Background check question

[Dracosbane]

I ran into a guy I've known for a long time recently and we got to talking about CAP membership.  He had the typical questions, but there were others that I didn't know the answer to that I thought it best to see if someone else knew before I gave him any further information.

He went into the Army several years ago, and for reasons I only partially know about the whole story, he received a Big Chicken Dinner.  Would this be a reason that would prevent a person from becoming a member?  Would it depend on the reason for the BCD?

[Pylon]

A BCD precludes senior membership on two basis of CAP membership eligibility.  CAPR 39-2, Section 3-2(d) Requirements for Membership, Suitability states that a member would be disqualified for membership for being discharged from the Armed Forces under any condition other than honorable, and also for any conviction of a felony by a federal, state, or military court.  The BCD is both a non-honorable discharge and is also a felony conviction from a military court (court martial). 

In order to join, he would need to have these impediments to membership waived by both the COO (formerly called the Executive Director) and the National Commander.  Without a signed waiver from both of those individuals, he is ineligible to join Civil Air Patrol.

http://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/r039_002_a74fda9552c2d.pdf

[Dracosbane]

Gracias, Pylon.  Wanted to make sure.  I'll be sure to tell him no if I speak to him.

[NCRblues]

NHQ has said that "Honorable" and "General with Honorable conditions" is acceptable. So, nothing less than that and I have never seen a waiver issued for a BCD.

Why would you even want to join a military style organization after getting a BCD anyway?

[SarDragon]

NHQ has said that "Honorable" and "General with Honorable conditions" is acceptable. So, nothing less than that and I have never seen a waiver issued for a BCD.

Why would you even want to join a military style organization after getting a BCD anyway?

I had a friend who made one particularly bad behavioural decision as a 19 yo draftee in the Army, and got a BCD. He has been a model citizen since then. Got a job, went to work and paid for the education he otherwise screwed himself out of, and is a successful civil engineer. People can, and have, turned their lives around.

[jimmydeanno]

NHQ has said that "Honorable" and "General with Honorable conditions" is acceptable. So, nothing less than that and I have never seen a waiver issued for a BCD.

Why would you even want to join a military style organization after getting a BCD anyway?

I had a friend who made one particularly bad behavioural decision as a 19 yo draftee in the Army, and got a BCD. He has been a model citizen since then. Got a job, went to work and paid for the education he otherwise screwed himself out of, and is a successful civil engineer. People can, and have, turned their lives around.

Wait a minute...are you telling me that our justice system did what it was supposed to do and that society accepted someone back in afterwards?   

I always believed that our justice system was supposed to be there to settle the debt, so once you've done your time, it's settled.  Now, it's almost a life sentence for anything you do.  Employers won't hire you or you lose your job, can't work in certain industries, you get the reputation of being a criminal for life, etc.

We have people that make stupid teenage mistakes that end up costing them their entire lives.  It's sad, really.

[Cliff_Chambliss]

Actually the old attitudes are changing almost daily. In my "other" life I am the Controller/Human Resources Manager for a construction company. At a working breakfast with our legal advisors last month the topic was background checks and criminal records checks for potential employees. The presenter stated that recent decisions at the federal level is while background checks are still OK (for the time being anyway) we had better be very careful in denying employment solely based on arrest/convictions. He went on to say that we can only deny employment if the conviction was for a related matter. In other words I can refuse to hire a cashier convicted for embezzlement, but I cannot legally deny employment to an otherwise qualified person as a carpenter or electrician based on the same offense.
Good or bad I m not going to comment on, I'll just have to wait and see what shakes out. As it is I see way too many people looking for a paycheck and way too few looking for work.

[Private Investigator]

NHQ has said that "Honorable" and "General with Honorable conditions" is acceptable. So, nothing less than that and I have never seen a waiver issued for a BCD.

Why would you even want to join a military style organization after getting a BCD anyway?

I had a friend who made one particularly bad behavioural decision as a 19 yo draftee in the Army, and got a BCD. He has been a model citizen since then. Got a job, went to work and paid for the education he otherwise screwed himself out of, and is a successful civil engineer. People can, and have, turned their lives around.

Wait a minute...are you telling me that our justice system did what it was supposed to do and that society accepted someone back in afterwards?   

I always believed that our justice system was supposed to be there to settle the debt, so once you've done your time, it's settled.  Now, it's almost a life sentence for anything you do.  Employers won't hire you or you lose your job, can't work in certain industries, you get the reputation of being a criminal for life, etc.

We have people that make stupid teenage mistakes that end up costing them their entire lives.  It's sad, really.

That is because everything is done to the lowest common denominator. For every "one" who got his act together, "five" is still doing stupid.

[Garibaldi]

I'll chime in.

In 1986, I went in the Army and got out a month later due to flat feet. I did not finish basic training, and my DD-214 shows a reenlistment code of RE3, and a separation code of JFT, Entry Level Status,which means no way no how can I get back in even if I was the right age. It is neither a BCD or an honorable, but I was told it was a general discharge. No one ever thought to see if it would disqualify me from being a SM, and it's in my personnel file.

[Private Investigator]

My ex girlfriend was a Recruiter and she would have got you a waiver with "RE3, and a separation code of JFT".

When I was a Squadron Commander we had a former Sailor with a General Discharge. NHQ had no problem with that.

[Rick-DEL]

I have a good buddy showing an interest in CAP. But, he is worried, or thinks, he wouldn't be allowed because he was diagnosed with PTSD (not severe) after a few visits to Iraq. I let him know that it shouldn't be a road block for him joining. His discharge was Honorable (USMC) and outside of standard VA visits/counseling, it is unoticeable. He has no felony record so the FBI background check would be clean. He has two boys and is married, participates in LL and within the church, so I see no safety issues. Heck, I didn't even know after knowing him for years.

Any thoughts?

[Stonewall]

I have a good buddy showing an interest in CAP. But, he is worried, or thinks, he wouldn't be allowed because he was diagnosed with PTSD (not severe) after a few visits to Iraq. I let him know that it shouldn't be a road block for him joining. His discharge was Honorable (USMC) and outside of standard VA visits/counseling, it is unoticeable. He has no felony record so the FBI background check would be clean. He has two boys and is married, participates in LL and within the church, so I see no safety issues. Heck, I didn't even know after knowing him for years.

Any thoughts?

Zero issues, period.

People have PTSD, it's natural and it's something people can cope with and move on with.  It's not just a war thing, it's a traumatic thing.  Big long debates on this issue, but at the end of the day, this would NOT keep him from being in CAP. 

[Rick-DEL]

I have a good buddy showing an interest in CAP. But, he is worried, or thinks, he wouldn't be allowed because he was diagnosed with PTSD (not severe) after a few visits to Iraq. I let him know that it shouldn't be a road block for him joining. His discharge was Honorable (USMC) and outside of standard VA visits/counseling, it is unoticeable. He has no felony record so the FBI background check would be clean. He has two boys and is married, participates in LL and within the church, so I see no safety issues. Heck, I didn't even know after knowing him for years.

Any thoughts?

Zero issues, period.

People have PTSD, it's natural and it's something people can cope with and move on with.  It's not just a war thing, it's a traumatic thing.  Big long debates on this issue, but at the end of the day, this would NOT keep him from being in CAP.

Totally agree, that is what I had explained to him. It's much more common than people think.

[Stonewall]

It's much more common than people think.

It is A LOT more common, but what is also common, is people abusing such a diagnosis for financial gain.

In my unit, there are two people at total opposite ends of the spectrum.  A fat chick who was inside a perimeter that was inside a perimeter and never once had contact with the enemy, let alone got shot at.  She had "contact" with some, if you know what I mean, but not in a military way.  This woman has been milking the system for almost 2 years now claiming PTSD. 

Then there's the other guy, a federal agent in his civilian job, who was in direct enemy contact and helped carry out a guy who lost a limb at the risk of his own life.  This guy refuses to seek treatment, drinks like a fish, but has too much pride to admit that there may be an issue.  Look, there IS an issue.  But he's functioning just fine, still carries a badge, a gun, and drives a G-ride every day.

[Rick-DEL]

True. My buddy gets no $$$ in the form of disability, other than a monthly check-in at the VA for a 45 minute chat. No checks...nothing. He is one to stand on his pride as well. Only reason he goes is because his wife pretty much makes him. But, on the other hand, he believes his personal record is stamped all over with the letters PTSD. He is a great guy...like I mentioned, I have known him for years and never knew until he recently mentioned it to me when we starting discussing CAP. In a way, he is almost ashamed. But, I think it was good for him to get it off his chest...sort of a relief that it hasn't changed our friendship, as it shouldn't. He took the oath, did his job, and bore the possibly consequences. I would never fault somebody for that. We have great conversations when we hang out with friends. I am ex-USAF as is another friend, my wife is ex-Navy and this guy is ex-USMC....so smack flies a lot 

[Private Investigator]

True. My buddy gets no $$$ in the form of disability, ...

That is the way it is. The VA needs to change a lot of things. JMHO   

[Private Investigator]

It's much more common than people think.

It is A LOT more common, but what is also common, is people abusing such a diagnosis for financial gain.

In my unit, there are two people at total opposite ends of the spectrum.  A fat chick who was inside a perimeter that was inside a perimeter and never once had contact with the enemy, let alone got shot at.  She had "contact" with some, if you know what I mean, but not in a military way.  This woman has been milking the system for almost 2 years now claiming PTSD. 

Then there's the other guy, a federal agent in his civilian job, who was in direct enemy contact and helped carry out a guy who lost a limb at the risk of his own life.  This guy refuses to seek treatment, drinks like a fish, but has too much pride to admit that there may be an issue.  Look, there IS an issue.  But he's functioning just fine, still carries a badge, a gun, and drives a G-ride every day.

I could see either one committing suicide. You really can not judge who had enough or more than enough. People are built different. Just like some people only could do 3 pullups and others can do 20+. What haunts one may bring gallows or dark humor to another. They both got it but they are in different stages.

[sarmed1]

partial hijack-PTSD is another one of those diseases that is subjective to the patient; there are no quanative test to "see" how bad it REALY is. (like an EKG, blood work, etc etc)

Some people are highly functional with it in how they deal, some require meds and some are non functional.
Unfortunately some over use the crutch that is there (either by thinking that it is worse than it is or just out right abusing it)

But even if you are outed with a PTSD diagnosis in your file, unless you did other "Bad Things" its still a good discharge.

mk

[Devil Doc]

partial hijack-PTSD is another one of those diseases that is subjective to the patient; there are no quanative test to "see" how bad it REALY is. (like an EKG, blood work, etc etc)

Some people are highly functional with it in how they deal, some require meds and some are non functional.
Unfortunately some over use the crutch that is there (either by thinking that it is worse than it is or just out right abusing it)

But even if you are outed with a PTSD diagnosis in your file, unless you did other "Bad Things" its still a good discharge.

mk

Ill chime in? I have been diagnosed with PTSD and mTBI and Work for the VA(Please done shoot me). I function fine in CAP, its a way to still be part of a team and have pride but not going to war or doing duties that are not desired.

Now, what sarmed1 said is absolutely possitively correct. Ive seen people got to the VA, stayed on a FOB, Never Left the Wire, and yet are considered higher rating on PTSD than me. Its all subjective, most of them, get hints from other people on what to say and do, how to dress, act etc. Its a shame. People say that the VA has no Fraud in the System, that is the biggest BS ive ever seen. Im sure most of you have heard about the VA Backlog? I can tell you what most of that is from. Most of the Backlog is from People who are claiming stuff and trying to cheat the system, and because of that, Legit Veterans with problems have to wait longer and longer, and unfortunately the ultimate sacrifice is paid with there lifes. Yes, the System is broken, and the VA and Providers know it, but guess who gets involved if you say something? Senators then Activist Groups, so they just let them get whatever they want. Im not saying if you havnt served combat your not a legit veteran  or dont have issues, im just going on what i habve experienced.

[Duke Dillio]

^^^  My ex-roommate was one of the fraudsters.  He went and peeled potatoes in southern Iraq for a National Guard MP company.  When he came back he made all these claims about being shot at (verified as untrue by a friend who was there).  He was also sporting a XVIII Airborne Corps patch on his right sleeve.  He went in to the VA and got them to diagnose him with PTSD and started receiving benefits.  He was also running around town in his ACU's having people thank him for his service and what not.  When I found out about his little charade, we had a "heart to heart conversation."  Needless to say, when he was able to talk on the phone again (about a week or so later after his jaw healed), he contacted the VA and apologized for his indiscretion.  Before I threw him out for not payin his rent, I made sure to tell him that if he did anything like that again I was going to make a phone call to some friends at Ft. Lewis...

[Critical AOA]

I'll chime in.

In 1986, I went in the Army and got out a month later due to flat feet.

I thought they checked for that condition before they send someone to basic.  Was it previously undiagnosed?

[Devil Doc]

I'll chime in.

In 1986, I went in the Army and got out a month later due to flat feet.

I thought they checked for that condition before they send someone to basic.  Was it previously undiagnosed?

There suppose to, but yet people get Service Connected for Flat Feet. Go Figure.

[FlyTiger77]

I'll chime in.

In 1986, I went in the Army and got out a month later due to flat feet.

I thought they checked for that condition before they send someone to basic.  Was it previously undiagnosed?

There suppose to, but yet people get Service Connected for Flat Feet. Go Figure.

The arches of your feet (or the arch of just a single foot) can fall during military service. If this was due to military service and becomes a disability, then it quite correctly should be considered a service-connected problem.

[Garibaldi]

I'll chime in.

In 1986, I went in the Army and got out a month later due to flat feet.

I thought they checked for that condition before they send someone to basic.  Was it previously undiagnosed?

There suppose to, but yet people get Service Connected for Flat Feet. Go Figure.

The arches of your feet (or the arch of just a single foot) can fall during military service. If this was due to military service and becomes a disability, then it quite correctly should be considered a service-connected problem.

I'm not sure...I never had a problem WIWAC wearing combat boots and marching. Nor did I have a problem running in high school, but put me in a basic training platoon and suddenly I get shin splints so bad I could hardly walk? No one caught it at MEPS. I never once even considered that it could have been a slight problem exacerbated by wearing combat boots 16 hours a day...

[Devil Doc]

I'll chime in.

In 1986, I went in the Army and got out a month later due to flat feet.

I thought they checked for that condition before they send someone to basic.  Was it previously undiagnosed?

There suppose to, but yet people get Service Connected for Flat Feet. Go Figure.

The arches of your feet (or the arch of just a single foot) can fall during military service. If this was due to military service and becomes a disability, then it quite correctly should be considered a service-connected problem.

I'm not sure...I never had a problem WIWAC wearing combat boots and marching. Nor did I have a problem running in high school, but put me in a basic training platoon and suddenly I get shin splints so bad I could hardly walk? No one caught it at MEPS. I never once even considered that it could have been a slight problem exacerbated by wearing combat boots 16 hours a day...

I understand Flat Feet May Occur during Service. It can be questionable, but lets say this person only served 1-2 years, in a non infrantry battalion. Highly Doubtful. Again, im not the VA so i cannot make that decision. Shin Splints is very common in Bootcamp, alot of people get them, it very common in AD also. I wasnt trying to be sarcastic, just trying to give examples of the ludacrious things people get SC for.  I believe background checks should be on a person to person basis, i know alot of 17 year olds who messed up, and are still paying for it.

[Garibaldi]

I'll chime in.

In 1986, I went in the Army and got out a month later due to flat feet.

I thought they checked for that condition before they send someone to basic.  Was it previously undiagnosed?

There suppose to, but yet people get Service Connected for Flat Feet. Go Figure.

The arches of your feet (or the arch of just a single foot) can fall during military service. If this was due to military service and becomes a disability, then it quite correctly should be considered a service-connected problem.

I'm not sure...I never had a problem WIWAC wearing combat boots and marching. Nor did I have a problem running in high school, but put me in a basic training platoon and suddenly I get shin splints so bad I could hardly walk? No one caught it at MEPS. I never once even considered that it could have been a slight problem exacerbated by wearing combat boots 16 hours a day...

I understand Flat Feet May Occur during Service. It can be questionable, but lets say this person only served 1-2 years, in a non infrantry battalion. Highly Doubtful. Again, im not the VA so i cannot make that decision. Shin Splints is very common in Bootcamp, alot of people get them, it very common in AD also. I wasnt trying to be sarcastic, just trying to give examples of the ludacrious things people get SC for.  I believe background checks should be on a person to person basis, i know alot of 17 year olds who messed up, and are still paying for it.

Neither was I. I really never considered that basic might have increased my problem. Should I contact the VA?

[lordmonar]

Neither was I. I really never considered that basic might have increased my problem. Should I contact the VA?

Problem is that VA benifits don't kick in until a certain amount of service.

24 months...but the VA site does say that if you earlied out for some reason to contact them and find out.

[Critical AOA]

I doubt if one month of basic was enough to give you flat feet.  You most likely had them before but was given a pass or it was overlooked.  Army basic isn't that punishing. 

[bosshawk]

Just to muddy the waters: I was commissioned in the Army at age 21 with congenital flat feet.  That means that I was born with flat feet.  Served 30 years and one month and never had an issue:   go figure.

During that time, I had a complete physical at least every 12 months and it was never noted that I had flat feet.

[Devil Doc]

WOW, that just goes to show you how MEPS can pass over alot of things. I really think it has to do with Bodies. If you can Somehow prove that Flat Feet/Shin Splints is the reason you got discharged you may get treatment. As stated before is suppose to be 24 months of AD, but ive seen people serve 2 months in Bootcamp get injured and now there at the VA.

Just so people know, im not disgruntled about people getting SC, by all means thats fine, its just the people you know are playing the system. People tha tplay the system rob the treatment of Veterans who really need the help, not going for Travel Pay, Pain Meds, or trying to live of the Government.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I used to wait tables at a country club and one of the bartenders was in his 40s, with a limp. Got it in USMC Basic on an obstacle course maybe a few weeks in. He probably got zilch from VA.

[CAP4117]

IMHO shame over PTSD is one of the biggest public health obstacles facing the military right now (if not the biggest). I predict that we will continue to see suicide rates climb until this stigma is properly dealt with. How to go about that is a really tough question, though.

A fat chick

Regardless of what the story may be, was that really necessary?

[SarDragon]

Just to muddy the waters: I was commissioned in the Army at age 21 with congenital flat feet.  That means that I was born with flat feet.  Served 30 years and one month and never had an issue:   go figure.

During that time, I had a complete physical at least every 12 months and it was never noted that I had flat feet.

And you didn't happen to mention that they were using pterodactyls for flight trainers when you joined, either. 

I had moderately flat feet when I joined the Navy, and it was noted in my physical. I didn't have any problems until I was just about done with boot camp, and it was due mostly to the too wide shoes I was wearing. I went to sick call about it, and they gave me arch supports. Wore those until I got new shoes, and then didn't have any problems until a couple of years ago. Have plantar fasciitis issues now, and have orthotics for it. Problem gone again.

[ColonelJack]

A fat chick

Regardless of what the story may be, was that really necessary?

Pavel Chekov, Star Trek VI:  "Perhaps you are familiar with Russian epic, 'Cinderella' ... if shoe fits, wear it."   

Jack

[bosshawk]

Dave: you forgot to mention that the pyerodactyls had side by side seating and twin sticks in those days.  Some of them even had afterburners that worked.

[FlyTiger77]

Dave: you forgot to mention that the pyerodactyls had side by side seating and twin sticks in those days.  Some of them even had afterburners that worked.

Hmmmmm...Have you ever seen a picture of a pterodactyl and an OV-1 side-by-side? Is the family resemblance just coincidental? I know they are of about the same vintage. Things that make you say, "Hmmm..."

[bosshawk]

Jack: you are right: about the same vintage.  Of course, I am of that vintage, too, so we go hand in hand.  Remember, the first OV-1 flew in 1959 and we retired them in 1996.  There are still some flying, in private hands.

[PHall]

Dave: you forgot to mention that the pyerodactyls had side by side seating and twin sticks in those days.  Some of them even had afterburners that worked.

Hmmmmm...Have you ever seen a picture of a pterodactyl and an OV-1 side-by-side? Is the family resemblance just coincidental? I know they are of about the same vintage. Things that make you say, "Hmmm..."

No, but a C-141B/C in the AMC Equipment Excellance Grey paint scheme does look like a Pterodactyl! Especially when flying low level right at you!

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

IMHO shame over PTSD is one of the biggest public health obstacles facing the military right now (if not the biggest). I predict that we will continue to see suicide rates climb until this stigma is properly dealt with. How to go about that is a really tough question, though.

I have PTSD from incidents in childhood.

There are people who, over the years, have tried to minimise ("ah, get over it")/shame me for it.  I refuse to allow them to do so.

[Private Investigator]

A fat chick

Regardless of what the story may be, was that really necessary?

+1

That was uncalled for.