anything other than what they feel like doing. And that includes some serious issues on the safety side. If someone doesn't wear a uniform properly, that reflects badly on the organization. If someone doesn't follow safety procedures, it could cost CAP money (at best) or a life (the worst). Should they get a pass because they have such history?

I'm starting to think that D&C as mandatory for seniors is a no-go concept. As a voluntary idea, I would be all for it. I imagine that the ones that do want to do it are probably the ones that would wear the more "formal" uniforms(blues, white/greys, or blue/white). Some of the other "casual" members probably wouldn't. And before anyone protests, I'm not saying that people that wear golf shirts won't be interested. Many of them are actually experts at D&C.

[BillB]

I've got 50 years in CAP and understand D&C. But I really see no need for seniors to fall into a formation which is mainly for cadets to start with. You'll find that senior members that formally were cadets understand D&C, but they also know that senior members without a cadet or military background have no use for D&C or C&C for that matter. Have five seniors walk down a street and meet a cadet and the cadet salutes, and only two seniors return the salute correctly and you've discovered which were former cadets or military. Rather than D&C I'd much rather see seniors learn C&C, it's more applicable to the senior program.

[flyguy06]

This is kind of getting off topic and its partially my fault. So, I will start another thread, because I am enjoying you alls opinions and would like more

[ELTHunter]

At the risk of getting flamed for my opinion on this topic, I'm going to go ahead and present it any way.  First off though, I'm going to say that I am the Deputy Commander for Cadets so I do come to pretty much every meeting in either BDU's or the blue service dress depending upon what the uniform of the day is for the cadets for that meeting.  I wear the uniform proudly, and challenge my cadets to catch me with my uniform out of regulation in any way.  I also stand formation and know D&C.  However, I think to require or even expect the other senior members to do that is pretty unrealistic.  I know many very competent seniors who never wear an AF style uniform but represent CAP in a very professional manner.  Requiring them to stand formation and drill would not increase their ability or professionalism in the least.  I did join the organization for the military aspects as well as the flying and SAR opportunities, but most of them either don't care about that, or have BTDT.

It seems to me that these kinds of suggestions are usually brought up by either current "real" military, guard or reserve people, former military people that want to relive those days, or military want-to-be's.  If you have a group of like minded senior members in your unit that wish to wear a uniform, form up and drill, by all means, go to it.  But having the attitude that everybody else ought to do it or leave is going a bit too far.  Some of these guy's have given 20 years to CAP and are still working 20 or thirty hours a week doing all the admin crap that keeps the organization going but nobody else wants to do.  Tell them to do it or leave, and you'll be cutting your own throat.  After all, when they joined, it was understood that they didn't have to wear a uniform and drill.

[flyguy06]

At the risk of getting flamed for my opinion on this topic, I'm going to go ahead and present it any way.  First off though, I'm going to say that I am the Deputy Commander for Cadets so I do come to pretty much every meeting in either BDU's or the blue service dress depending upon what the uniform of the day is for the cadets for that meeting.  I wear the uniform proudly, and challenge my cadets to catch me with my uniform out of regulation in any way.  I also stand formation and know D&C.  However, I think to require or even expect the other senior members to do that is pretty unrealistic.  I know many very competent seniors who never wear an AF style uniform but represent CAP in a very professional manner.  Requiring them to stand formation and drill would not increase their ability or professionalism in the least.  I did join the organization for the military aspects as well as the flying and SAR opportunities, but most of them either don't care about that, or have BTDT.

It seems to me that these kinds of suggestions are usually brought up by either current "real" military, guard or reserve people, former military people that want to relive those days, or military want-to-be's.  If you have a group of like minded senior members in your unit that wish to wear a uniform, form up and drill, by all means, go to it.  But having the attitude that everybody else ought to do it or leave is going a bit too far.  Some of these guy's have given 20 years to CAP and are still working 20 or thirty hours a week doing all the admin crap that keeps the organization going but nobody else wants to do.  Tell them to do it or leave, and you'll be cutting your own throat.  After all, when they joined, it was understood that they didn't have to wear a uniform and drill.

I agree with that.

[Nomex Maximus]

Hear, hear, ELTHunter.

[♠SARKID♠]

Yeah, that's a great idea. Let's tell our two most senior members, the one's who have each given over 50 years of service, one who is an incident commander, let's tell them thatr they need to start doing D&C and wear full uniform to each meeting or else we will drum them out as bad examples to the cadets. Yeah that will teach soemthing good to the cadets... NOT.

Dont forget, when I started this thread, I made it as an argument for presentation to the public not the cadets.  Though it would be a good example for cadets, Im arguing our view in the public eye: to visitors and guests at squadron meetings who will inevitably come in contact with these seniors and expect them to act as they should.

[ZigZag911]

I still think every senior needs to know the basics.

Make it part of Level 1, Level 2, UCC. Let it come into effect by attrition....don't run any of the old timers out who resist, but get the newer folks on board.

Give it enough time, and it will once again become part of the 'CAP culture'.

[Nomex Maximus]

OK how about this. The next time you set up a recruiting booth at an airshow or some such event trying to get pilots to join up, tell them as you talk to them that in order for them to serve as an ES SAR DR or CD pilot or on an aircrew that they will have to:

1) have at least 175 hours PIC
2) get checked out twice - once as a CAP pilot and again as a mission pilot
3) that they will have to buy and wear several different types of uniforms
4) that if they don't meet height and weight requirements that they have to wear a distinctive uniform that identifies them as "fat"
5) oh and by the way, they will have to learn to march and stand in formation and prepare for uniform inspections at every weekly meeting.

Yeah, that'll really boost recruitment...

[Sgt. Savage]

OK how about this. The next time you set up a recruiting booth at an airshow or some such event trying to get pilots to join up, tell them as you talk to them that in order for them to serve as an ES SAR DR or CD pilot or on an aircrew that they will have to:

1) have at least 175 hours PIC
2) get checked out twice - once as a CAP pilot and again as a mission pilot
3) that they will have to buy and wear several different types of uniforms
4) that if they don't meet height and weight requirements that they have to wear a distinctive uniform that identifies them as "fat"
5) oh and by the way, they will have to learn to march and stand in formation and prepare for uniform inspections at every weekly meeting.

Yeah, that'll really boost recruitment...

Though I believe your trying to be purposefully absurd, at least they would no not to join, instead of joining and dropping out in a few months, after they found these things out.

Many activities in CAP, even SM activities, take place in a military setting. Military courtesy is supposed to be displayed at all times. This is per regulation. Promotions and changes of command take place in formation, just refer to the CAPP that covers such things. These are not new ideas. The fact is, obstructionists refuse to comply with what is expected of them. If you know that you are expected to be in uniform and be at least familiar with how to perform in a formation and refuse to do it, you don't belong here, period.

Stop using the "volunteer" flag as an excuse for failing to meet the standard. If you think the regulation is hurting the organization, change it.

[flyguy06]

3) that they will have to buy and wear several different types of uniforms

They dont have to buy several types of uniforms. Just because several types are authorized doesnt mean they HAVE to wear them all. When Ifly I only wear the Flight suit. Everytime.

[JohnKachenmeister]

OK how about this. The next time you set up a recruiting booth at an airshow or some such event trying to get pilots to join up, tell them as you talk to them that in order for them to serve as an ES SAR DR or CD pilot or on an aircrew that they will have to:

1) have at least 175 hours PIC
2) get checked out twice - once as a CAP pilot and again as a mission pilot
3) that they will have to buy and wear several different types of uniforms
4) that if they don't meet height and weight requirements that they have to wear a distinctive uniform that identifies them as "fat"
5) oh and by the way, they will have to learn to march and stand in formation and prepare for uniform inspections at every weekly meeting.

Yeah, that'll really boost recruitment...

175 hours PIC?  Sure.  I'll tell them that.  I will tell them that the flying we do in CAP is NOT the flying that a rookie private pilot should be doing.  We engage in  maneuvering flight in the 500-1000 feet AGL range.  A 100-hour private pilot will kill himself and his crew trying that.  it is exactly the kind of flying that your instructor told you to avoid.  We are not up to the standard of a military combat aviator, but we ain't no slackards, neither.

Checkouts?  Twice?  Sure.  Once to start a mission-pilot training program, to make sure you are ready, and once as your final exam to get rated.  Once a year after that, plus mandatory safety briefings, review of your flight profile by a flight release officer, and a lot of paperwork.  Welcome to the Air Force.  If you can't hack it, OK.  Stay home.

Uniforms?  Hell yes.  ALL officers buy their own uniforms.  At least with CAP you get to buy them as you need them.  When I was commissioned I had to spring for about $700 worth of uniforms by OCS graduation.  Then 6 months later I got my initial uniform allowance, $250.  It isn't the cost in money to buy the uniform, its the cost in committment, time, and sometimes blood that earns the privilege of wearing it. 

Fat?  Sorry.  I hate the fat guy uniforms, too.  Lose the weight.  I did.

Uniforms and inspections?  Patton said:  "An officer is always on parade."  Your uniform has to be right all the time, everywhere you go.  Formations are a military fact of life, and a part of our shared culture. 

Nomex, I hate to say it, but your attitude sets you apart from the mainstream much more than your fat-guy uniform.   

[floridacyclist]

Hi, my name is gene nad I wear a "fat-guy" uniform.

It's my pride in my uniform that keeps me in Navy Blue because it is the proper thing to do even though I am "Only" 25 lbs over (and losing). I see a lot of people with more rank than I have that should be ashamed to be in Camo or AF blues; I have a hard time seeing them as professional or military due to the simple disrespect that they pay to our country's military uniform and the regulations regarding it's wear.

They might not be AF-issue, but I try to take care of my BBDUs as if I were still standing guardmount in SAC.

[JC004]

Hi, my name is gene nad I wear a "fat-guy" uniform.

It's my pride in my uniform that keeps me in Navy Blue because it is the proper thing to do even though I am "Only" 25 lbs over (and losing). I see a lot of people with more rank than I have that should be ashamed to be in Camo or AF blues; I have a hard time seeing them as professional or military due to the simple disrespect that they pay to our country's military uniform and the regulations regarding it's wear.

They might not be AF-issue, but I try to take care of my BBDUs as if I were still standing guardmount in SAC.

Thank you for having the integrity that some don't have.

[JayT]

OK how about this. The next time you set up a recruiting booth at an airshow or some such event trying to get pilots to join up, tell them as you talk to them that in order for them to serve as an ES SAR DR or CD pilot or on an aircrew that they will have to:

1) have at least 175 hours PIC
2) get checked out twice - once as a CAP pilot and again as a mission pilot
3) that they will have to buy and wear several different types of uniforms
4) that if they don't meet height and weight requirements that they have to wear a distinctive uniform that identifies them as "fat"
5) oh and by the way, they will have to learn to march and stand in formation and prepare for uniform inspections at every weekly meeting.

Yeah, that'll really boost recruitment...

Did you have some bad experience you want to share with all of us?

I'm sorry we're not some hard core, hard charging, devil may care, to hell with the rules two aircraft a day finding pararescue SAR organization.

But we are a pesudo military organization, with a long military based tradition. If you don't like that, join the local volunteer fire department. Join the local ambulence company. Put your application in for the police academy. This club has rules, and if you don't want to follow them, then you may want to find something else.

I'm about ten pounds over the weight limit, and I spent the extra couple of bucks to pick up the right uniforms (Did I mention I'm an 19 year old college stupid?)

[Nomex Maximus]

What do you guys think of having senior members take a manditory basic Drill and Ceremonies class?  The ...

JThelman - See above. My answer is no, it would be a bad idea. Sorry if that greatly frustrates people but I don't think it is something that needs to be mandatory. In particular I think that making the adults dress up and play soldier is a really bad idea. The question was asked.

I also think it is unfair that I should be told to leave the organization just cuz I have a differing opinion. Awfully narrowminded of the military wannabe types I should say. I say that if you really want to do all the D&C stuff you ought to go and join the Real Military - if you think I should leave because I don't want to do it.

John Kachenmeister - you didn't get what I was trying to convey. I have no problem doing the first four things on my list. The fourth is going to rub a few potential recruits the wrong way. It's the fifth one (and the whole point of this thread) that would be the deal buster in my opinion. Tell people that they have to do all this stuff, put in lots of volunteer hours abiding by CAP regulations, and oh, by the way, we want you to always dress up in a fancy uniform each week and stand in some formation and be inspected by someone else who also isn't in the Real Military. We have a hard enough time attracting the people who are willing to do all that it takes to do the first four items. We don't need to pile on number five.

[Sgt. Savage]

What do you guys think of having senior members take a mandatory basic Drill and Ceremonies class?  The ...

JThelman - See above. My answer is no, it would be a bad idea. Sorry if that greatly frustrates people but I don't think it is something that needs to be mandatory. In particular I think that making the adults dress up and play soldier is a really bad idea. The question was asked.

I also think it is unfair that I should be told to leave the organization just cuz I have a differing opinion. Awfully narrowminded of the military wannabe types I should say. I say that if you really want to do all the D&C stuff you ought to go and join the Real Military - if you think I should leave because I don't want to do it.

The unfortunate reality of a message board is that you don't always know who your speaking to.

Nomex, I own the t-shirt. Hell, i even helped design it. YOU didn't come here to play "Soldier". Did you come here to play CAP? Maybe if you were familiar the responsibilities you have agreed to fulfill, you would be less apt to talk about others playing soldier and more inclined to recognize that perhaps you should be doing more.

Drill, ceremony, customs and military courtesies are MANDATORY training in level one. What has been suggested is that we try a little harder so that when SM's form up for a change of command, they don't look like idiots.

Might I ask, which regulation states you don't have to do these things?

[RogueLeader]

What do you guys think of having senior members take a manditory basic Drill and Ceremonies class?  The ...

JThelman - See above. My answer is no, it would be a bad idea. Sorry if that greatly frustrates people but I don't think it is something that needs to be mandatory. In particular I think that making the adults dress up and play soldier is a really bad idea. The question was asked.

I also think it is unfair that I should be told to leave the organization just cuz I have a differing opinion. Awfully narrowminded of the military wannabe types I should say. I say that if you really want to do all the D&C stuff you ought to go and join the Real Military - if you think I should leave because I don't want to do it.

Then why are you in a paramilitary organization?  You can take CAP or not.  CAP has the military background.  It is our tradition.  As far as D&C, I do not think it is too much to ask that all members know how to fall in for formation, basic movements- for promotions and such, and saluting.  I think that memorizing the AFMAN 36-2203 is a bad idea, as is practicing parade formations or a pass in review.

Like it or not, we will be judged by outside people as to how valuable we could be to them.  If we look bad/unprofessional- we will not be called, no matter what we really can do.

Uniform inspections are good for a couple of reasons.
1- the Cadets do them, we should not expect them to do something we do not- PT the exception.
2- Provides members the ability to correct defects in uniforms that they missed
3- Reflects Credit to AF and CAP when looking good- see above about other people see us.

Do I think that there should be senior UI every week no.  Every other month or quarter, sure.  For example, last night I accidentally mixed a Winter Bottom w/ summer top.  How was I going to know that I did?  I didn't see it before, and I know that I wore the same combination before.  Now I know.