The CAP NCO Program - your experience?

[Eclipse]

What's this myth about confusion existing as to the roles and authorities of CAP members in relation to USAF personnel?

I don't think I've ever come across that despite the fact that I keep hearing about it.

I raised it in the context of the comments we hear that without grade...

"No one will know who is in charge"

"When we work with outside agencies they won't respect us / know who is in charge."

"We have to model the grades for the cadets."

Etc., etc.

And then of course the wives tails of how we are treated on bases, misguided members
telling airman not to salute them, the rare (but real) issue of actual stolen valor (coupled with the less rare accusations of wannabeism) or some numbnutz dressing down someone for not rendering courtesies.

All fallacies if for no other reason CAP's grade implementation model is wholly broken.

[Eclipse]

In this example, you have a relatively inexperienced corps of senior cadre who don't really know much from a military perspective thrust into a paramilitary training culture, like that of a JROTC. Without that experience, they don't really get the gist of what the difference is between a Flight Sergeant or First Sergeant. They think the Cadet Second Lieutenant has worked really hard, and they appoint him to be the Cadet Commander despite the fact that when asked what the difference is between officers and NCOs during a review board, he says "Well, officers make the decisions and NCOs follow the orders." Okay, it suffices.

And this is the top reason no one should be put into any position of authority, leadership, or training, until they, themselves, have been trained and vetted - very difficult in today's CAP.

I'm coming to the point where I'm caring so little about anyone's grade and the fact that I run across numerous "officers" who couldn't tell you the difference between an officer and an NCO in the military, let alone in CAP, let alone in the Cadet Program.

Ditto, years ago.  It would be dishonest to say that as a new member I wasn't attracted to the pomp and circumstance,
and I still participate and enjoy it, but it also didn't take very long for me to figure out how CAP's broken grade implementation is a detriment from every angle, recruiting, retention, unit ops, the works, made worse by people in the chain who dole out promotions with eye dropper as if they actually had to deal with budgets and billets.

If cadets were treated in the way many adults are in regards to promotion approvals, CAP could bank on shutting it's doors in a year.

We worry about so much stuff like insignia that we're not spending that energy on training improvements at the local level, and with a lack of mentoring from Wings in assisting those local units in fulfilling their duties.

This is probably the place CAP has always showed consistency - the inexplicable inability to identify and emphasize the things that are actually important to members and the mission, ultimately to the detriment of all sides of the conversation.

"Grade isn't important, except that it is, unless it isn't, and also it doesn't matter, except to some members it's critical to recruiting and retention, but no one should join for the grade, although ultimately it's not...so did you want to join?"

[Mitchell 1969]

Can you name ONE military-based cadet program, anywhere in the world, where NONE of the leaders wear uniforms, have ranks and are addressed as such by their cadets?

Can you name ONE military based-cadet program that operates in the manner that CAP does, has an operational
component which includes an adult program, and has Lt Cols reporting to 2nd Lts and an NCO corps without
enlisted personnel?  Perfect "model" for cadets to understand how things work.

Heck, for that matter, name ONE military-based cadet program that has 1/2 or more of the adult leadership
in a different uniform altogether despite there being no difference in their status.

I believe "Sir, Ma'am, Mr., & Ms." are still function and appropriate addresses that would work in lieu of grade when addressing adults.

Also, you might want to re-read, I am not advocating getting rid of the military uniforms, my only comment to that
effect was that you can still wear them without any grade, which would actually eliminate a lot of issues
people purport members have.

Can you name ONE military-based cadet program, anywhere in the world, where NONE of the leaders wear uniforms, have ranks and are addressed as such by their cadets?

Can you name ONE military based-cadet program that operates in the manner that CAP does, has an operational
component which includes an adult program, and has Lt Cols reporting to 2nd Lts and an NCO corps without
enlisted personnel?  Perfect "model" for cadets to understand how things work.

Heck, for that matter, name ONE military-based cadet program that has 1/2 or more of the adult leadership
in a different uniform altogether despite there being no difference in their status.

I believe "Sir, Ma'am, Mr., & Ms." are still function and appropriate addresses that would work in lieu of grade when addressing adults.

Also, you might want to re-read, I am not advocating getting rid of the military uniforms, my only comment to that
effect was that you can still wear them without any grade, which would actually eliminate a lot of issues
people purport members have.

1). You didn't answer my question.

2). You moved my goalposts to suit your strawman.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SarDragon]

Let's keep it clean, folks. Bacon needs to catch up a little more before we shut this off.

[JohhnyD]

If cadets were treated in the way many adults are in regards to promotion approvals, CAP could bank on shutting it's doors in a year.

You stumbled on to a great truth. Ponder that statement carefully, as it truly defines a major issue.

[Spam]

Let's keep it clean, folks. Bacon needs to catch up a little more before we shut this off.

Modified my vote: I so concur on the Bacon.

V/r
Spam

[Private Investigator]

Let's keep it clean, folks. Bacon needs to catch up a little more before we shut this off.

Another vote (or two or three ...) for bacon.

[UWONGO2]

What's this myth about confusion existing as to the roles and authorities of CAP members in relation to USAF personnel?

I can only speak to my personal experiences, but I've encountered confusion from military personnel (enlisted and officers) more than once. The language used varies, but essentially a group will send one sacrificial lamb over and politely ask if they may ask a question (a bit redundant - but whatever). The question is typically some variation of "what branch are you?" followed by "do we have to salute you?". It's the answer to the latter question that sends them off like giddy elementary school kids skipping back to their group to share their new intel.

There was certainly no harm done by any of the confusion in the handful of times it's happened to me, but but it does happen.

[JohhnyD]

What, exactly, is the 'special' part only NCOs wearing NCO stripes can play? That is the overriding question that has NEVER been answered.

As we start onboarding the new NCOs (our SM cohort recruiting this quarter has aimed at them with great success) we are already seeing amazing results.

1 - Two of them are active duty Air NG and Honor Guard members. They are already starting to transform our cadet color guard and the drill and ceremonies part of the cadet program will undoubtedly be enhanced as well. Only prior or current service NCOs can be as effective.

2 - Three of the other current service NCOs have already used their military connections to enhance supply, our ABU and field gear stock is now adequate for the first time ever. Again, civilians have a hard time building those connections, these NCOs live them.

There. Two CONCRETE areas (and there are many more) where NCOs are unique.

[Eclipse]

There. Two CONCRETE areas (and there are many more) where NCOs these people are unique.

FTFY.

These are areas where you've had happenstance success finding people with
connections who randomly have skills relevent to your unit. Hardly the justification
for a CAP NCO program.  The fact that you don't understand that indicates you're
not clear on the issue in this discussion.

No one has ever said people who were or are former military don't have unique
connections and skills to bring to CAP, or that they are not needed, but that is no different
then the thousands of LEOs, FDs, CPAs, pilots, PTA Moms, project managers, and landscapers
who join every year and do the same, nor is it justification or reason to create an entire new
program around an idea that has no analog within the organizaiton.

You know, like all the generals who join that can't wear their stars?

So only NCO's know how to drill?  Interesting.
So if they'd wandered into a Senior Flight or a unit with no interest in color guard
they would have been shown the door?

And your supply guys, they are going to do what NCO-specific duties, exactly, once those uniforms are counted and both of the radios are inventoried? In this case, you're actually saying that their value stems
from bringing equipment to your unit.  Sounds like a Nebraska Admiral.

[JohhnyD]

Yes, they can play the same very real part as EVERY OTHER MEMBER who responds plays. There no special NCO part for them to play.

Well, except it appears that there is. And you appear to not like it. Odd.

What, exactly, is the 'special' part only NCOs wearing NCO stripes can play? That is the overriding question that has NEVER been answered.

Join the National Command Chief as he speaks about the value of the NCO Corps to the Civil Air Patrol. He will provide a timeline of his journey with the NCO Corps and share examples of the wonderful accomplishments our NCOs have made throughout "CAPville, USA" . CAP NCOs retain their traditional roles of technician, mentor and advisor mirroring t...

[Fubar]

Join the National Command Chief as he speaks about the value of the NCO Corps to the Civil Air Patrol.

"When I joined in 2003 and I got this card in the mail that said 2nd Lt, I was insulted!"

            - Chief Master Sergeant Robert Dandridge, 2020 National Conference Presentation

[Eclipse]

CAP NCOs retain their traditional roles of technician, mentor and advisor mirroring t...

As opposed to...

This discussion is put to rest with a single articulated CAP-relevent duty that can only
be performed by an NCO.

20 years.

Nothing.

[Eclipse]

Join the National Command Chief as he speaks about the value of the NCO Corps to the Civil Air Patrol.

"When I joined in 2003 and I got this card in the mail that said 2nd Lt, I was insulted!"

            - Chief Master Sergeant Robert Dandridge, 2020 National Conference Presentation

I know the Chief and have worked directly with him.  Good man, excellent leader, outstanding example,
CAP needs lots more like him. His USAF pedigree is not only rock-solid, but frankly pretty remarkable.

He's definitely marching in the same line as Chief Wright and others at that level.  Certainly if any
would be able to come up strong, supportable, CAP-contextual duties fro NCOs it would be him.

And yet...

I've never seen him do anything as an "NCO", that the rest of the people in the room, officers, SMWOGs,
and Sponsors were not also doing.

[JohhnyD]

This discussion is put to rest with a single articulated CAP-relevent duty that can only
be performed by an NCO.

My unit CC has been on a tear, recruited a dozen NCOs this last month. Already have seen the following that it is unlikely a non-NCO could have done:

1 - Leveraged their NCO network to get us massive donations of ABUs and ABU field gear from mutiple local and statewide military commands.

2 - Brought in two NCO Honor Guard members who are already revolutionizing our Color Guard and stand ready to build out our drill and ceremonies and military customs and courtesies to a fine edge.

3 - Jumped in, tackled, and are taking on long-needed admin tasks, up to speed in days and weeks.

Amazing can-do spirit and a no BS approach.

You can carp all you want, but what I've seen in the last few days has me convinced that one NCO is worth a dozen "all talk" run of the mill naysayers.

BTW Having a positive, "hell on wheels" CC is a blessing.

[Eclipse]

You can carp all you want, but what I've seen in the last few days has me convinced that one NCO person with connections who is interested in working is worth a dozen "all talk" run of the mill naysayers.

FTFY, and seriously, who would argue that?

You're confirming the point that recruiting people with connections is good for CAP,
yet you haven't yet indicated a single thing their super-powered stripes bring to the
table that anyone else with the same connections would bring.

Someone from the CBP color Guard and the owner of a surplus store could have provided
the same resources via the same happenstance recruiting.

So...we've now established, new members with connections are better then your current members who apparently
didn't' do anything.

So stipulated.

[JohhnyD]

yet you haven't yet indicated a single thing their super-powered stripes bring to the
table that anyone else with the same connections would bring.

Only NCOs have NCO connections. Only NCOs have the precision Honor Guard and military experience. You want NCO connection, you get NCOs. You want NCO focus, you get NCOs. Or not. You go ahead and pretend it does not matter, my CC just proved you to be another dark-net naysayer. Enjoy.

Q.E.D.

(That's Latin for sorry, you are wrong.)

[Stonewall]

yet you haven't yet indicated a single thing their super-powered stripes bring to the
table that anyone else with the same connections would bring.

Only NCOs have NCO connections. Only NCOs have the precision Honor Guard and military experience. You want NCO connection, you get NCOs. You want NCO focus, you get NCOs. Or not. You go ahead and pretend it does not matter, my CC just proved you to be another dark-net naysayer. Enjoy.

Q.E.D.

(That's Latin for sorry, you are wrong.)

So my connections as an Air Force CMSgt don't count because I'm an officer In CAP? Weird.

Or the fact that we have several Air Force officers in our CAP squadron, to include the CC and CDC? I guess their connections are moot because they're CAP officers.

Really, this is lame. Anyone of those members, regardless of rank,  would bring the same to the table. Even if they were just a parent of a cadet who wanted to help out.

[JohhnyD]

yet you haven't yet indicated a single thing their super-powered stripes bring to the
table that anyone else with the same connections would bring.

Only NCOs have NCO connections. Only NCOs have the precision Honor Guard and military experience. You want NCO connection, you get NCOs. You want NCO focus, you get NCOs. Or not. You go ahead and pretend it does not matter, my CC just proved you to be another dark-net naysayer. Enjoy.

Q.E.D.

(That's Latin for sorry, you are wrong.)

So my connections as an Air Force CMSgt don't count because I'm an officer In CAP? Weird.

Or the fact that we have several Air Force officers in our CAP squadron, to include the CC and CDC? I guess their connections are moot because they're CAP officers.

Really, this is lame. Anyone of those members, regardless of rank,  would bring the same to the table. Even if they were just a parent of a cadet who wanted to help out.

Of course they count. The difference is the NCOs identify as such and act as such. If you choose the traditional path - good on you, but until the NCO corp is fleshed out it appears command intent remains that they are unique in CAP as being 100% veteran or active duty and we see the value in that. Your service, both in the military and CAP are not the question and are very much appreciated and respected. What is the question is the value of the NCO program and in less than a month my CC has proven that value to our team. Your mileage may vary.

[JohhnyD]

One other point, many of them have said they choose NOT to wear officers rank, they feel as Chief Dandridge does. Just sayin.