What do you guys think of having senior members take a manditory basic Drill and Ceremonies class? The seniors at my squadron (there are many because we are in conjunction with a large senior squadron) are good people, but they lack in military presentation. When we have guests or prospective members come in, the cadets look great during opening ceremonies, reporting, etc. But when the senior members fall into a flight for opening, awards, etc they look pretty unorganized and shoddy. Im not saying that they should have to practice D&C every week like cadets, but shouldnt they have to take a course or two so that they at least look professional and like they know what they're doing? Im sorry if I offend any senior members out there, im not saying you look bad, and I wouldnt be surprised if my squadron is just an isolated case. But if the general consensus is that they need some work, I think they should take a class or two. Whether your a cadet or senior you represent CAP whenever you're in uniform and having proper D&C (and customs & courtesies for that matter!) is an important part of our image. What are your opinions on the subject?
You are absolutely correct seniors as a general rule look like C/Basics on their first day with a uniform on. There are the obvious exceptions of former cadets, former military and such...But.
So to correct this problem I, in my role as Deputy Commander of Seniors have my seniors fall in for opening ceremonies EVERY week, and they get inspected. And once a quarter we do DNC for an hour. I got a lot of flack for it for quite a while but once the cadets started talking about how good the seniors looked, they started to take a little pride in the uniforms etc.
thats good to hear. Im thinking about proposing something like that to my squadron commander.
Walk softly when you do. Ask for a trial period not just implementation, be sure to explain the benefits on a larger scale. Seniors that look professional are looked upon by the community as more professional and therefore will be used in larger capacities by professional organizations. Etc...
I can tell you you will most likely meet some/ a ton of resistance. be persistant and approach it from different angles until you find the hot button that works for our CC
In our case, we're implementing it during OTS. Hopefully the older officers will start to catch on from the newer officers.
An easy way (excuse) to slowly bring up the topic is to hold a squadron formation for the purposes of promoting someone, seniors and/or cadets. When the seniors get into their "senior flight", start with giving them some guidance. Then bring up the need for a little bit of training; call it a "quick and dirty" orientation to D&C so they can be better prepared for situations like promotion ceremonies.
Go from there.
Even go so far as suggesting a drill competition between seniors and cadets. I've done that before and it worked. Seniors won!
One of the things I'd like to do "someday" is write a basic guide to military ceremony and courtesies aimed at senior members.
What does a senior really need to know?
- How to stand at attention
- How to salute
- Reporting procedures
- The "grip and grin" (giving/receiving awards)
- Wearing the uniform properly
That's about it. The senior member program has different goals than the cadet program, and I don't expect seniors to be the drill pad geeks that a lot of cadets are.
Bascially, you want the "don't embarass me" class... here are the n things that you, as a senior member of the USAF auxiliary, are going to be expected to know about the military ceremony stuff.
I don't see the point to a lot of drill for seniors. However, there are a few basic things they should know:
- saluting: who and how
- how to fall into a flight and attention/parade rest/at ease
- How to leave the flight to come "front and center." Getting there, saluting, taking the award, saluting, getting back
I wouldn't get too much into marching - just some instruction on walking in uniform and saluting
I disagree the old adage that "knowledge is power" is very true in this case. It is better for the seniors to know too much than too little. It is not difficult to learn these maneuvers, and then you can do anything you want with your newly formed corp of senior drillers
I'm working on a D&C course for the e-Learning (http://www.pawingcap.com/e-learning/) site if anyone wants to help with that. My basis for it is the AF D&C DVDs that I have from AETC.
My thought was having it for Senior Members mostly since cadets already have it as part of their program.
It seems that everyone has generally the same idea - "Teach them what they need to know, but dont make them into drill junkies". It seems like a sound idea. Like I said earlier, Im just aiming for them to be presentable to the public and to be able to set a good example for cadets. The "dont embarass me" point of view is basically what im aiming for
We figure that the Curry level of performance was acceptable....and lets us recycle the training materials and standards from the cadet side of the house.
Basic D&C knowledge would be good for senior members who either work with cadets or find themselves in-line for a command position. However, there are plenty of senior members who contribute in other ways, such as just being a pilot, or the admin officer, etc. who would never use D&C. Even in a formation, the most that many of these volunteers would need to be asked to do would be to stand at attention.
D&C is already an optional workshop of TLC and appearance and basics of customs & courtesies are touched upon in Level I. Could it beefed up? Sure; as could most all of Level I material.
Quote from: ♠SARKID♠ on August 28, 2007, 03:53:32 PM
What do you guys think of having senior members take a manditory basic Drill and Ceremonies class? The seniors at my squadron (there are many because we are in conjunction with a large senior squadron) are good people, but they lack in military presentation.
. . .
Mandatory D&C would cause me to stop coming to meetings. I'd probably quit CAP. I am here to search for lost airplanes, disaster relief, counter drug and homeland security. There is enough nonsense in those activities alone without having to be told how to walk in a straight line.
--Nomex
Nomex, I think he may be referring to the "C" more than the "D".
If a cadet renders a salute, you should know how to respond to that properly. If you walk into a classroom and someone calls it to Attention, you should know why and what to do next. If you receive an award at a banquet, it's helpful not to trip over one's own feet.
I (think) those are the kinds of situations we're trying to prepare people for... things that all senior members probably have to face at some point.
Quote from: Nomex Maximus on August 28, 2007, 05:55:29 PM
Quote from: ♠SARKID♠ on August 28, 2007, 03:53:32 PM
What do you guys think of having senior members take a manditory basic Drill and Ceremonies class? The seniors at my squadron (there are many because we are in conjunction with a large senior squadron) are good people, but they lack in military presentation.
. . .
Mandatory D&C would cause me to stop coming to meetings. I'd probably quit CAP. I am here to search for lost airplanes, disaster relief, counter drug and homeland security. There is enough nonsense in those activities alone without having to be told how to walk in a straight line.
--Nomex
So join a unit without cadets and represent yourself and your unit however you want.
Regardless of how nonsensical you think these things are it IS, no matter what excuses you offer, important to be as professional if not more so than the cadets that look up to us.
Sarkid- This is exactly the type of resistance I was trying to describe... Just push on!
I would like to see a basic performance of drill be a requirement for 2Lt. It takes me 2-3 meetings to get a basic cadet up to speed to pass the Curry. Makes sense.
I agree with Stonewalls approach. Start off with formations then ease into it.
I think its a great idea in theory. But in my squadron most of the senior members are over 70 yeras old. They will quickly tell you that you cant "mandate" anything in Civil Air Patrol. I think its a crappy attitude to have but they look at me a youn senior member.
My seniors have never fell into formation. For them, they just come at the scheduled time and go into their room and meet. There are no formations. Half of them dont wear uniforms. I try to set the example for the few cadets I have though
MFD1506 - He asked for opinions and I gave him mine. If there is only one correct opinion, then there is not much point is ASKING for opinions.
How about making it mandatory for ES seniors to come to actual missions? That'd be a great improvement...
I don't disagree with your opinion I disagree with the way you presented it.
Nothing gets to me quicker than people saying "I'm here to do what I want and you can't tell me otherwise"
And you saying "if you tell me what to do I'll just leave" is exactly the attitude prevents foreward motion, and change in this organization. If you want any changes, ES included, there is no room for stubbornness.
Quote from: mfd1506 on August 28, 2007, 07:33:05 PM
I don't disagree with your opinion I disagree with the way you presented it.
Nothing gets to me quicker than people saying "I'm here to do what I want and you can't tell me otherwise"
And you saying "if you tell me what to do I'll just leave" is exactly the attitude prevents foreward motion, and change in this organization. If you want any changes, ES included, there is no room for stubbornness.
Oh, oh, ouch! I just spent a weekend dealing with lots of people (pilots) who didn't want to come to an actual missing person mission because they had "other things to do". Talk about stubborness. I am here for emergency service, not for pictures, or news media, or playing soldier, or for parades or airshow parking lot details. I learned that the hard way this weekend. Sorry but on Saturday I was all gung ho for CAP. Now I am seriously disillusioned.
Mandatory D&C class for seniors. No. Send me the CISM guy instead.
Quote from: Nomex Maximus on August 28, 2007, 07:51:30 PM
Oh, oh, ouch! I just spent a weekend dealing with lots of people (pilots) who didn't want to come to an actual missing person mission because they had "other things to do". Talk about stubborness. I am here for emergency service, not for pictures, or news media, or playing soldier, or for parades or airshow parking lot details. I learned that the hard way this weekend. Sorry but on Saturday I was all gung ho for CAP. Now I am seriously disillusioned.
Mandatory D&C class for seniors. No. Send me the CISM guy instead.
CISM? Good Grief man, it can't be that bad!
Why is it that I have board certified doctors who can't take a temperature, much less diagnose, any Joe off the street with a couple of weekends of training can perform CAP approved therapy without a license?
Quote from: flyguy06 on August 28, 2007, 06:42:30 PM
I think its a great idea in theory. But in my squadron most of the senior members are over 70 yeras old. They will quickly tell you that you cant "mandate" anything in Civil Air Patrol. I think its a crappy attitude to have but they look at me a youn senior member.
My seniors have never fell into formation. For them, they just come at the scheduled time and go into their room and meet. There are no formations. Half of them dont wear uniforms. I try to set the example for the few cadets I have though
Time for a shake up. If we loose say 5 70+ year old Lt Col's, so be it. Uniform mandatory at each meeting. Formation and C&C as well. I am so sick of hearing, "well I don't work around the Cadets, so I don't have to do that stuff".
Quote from: mikeylikey on August 28, 2007, 08:29:19 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on August 28, 2007, 06:42:30 PM
I think its a great idea in theory. But in my squadron most of the senior members are over 70 yeras old. They will quickly tell you that you cant "mandate" anything in Civil Air Patrol. I think its a crappy attitude to have but they look at me a youn senior member.
My seniors have never fell into formation. For them, they just come at the scheduled time and go into their room and meet. There are no formations. Half of them dont wear uniforms. I try to set the example for the few cadets I have though
Time for a shake up. If we loose say 5 70+ year old Lt Col's, so be it. Uniform mandatory at each meeting. Formation and C&C as well. I am so sick of hearing, "well I don't work around the Cadets, so I don't have to do that stuff".
It all comes back to "what's the mission?"
We tell people we are an emergency services org, then saddle them with the additional duty of "assistant scoutmaster," expect them to learn skills that have nothing to do with ES (saluting, drill, military uniform wear), and give them grief when they balk.
We are an org with two missions (CP and ES) with not a lot of overlap between the missions (though perhaps overlap between the personnel). How do you reconcile that?
Quote from: ddelaney103 on August 28, 2007, 08:49:55 PM
We are an org with two missions (CP and ES) with not a lot of overlap between the missions (though perhaps overlap between the personnel). How do you reconcile that?
Actually its three, I'm sure the AE folks are apoplectic.
The way we reconcile this is by insuring that all new members understand the >PROGRAM< and not just one cherry-picked component that a given commender or unit thinks is important. This will require a culture change and some attrition.
When can we start?
How many people signed up for CAP to just one thing? Am I a rarity? I enjoy all aspects of CAP, to include AE. Still to this day, I can [darn] near identify almost all aircraft and even know what the camber of the wing is for. With all that, I still don't consider myself a huge fan of AE, but I do it because it's a part of the program. I got the Yeager award as part of a group effort in a ES-heavy squadron full of pilots and cadets alike. Like it or not, the commander said "if you want to fly, you'll learn the history of flying" (via the Yeager program).
I still don't know why, to this date, why someone who is hell bent on search and rescue would join CAP. Why not join the local SAR group, the folks that don't require you to wear a uniform, hold rank, perform customs and courtesies and don't have little teenagers running around expecting you to lead by example.
Even pilots can contribute to the cadet program and AE side of the house. By orientation flights and classes on aviation. Doesn't mean they have to march or drive the cadets to encampment. But whether you like or not, CAP has a 3-fold mission and we are not a "SAR Organization", an "ROTC" program or "Club for future Astronauts".
Stop your crying about having to do your small part for the total program. It doesn't take much effort and it won't kill you.
The culture of CAP is based around the Military. The basis of the military is drill, customs and courtesies. Why would they spend 2 weeks doing nothing but those things in every branches basic training curriculum? In fact CAP, up until the late 1950's required its new Senior Members to be master of those areas. We lost that somewhere. I would have to say somewhere between 1970 and 1985.
You are in the Auxiliary of the United States Air Force. It wouldn't kill you to get with the program.
Or, join the Coast Guard Auxiliary. They don't march and don't have cadets.
Quote from: flyguy06 on August 28, 2007, 06:42:30 PM
I think its a great idea in theory. But in my squadron most of the senior members are over 70 yeras old. They will quickly tell you that you cant "mandate" anything in Civil Air Patrol. I think its a crappy attitude to have but they look at me a youn senior member.
My seniors have never fell into formation. For them, they just come at the scheduled time and go into their room and meet. There are no formations. Half of them dont wear uniforms. I try to set the example for the few cadets I have though
I think if you go to the cap.gov website and download the recruiting brochure and read it you will find that it makes a point of answering the question, "Do I have to wear a uniform?" The answer as I recal is something along the lines of "No, not really, not if you don't want to." The whole point of that is that some of us really think all of this military stuff is a little --silly--- and we'd sort of like to not have to do that.
I just got back from a mission. Lots and lots of green flightsuits and BDUs and not a single salute was exchanged between any officers. Sort of makes me feel silly for worrying about it in previous postings here.
Quote from: Nomex Maximus on August 28, 2007, 10:14:19 PM
Sort of makes me feel silly for worrying about it in previous postings here.
It's kind of like the whole AUX ON/AUX OFF, which I still don't know what it means, but you're right, it's not a big deal. The Customs and Courtesies are there and should be adhered to, but in certain circumstances, they go by the wayside as they should.
CAP ES Missions, real and realistic practice, are our "combat" as compared to the Real Military™. Whereas while deployed, you'll see a major decrease in customs and courtesies, you will most likely see the same thing at a mission base and in the field. On the flight line, salutes just aren't rendered.
Mission Does NOT equal CAP...
There is a world outside of ES regardless of how blind people choose to be.
So for the purpose of this discussion lets assume that Cadet Programs and ES are not one and the same
I tell folks right upfront that anyone joining CAP for one reason is going to leave disillusioned and for that reason we would prefer for them not to join.
Same here on the aircraft ID....my big thing as cadet AE officer was flashcards. To this day, I am still amazed at the number of pilots who can't tell a P-51 from a PBY.
Quote from: Stonewall on August 28, 2007, 09:05:19 PM
How many people signed up for CAP to just one thing? Am I a rarity? I enjoy all aspects of CAP, to include AE. Still to this day, I can [darn] near identify almost all aircraft and even know what the camber of the wing is for. With all that, I still don't consider myself a huge fan of AE, but I do it because it's a part of the program. I got the Yeager award as part of a group effort in a ES-heavy squadron full of pilots and cadets alike. Like it or not, the commander said "if you want to fly, you'll learn the history of flying" (via the Yeager program).
First, I agree that seniors need a basic amount of D & C training, and occasional practice to keep skills up. To the lists already offered I would add opening/closing ranks for an inspection, and how to conduct oneself during a personnel inspection.
With regard to those who wish to join CAP for ES only, I suggest that a new membership category be developed, the "ES member", which would entail the following:
1) since grade is meaningless, all in this category would remain SM without grade permanently
2) uniform would consist of flight suit or BDUs
3) in addition to required insignia, the only other ornamentation would be the BASIC badge for their specialty (pilot/observer/GTM OR GTL, etc)...again, since awards are meaningless, who care is one is a senior observer, command pilot, or whatever?
4) dues paid would be standard amount for seniors in their wing
5) ES members would not be permitted to attend anything (including unit meetings) other than ES training, exercises, and actual missions
In other words, if someone wants to be "just a pilot/GTM etc", we should welcome their contributions....but, at the same time, they should keep well out of the way while the rest of us try to conduct the program as a whole
Quote from: ZigZag911 on August 29, 2007, 01:57:45 AM
First, I agree that seniors need a basic amount of D & C training, and occasional practice to keep skills up. To the lists already offered I would add opening/closing ranks for an inspection, and how to conduct oneself during a personnel inspection.
With regard to those who wish to join CAP for ES only, I suggest that a new membership category be developed, the "ES member", which would entail the following:
1) since grade is meaningless, all in this category would remain SM without grade permanently
2) uniform would consist of flight suit or BDUs
3) in addition to required insignia, the only other ornamentation would be the BASIC badge for their specialty (pilot/observer/GTM OR GTL, etc)...again, since awards are meaningless, who care is one is a senior observer, command pilot, or whatever?
4) dues paid would be standard amount for seniors in their wing
5) ES members would not be permitted to attend anything (including unit meetings) other than ES training, exercises, and actual missions
In other words, if someone wants to be "just a pilot/GTM etc", we should welcome their contributions....but, at the same time, they should keep well out of the way while the rest of us try to conduct the program as a whole
This is one of the best set of ideas I have ever seen on this board. I would add just one thing more to it: Only ES members can pilot or fly in the airplanes.
Nomex: ES members would be choosing to remain uninvolved with CP & AE.
It does not follow, logically, that those who do choose such involvement can't also be active in ES.
Or, to put it another way, some of us enjoy multi-tasking and do it pretty well!
Your amendment is categorically rejected.
Quote from: Nomex Maximus on August 28, 2007, 05:55:29 PM
Quote from: ♠SARKID♠ on August 28, 2007, 03:53:32 PM
What do you guys think of having senior members take a manditory basic Drill and Ceremonies class? The seniors at my squadron (there are many because we are in conjunction with a large senior squadron) are good people, but they lack in military presentation.
. . .
Mandatory D&C would cause me to stop coming to meetings. I'd probably quit CAP. I am here to search for lost airplanes, disaster relief, counter drug and homeland security. There is enough nonsense in those activities alone without having to be told how to walk in a straight line.
--Nomex
Thats a terrible attitude. You're in a paramilitary organization.
Quote from: Nomex Maximus on August 29, 2007, 02:22:39 AM
Quote from: ZigZag911 on August 29, 2007, 01:57:45 AM
First, I agree that seniors need a basic amount of D & C training, and occasional practice to keep skills up. To the lists already offered I would add opening/closing ranks for an inspection, and how to conduct oneself during a personnel inspection.
With regard to those who wish to join CAP for ES only, I suggest that a new membership category be developed, the "ES member", which would entail the following:
1) since grade is meaningless, all in this category would remain SM without grade permanently
2) uniform would consist of flight suit or BDUs
3) in addition to required insignia, the only other ornamentation would be the BASIC badge for their specialty (pilot/observer/GTM OR GTL, etc)...again, since awards are meaningless, who care is one is a senior observer, command pilot, or whatever?
4) dues paid would be standard amount for seniors in their wing
5) ES members would not be permitted to attend anything (including unit meetings) other than ES training, exercises, and actual missions
In other words, if someone wants to be "just a pilot/GTM etc", we should welcome their contributions....but, at the same time, they should keep well out of the way while the rest of us try to conduct the program as a whole
This is one of the best set of ideas I have ever seen on this board. I would add just one thing more to it: Only ES members can pilot or fly in the airplanes.
The planes also exist for the benefit of the cadet program. We fly a lot more hours in orientation flights than SAR missions. Plus we have administrative missions that the real officers need to do, and we use the planes for those command and control missions.
All -
I yanketh thy chain.
Wait a minute. What about those of us who dual track in Cadet Programs and Emergency Services??? By the way, Cadet Programs is much more challenging than CAP ES. CAP ES for me is pretty easy stuff.
On a serious note, I am very pleased to see that other members here are standing shoulder to shoulder supporting the cadet program. I am very happy to see people supporting those "old fashioned" concepts of honor, repsect and integrity.
By the way, some of the best SAR people I've ever seen are CAP cadets. Off the top of my head, I can think of a 1/2 dozen cadets that I would want looking for me. They've gone to the Wing and National schools, they've gone through the First Aid, CPR, CERT, and EMT courses on their dime, they run and workout e-v-e-r-y day, they've taken the online FEMA courses (not just ICS 100, 200, 700 and 900) and they research current trends in SAR. They can explain in detail the advantages of purple nitrile over latex gloves. They can actually carry a victim in a stokes litter without becoming a casaulty themselves. They soloed at age 16. I know very well the restrictions on cadets and so do they; they study and train anyway just in case they get the opportunity to prove their worth. They go to school full time and have jobs. For that, I am d**n proud of their commitment to CAP and their community.
I can only hope that our future Senior Members will show that level of dedication.
Quote from: mikeylikey on August 28, 2007, 08:29:19 PM
Time for a shake up. If we loose say 5 70+ year old Lt Col's, so be it.
You're going to ban doughnuts? ???
OFF WITH HIS HEAD :P
In all due seriousness, a positive peer pressure helps. Our squadron commander has stopped using the term "meeting." They are now "commander's call" Result - increased participation and uniform wear even if it's a golf shirt combination. Two simple words have changed the culture.
Interesting... May have to try that out for a spin once I rule the world, or maybe just IL240
Quote from: mikeylikey on August 28, 2007, 08:29:19 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on August 28, 2007, 06:42:30 PM
I think its a great idea in theory. But in my squadron most of the senior members are over 70 yeras old. They will quickly tell you that you cant "mandate" anything in Civil Air Patrol. I think its a crappy attitude to have but they look at me a youn senior member.
My seniors have never fell into formation. For them, they just come at the scheduled time and go into their room and meet. There are no formations. Half of them dont wear uniforms. I try to set the example for the few cadets I have though
Time for a shake up. If we loose say 5 70+ year old Lt Col's, so be it. Uniform mandatory at each meeting. Formation and C&C as well. I am so sick of hearing, "well I don't work around the Cadets, so I don't have to do that stuff".
I agree with that, but actually I found out during the National Conference that waring uniforms at meetings are not mandatory UNLESS you work around cadets.
As far as my squadron, if we got rid of all the seniors that didnt want to wear a uniform I'd be the only one in the squadron
[/quote]
Time for a shake up. If we loose say 5 70+ year old Lt Col's, so be it. Uniform mandatory at each meeting. Formation and C&C as well. I am so sick of hearing, "well I don't work around the Cadets, so I don't have to do that stuff".
[/quote]
It all comes back to "what's the mission?"
We tell people we are an emergency services org, then saddle them with the additional duty of "assistant scoutmaster," expect them to learn skills that have nothing to do with ES (saluting, drill, military uniform wear), and give them grief when they balk.
We are an org with two missions (CP and ES) with not a lot of overlap between the missions (though perhaps overlap between the personnel). How do you reconcile that?
[/quote]
Most of my members arent in CAP for ES. We want to conduct a positive youth organization in our community. I am one of two ES qualified people in our unit. And I am not active in ES
Quote
As far as my squadron, if we got rid of all the seniors that didn't want to wear a uniform I'd be the only one in the squadron
BTDT- And now there is a sign on the squadron bulletin board reading
"Duc, Sequere vel Abi" (Thanks to the IAWG/CC)
Its not that folks are joing CAP for the wrong reasons. Its just that many people see CAP as a voluteer organization. Something they do in their spare time. They have jobs, families and other responsibilities. We all dont own our own businesses or are in positions where we cantake time off at our leisure. Many of us work 9 to5 and have to feed our families so extra curricular activities like CAP are not as important as say feeding our children. So those people do CAP when they can.
Many of my members want to work with youths. they want to be positive role models. They dont have the time to go through the intense training required to be SAR or ES qualified. that stuff takes a lot of time out of weekends and weeknights. People that work Mon-Fri want to spend weekends with their families. Some people work on weekends. I am not able to go to SAREX's because they ALWAYS seem to fall on my National Guard drill weekend.
So I dont think its fair to say that members that choose not to be active in ES are somehow not participatin gin the program. They do what they can and since we dont get paid for it we should be grateful for the help, not matter how smal or large it is.
Quote from: mfd1506 on August 29, 2007, 05:11:16 AM
Quote
As far as my squadron, if we got rid of all the seniors that didn't want to wear a uniform I'd be the only one in the squadron
BTDT- And now there is a sign on the squadron bulletin board reading
"Duc, Sequere vel Abi" (Thanks to the IAWG/CC)
I have no idea what that means
Where did that little gem come from???
I distinctly remember someone in the recent past saying that ES is not synonymous with CP.
There are those that do ES, CP, AE as a single unit or any combo there of. The fact that we are trying to distinguish is that if you choose to be anywhere in eye shot of cadets at any point you have NO option of wearing a uniform, and doing so properly. There is also no option of looking sloppy, and unprofessional when doing things like rendering a salute, or marching to receive an award.
Quote from: flyguy06 on August 29, 2007, 05:19:53 AM
Quote from: mfd1506 on August 29, 2007, 05:11:16 AM
"Duc, Sequere vel Abi" (Thanks to the IAWG/CC)
I have no idea what that means
Google (or Altavista in my case) is your friend
Army FM 3-21.5 describes the purpose of D&C as:"It enables leaders to move an individual or a unit from one place to another in an orderly manner. It also aids in disciplinary training by instilling habits of precision and response to a leaders orders."
In an organization that WILL NEVER BE SOLELY AN ES ORGANIZATION, discipline is needed. Even in an "ES" squadron, staff positions are a requirement, IE: ESO is not an ES specialty, it's a job.
A big problem with volunteer organizations is that people tend to pick and choose not only how much they participate (which is their right) but also what standards they will adhere to. Weak leaders will allow their members to do whatever they want and abstain from whatever they wish.
If all you came to do is fly a plane, go buy a plane. This ain't no flyin' club, this is the Civil Air Patrol. We are founded in tradition and structure that predates all of us, we should try to live up to the legacy that was handed down to us by the members of the original Coastal Patrol Squadrons, not make up the rules as they suit us like some Lindsay Lohan piece of spoiled Hollywood trash.
D&C is part of a well oiled unit. I'm sure no one is saying we all have to function like the 3rd ID Old Guard, just get your head out of your but and learn how to function in a formal military environment.
For anyone to say that they would quit if they had to do D&C is childish, and becomes a testament to your level of commitment. It also shows that you don't play well with others.
Quote from: flyguy06 on August 29, 2007, 05:18:58 AMMany of my members want to work with youths. they want to be positive role models.
You just hit the number one reason to wear a sharp uniform or learn how to drill properly enough to avoid embarassment in front of the cadets.
One of the best comments I heard on the subject was from out Cadet Programs officer. He is himself a former cadet, did a hitch with the Marines, got out and did a hitch with the Army including a combat tour in the First Guf War, then came back and commanded a cadet squadron:
"Look and act sharp all the time. The cadets do. If you don't, trust me, they will not say anything to your face, but thereafter you will be the squadron joke. That's just a fact of teenage life."
Here is the
Introduction in my "Orientation for Senior Members". The entire manual was uploaded for your reading pleasure in another thread.
This pretty much describes I how I felt about the Senior Program 6 years ago when I wrote it and how I feel today. Nothing has changed.
Quote
Congratulations on becoming a Senior Member at Fairfax Composite Squadron!
Being a senior member is even more demanding than being a cadet. Being a senior member requires an even higher standard of dedication, participation, discipline, obedience, leadership and attention to detail. Whether you know it or not, you are a leader, mentor, and you set the example for young men and women to follow. What you do and how you act, will directly affect how cadets see senior members and adults as a whole.
This handbook is designed to provide concise information about being a senior member and provide you the information necessary to instruct and conduct yourself in the presence of cadets. It is designed to complement, rather than replace, the Civil Air Patrol manuals that are the heart of the Senior Program. Inside, you will find detailed guidelines covering everything from the format of the weekly meetings to military customs and courtesies to progressing in the senior program.
Take the time to study this handbook carefully. It will prove to be a great help throughout your time as a Senior Member in Fairfax Composite Squadron.
Here is the
Closing.
Quote
How will you be rewarded?
The CAP is the official auxiliary of the US Air Force, but it is a volunteer force in every sense of the word. There is no pay for our work. The reward comes in different ways to different people, and is a factor of what you are willing to give to the program. Rank is awarded for completing the steps of the program. Ribbons are awarded for certain activities and accomplishments. Badges and patches can also be earned for certain specialties. Intangible benefits, such as the satisfaction of serving your community and your country, are a large part of the program as well. Also, some portions of the training program can result in college-equivalent hours at the undergraduate or graduate levels, as well as getting world-class training useful in all walks of life.
It is my mission to offer a fair and safe environment for anyone who desires challenge, adversity, and the common goal of helping their community through the cadet program and emergency services. Although many rewards aren't tangible, they are often appreciated long after the cadets we mentor graduate from high school and move on to college, the military, and life. I can personally attest to this.
Once again, welcome to senior membership in the Fairfax Composite Squadron of the National Capital Wing, Civil Air Patrol. I may be contacted at (703) 742-XXXX or pkbowden@xxxxxxx.net.
KIRT BOWDEN, Lt Col, CAP
Commander
I'll go ahead and throw in, from page 2, "Setting the Example".
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Setting the Example
No matter what your position, rank, or how long you've been in CAP, as an adult member of Civil Air Patrol, you are setting an example for young people to follow. Whether you intended to be a mentor or not, you now hold that title. Cadets will automatically look up to you for answers and guidance. They will expect you to know these answers simply because you are a senior.
Some rules to live by as a senior at Fairfax
• No smoking in the presence of cadets.
• No consuming alcohol or being intoxicated in the presence of cadets.
• No profanity in the presence of cadets.
• If not in uniform, seniors should wear appropriate clothing not promoting drugs, alcohol,
smoking, or profanity and should be in good taste in general.
• When you think cadets are not looking or paying attention, they are.
• Always use proper military customs and courtesies. If saluted, return the salute. Address
cadets by their rank (or as "cadet") and last name.
• In the presence of cadets, address fellow seniors by their rank and last name. Respect
and customs and courtesies are contagious.
• Never let cadets see or hear seniors argue, or otherwise acting unprofessional.
• If you wear CAP's military style uniform, you must meet weight and grooming standards.
• Treat cadets as young adults, not as children. Let them make some mistakes, but do not let
them get hurt.
• You are encouraged to interact with cadets. Curious? Ask them what they're doing, but try
not to interfere if they are engrossed in a class or project.
• Enjoy our program!
^^ oooo more good things from UK
Quote from: Sgt. Savage on August 29, 2007, 12:35:24 PM
Army FM 3-21.5 describes the purpose of D&C as:"It enables leaders to move an individual or a unit from one place to another in an orderly manner. It also aids in disciplinary training by instilling habits of precision and response to a leaders orders."
In an organization that WILL NEVER BE SOLELY AN ES ORGANIZATION, discipline is needed. Even in an "ES" squadron, staff positions are a requirement, IE: ESO is not an ES specialty, it's a job.
A big problem with volunteer organizations is that people tend to pick and choose not only how much they participate (which is their right) but also what standards they will adhere to. Weak leaders will allow their members to do whatever they want and abstain from whatever they wish.
If all you came to do is fly a plane, go buy a plane. This ain't no flyin' club, this is the Civil Air Patrol. We are founded in tradition and structure that predates all of us, we should try to live up to the legacy that was handed down to us by the members of the original Coastal Patrol Squadrons, not make up the rules as they suit us like some Lindsay Lohan piece of spoiled Hollywood trash.
D&C is part of a well oiled unit. I'm sure no one is saying we all have to function like the 3rd ID Old Guard, just get your head out of your but and learn how to function in a formal military environment.
For anyone to say that they would quit if they had to do D&C is childish, and becomes a testament to your level of commitment. It also shows that you don't play well with others.
I agree with you. I have told my commander on numerous occasions that we need to 2b members that treat CAP like a flying club, but he wont listen. He doesnt want to understand. heck, his commitment level isnt the greatest. The Wing Commander wont do anything because he wants the numbers, so I dont know what direction to go.
Quote from: flyguy06 on August 29, 2007, 07:51:34 PM
I agree with you. I have told my commander on numerous occasions that we need to 2b members that treat CAP like a flying club, but he wont listen. He doesnt want to understand. heck, his commitment level isnt the greatest. The Wing Commander wont do anything because he wants the numbers, so I dont know what direction to go.
I suggest you give it up.
I've been in the Commander's chair, and as long as your unit's worth to CAP and the Wing is based on number of members, and your ability to keep an aircraft is based on flying hours, he will not make any changes that will monkey with either.
Dumping inactive members from CAP is slitting the throat of your Wing's budget. All that is driven at NHQ and unless they change it you're stuck.
My boss was willing to give me cover for dumping my deadwood to the Wing's "ghost sqdn." We heard from one person that wanted to be moved back and he faded again after a few months. It cleaned up our rolls w/o a financial hit. That's probably the best you can hope for here.
There is also a target for number of hours of flying per year for your aircraft. You don't want to be the one with the lowest hours on the aircraft, because that's the one they'll hit when Region or Wing does the "air assets shuffle." Never turning down a mission is another good thing, but hours is the make or break.
How do you initiate a transfer from the losing unit? I thought all transfers had to be initiated from the gaining unit.
Quote from: floridacyclist on August 29, 2007, 09:38:34 PM
How do you initiate a transfer from the losing unit? I thought all transfers had to be initiated from the gaining unit.
You are correct
Quote from: JC004 on August 29, 2007, 09:55:41 PM
Quote from: floridacyclist on August 29, 2007, 09:38:34 PM
How do you initiate a transfer from the losing unit? I thought all transfers had to be initiated from the gaining unit.
You are correct
Not quite, that is the way you are
supposed to do it. All you have to do is initiate a 2A, and under the transfer action, put current then unit you want to go to. It would be advisable to talk to the unit commander that you would like to join first. If I were a unit commander and saw a transfer that I didn't know about, I'd deny it.
If my memory is correct, there is no "unit CC" for a reserve squadron, at least in the wing I was in, so it would have to be done by the losing commander.
To get out of the reserve Squadron, you just go to the new unit and say I'd like to come back and new 2A is filled out.
That is the way it is done, the gaining commander initiates the transfer.
For the -00 squadrons, whoever is assigned at "wing" to oversee those transfers initiates them from a list provided by the losing commander.
As a squadron commander, you would (or whoever it's delegated to) initiate the transfer of another member. Members can not just 'decide' that they are part of a new unit without approval from the gaining commander.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on August 29, 2007, 10:25:16 PM
That is the way it is done, the gaining commander initiates the transfer.
For the -00 squadrons, whoever is assigned at "wing" to oversee those transfers initiates them from a list provided by the losing commander.
As a squadron commander, you would (or whoever it's delegated to) initiate the transfer of another member. Members can not just 'decide' that they are part of a new unit without approval from the gaining commander.
Like I said, that it the way it
should be done.
In several of the cases that I know of in the 000 unit was that my Unit CC initiated the transfers himself. Not Wing, he admitted to doing it himself. He had permission to do so, but still his call.
I can initiate anything I desire. It does NOT mean that it will be approved. For Example: I fill out a 2A for a transfer from SWR-OK-115 to MER-WV-049, and send it in. All I need is to have my CC sign it. Now if Col. Dalton sees that at WV-049, and didn't know who I was, or that I was coming, he can still deny it. That does not mean that he or his admin officer has to initiate it.
And this is where I make a call of "off-topic" ;D
Quote from: mikeylikey on August 28, 2007, 08:29:19 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on August 28, 2007, 06:42:30 PM
I think its a great idea in theory. But in my squadron most of the senior members are over 70 yeras old. They will quickly tell you that you cant "mandate" anything in Civil Air Patrol. I think its a crappy attitude to have but they look at me a youn senior member.
My seniors have never fell into formation. For them, they just come at the scheduled time and go into their room and meet. There are no formations. Half of them dont wear uniforms. I try to set the example for the few cadets I have though
Time for a shake up. If we loose say 5 70+ year old Lt Col's, so be it. Uniform mandatory at each meeting. Formation and C&C as well. I am so sick of hearing, "well I don't work around the Cadets, so I don't have to do that stuff".
Yeah, that's a great idea. Let's tell our two most senior members, the one's who have each given over 50 years of service, one who is an incident commander, let's tell them thatr they need to start doing D&C and wear full uniform to each meeting or else we will drum them out as bad examples to the cadets. Yeah that will teach soemthing good to the cadets... NOT.
Quote from: Nomex Maximus on August 30, 2007, 01:35:45 AM
Yeah, that's a great idea. Let's tell our two most senior members, the one's who have each given over 50 years of service, one who is an incident commander, let's tell them thatr they need to start doing D&C and wear full uniform to each meeting or else we will drum them out as bad examples to the cadets. Yeah that will teach soemthing good to the cadets... NOT.
I will agree that we do have some members with a great deal of experience in CAP. But I have noticed that some of the ones that have a lot of history are resistant to doing anything other than what they feel like doing. And that includes some serious issues on the safety side. If someone doesn't wear a uniform properly, that reflects badly on the organization. If someone doesn't follow safety procedures, it could cost CAP money (at best) or a life (the worst). Should they get a pass because they have such history?
I'm starting to think that D&C as mandatory for seniors is a no-go concept. As a voluntary idea, I would be all for it. I imagine that the ones that do want to do it are probably the ones that would wear the more "formal" uniforms(blues, white/greys, or blue/white).
Some of the other "casual" members probably wouldn't. And before anyone protests, I'm not saying that people that wear golf shirts won't be interested. Many of them are actually experts at D&C.
I've got 50 years in CAP and understand D&C. But I really see no need for seniors to fall into a formation which is mainly for cadets to start with. You'll find that senior members that formally were cadets understand D&C, but they also know that senior members without a cadet or military background have no use for D&C or C&C for that matter. Have five seniors walk down a street and meet a cadet and the cadet salutes, and only two seniors return the salute correctly and you've discovered which were former cadets or military. Rather than D&C I'd much rather see seniors learn C&C, it's more applicable to the senior program.
This is kind of getting off topic and its partially my fault. So, I will start another thread, because I am enjoying you alls opinions and would like more
At the risk of getting flamed for my opinion on this topic, I'm going to go ahead and present it any way. First off though, I'm going to say that I am the Deputy Commander for Cadets so I do come to pretty much every meeting in either BDU's or the blue service dress depending upon what the uniform of the day is for the cadets for that meeting. I wear the uniform proudly, and challenge my cadets to catch me with my uniform out of regulation in any way. I also stand formation and know D&C. However, I think to require or even expect the other senior members to do that is pretty unrealistic. I know many very competent seniors who never wear an AF style uniform but represent CAP in a very professional manner. Requiring them to stand formation and drill would not increase their ability or professionalism in the least. I did join the organization for the military aspects as well as the flying and SAR opportunities, but most of them either don't care about that, or have BTDT.
It seems to me that these kinds of suggestions are usually brought up by either current "real" military, guard or reserve people, former military people that want to relive those days, or military want-to-be's. If you have a group of like minded senior members in your unit that wish to wear a uniform, form up and drill, by all means, go to it. But having the attitude that everybody else ought to do it or leave is going a bit too far. Some of these guy's have given 20 years to CAP and are still working 20 or thirty hours a week doing all the admin crap that keeps the organization going but nobody else wants to do. Tell them to do it or leave, and you'll be cutting your own throat. After all, when they joined, it was understood that they didn't have to wear a uniform and drill.
Quote from: ELTHunter on August 30, 2007, 02:17:59 AM
At the risk of getting flamed for my opinion on this topic, I'm going to go ahead and present it any way. First off though, I'm going to say that I am the Deputy Commander for Cadets so I do come to pretty much every meeting in either BDU's or the blue service dress depending upon what the uniform of the day is for the cadets for that meeting. I wear the uniform proudly, and challenge my cadets to catch me with my uniform out of regulation in any way. I also stand formation and know D&C. However, I think to require or even expect the other senior members to do that is pretty unrealistic. I know many very competent seniors who never wear an AF style uniform but represent CAP in a very professional manner. Requiring them to stand formation and drill would not increase their ability or professionalism in the least. I did join the organization for the military aspects as well as the flying and SAR opportunities, but most of them either don't care about that, or have BTDT.
It seems to me that these kinds of suggestions are usually brought up by either current "real" military, guard or reserve people, former military people that want to relive those days, or military want-to-be's. If you have a group of like minded senior members in your unit that wish to wear a uniform, form up and drill, by all means, go to it. But having the attitude that everybody else ought to do it or leave is going a bit too far. Some of these guy's have given 20 years to CAP and are still working 20 or thirty hours a week doing all the admin crap that keeps the organization going but nobody else wants to do. Tell them to do it or leave, and you'll be cutting your own throat. After all, when they joined, it was understood that they didn't have to wear a uniform and drill.
I agree with that.
Hear, hear, ELTHunter.
Quote
Yeah, that's a great idea. Let's tell our two most senior members, the one's who have each given over 50 years of service, one who is an incident commander, let's tell them thatr they need to start doing D&C and wear full uniform to each meeting or else we will drum them out as bad examples to the cadets. Yeah that will teach soemthing good to the cadets... NOT.
Dont forget, when I started this thread, I made it as an argument for presentation to the
public not the cadets. Though it would be a good example for cadets, Im arguing our view in the public eye: to visitors and guests at squadron meetings who will inevitably come in contact with these seniors and expect them to act as they should.
I still think every senior needs to know the basics.
Make it part of Level 1, Level 2, UCC. Let it come into effect by attrition....don't run any of the old timers out who resist, but get the newer folks on board.
Give it enough time, and it will once again become part of the 'CAP culture'.
OK how about this. The next time you set up a recruiting booth at an airshow or some such event trying to get pilots to join up, tell them as you talk to them that in order for them to serve as an ES SAR DR or CD pilot or on an aircrew that they will have to:
1) have at least 175 hours PIC
2) get checked out twice - once as a CAP pilot and again as a mission pilot
3) that they will have to buy and wear several different types of uniforms
4) that if they don't meet height and weight requirements that they have to wear a distinctive uniform that identifies them as "fat"
5) oh and by the way, they will have to learn to march and stand in formation and prepare for uniform inspections at every weekly meeting.
Yeah, that'll really boost recruitment...
Quote from: Nomex Maximus on August 30, 2007, 02:28:08 PM
OK how about this. The next time you set up a recruiting booth at an airshow or some such event trying to get pilots to join up, tell them as you talk to them that in order for them to serve as an ES SAR DR or CD pilot or on an aircrew that they will have to:
1) have at least 175 hours PIC
2) get checked out twice - once as a CAP pilot and again as a mission pilot
3) that they will have to buy and wear several different types of uniforms
4) that if they don't meet height and weight requirements that they have to wear a distinctive uniform that identifies them as "fat"
5) oh and by the way, they will have to learn to march and stand in formation and prepare for uniform inspections at every weekly meeting.
Yeah, that'll really boost recruitment...
Though I believe your trying to be purposefully absurd, at least they would no not to join, instead of joining and dropping out in a few months, after they found these things out.
Many activities in CAP, even SM activities, take place in a military setting. Military courtesy is supposed to be displayed at all times. This is per regulation. Promotions and changes of command take place in formation, just refer to the CAPP that covers such things. These are not new ideas. The fact is, obstructionists refuse to comply with what is expected of them. If you know that you are expected to be in uniform and be at least familiar with how to perform in a formation and refuse to do it, you don't belong here, period.
Stop using the "volunteer" flag as an excuse for failing to meet the standard. If you think the regulation is hurting the organization, change it.
Quote from: Nomex Maximus on August 30, 2007, 02:28:08 PM
3) that they will have to buy and wear several different types of uniforms
They dont have to buy several types of uniforms. Just because several types are authorized doesnt mean they HAVE to wear them all. When Ifly I only wear the Flight suit. Everytime.
Quote from: Nomex Maximus on August 30, 2007, 02:28:08 PM
OK how about this. The next time you set up a recruiting booth at an airshow or some such event trying to get pilots to join up, tell them as you talk to them that in order for them to serve as an ES SAR DR or CD pilot or on an aircrew that they will have to:
1) have at least 175 hours PIC
2) get checked out twice - once as a CAP pilot and again as a mission pilot
3) that they will have to buy and wear several different types of uniforms
4) that if they don't meet height and weight requirements that they have to wear a distinctive uniform that identifies them as "fat"
5) oh and by the way, they will have to learn to march and stand in formation and prepare for uniform inspections at every weekly meeting.
Yeah, that'll really boost recruitment...
175 hours PIC? Sure. I'll tell them that. I will tell them that the flying we do in CAP is NOT the flying that a rookie private pilot should be doing. We engage in maneuvering flight in the 500-1000 feet AGL range. A 100-hour private pilot will kill himself and his crew trying that. it is exactly the kind of flying that your instructor told you to avoid. We are not up to the standard of a military combat aviator, but we ain't no slackards, neither.
Checkouts? Twice? Sure. Once to start a mission-pilot training program, to make sure you are ready, and once as your final exam to get rated. Once a year after that, plus mandatory safety briefings, review of your flight profile by a flight release officer, and a lot of paperwork. Welcome to the Air Force. If you can't hack it, OK. Stay home.
Uniforms? Hell yes. ALL officers buy their own uniforms. At least with CAP you get to buy them as you need them. When I was commissioned I had to spring for about $700 worth of uniforms by OCS graduation. Then 6 months later I got my initial uniform allowance, $250. It isn't the cost in money to buy the uniform, its the cost in committment, time, and sometimes blood that earns the privilege of wearing it.
Fat? Sorry. I hate the fat guy uniforms, too. Lose the weight. I did.
Uniforms and inspections? Patton said: "An officer is always on parade." Your uniform has to be right all the time, everywhere you go. Formations are a military fact of life, and a part of our shared culture.
Nomex, I hate to say it, but your attitude sets you apart from the mainstream much more than your fat-guy uniform.
Hi, my name is gene nad I wear a "fat-guy" uniform.
It's my pride in my uniform that keeps me in Navy Blue because it is the proper thing to do even though I am "Only" 25 lbs over (and losing). I see a lot of people with more rank than I have that should be ashamed to be in Camo or AF blues; I have a hard time seeing them as professional or military due to the simple disrespect that they pay to our country's military uniform and the regulations regarding it's wear.
They might not be AF-issue, but I try to take care of my BBDUs as if I were still standing guardmount in SAC.
Quote from: floridacyclist on August 30, 2007, 06:08:31 PM
Hi, my name is gene nad I wear a "fat-guy" uniform.
It's my pride in my uniform that keeps me in Navy Blue because it is the proper thing to do even though I am "Only" 25 lbs over (and losing). I see a lot of people with more rank than I have that should be ashamed to be in Camo or AF blues; I have a hard time seeing them as professional or military due to the simple disrespect that they pay to our country's military uniform and the regulations regarding it's wear.
They might not be AF-issue, but I try to take care of my BBDUs as if I were still standing guardmount in SAC.
Thank you for having the integrity that some don't have.
Quote from: Nomex Maximus on August 30, 2007, 02:28:08 PM
OK how about this. The next time you set up a recruiting booth at an airshow or some such event trying to get pilots to join up, tell them as you talk to them that in order for them to serve as an ES SAR DR or CD pilot or on an aircrew that they will have to:
1) have at least 175 hours PIC
2) get checked out twice - once as a CAP pilot and again as a mission pilot
3) that they will have to buy and wear several different types of uniforms
4) that if they don't meet height and weight requirements that they have to wear a distinctive uniform that identifies them as "fat"
5) oh and by the way, they will have to learn to march and stand in formation and prepare for uniform inspections at every weekly meeting.
Yeah, that'll really boost recruitment...
Did you have some bad experience you want to share with all of us?
I'm sorry we're not some hard core, hard charging, devil may care, to hell with the rules two aircraft a day finding pararescue SAR organization.
But we are a pesudo military organization, with a long military based tradition. If you don't like that, join the local volunteer fire department. Join the local ambulence company. Put your application in for the police academy. This club has rules, and if you don't want to follow them, then you may want to find something else.
I'm about ten pounds over the weight limit, and I spent the extra couple of bucks to pick up the right uniforms (Did I mention I'm an 19 year old college stupid?)
Quote from: ♠SARKID♠ on August 28, 2007, 03:53:32 PM
What do you guys think of having senior members take a manditory basic Drill and Ceremonies class? The ...
JThelman - See above. My answer is no, it would be a bad idea. Sorry if that greatly frustrates people but I don't think it is something that needs to be mandatory. In particular I think that making the adults dress up and play soldier is a really bad idea. The question was asked.
I also think it is unfair that I should be told to leave the organization just cuz I have a differing opinion. Awfully narrowminded of the military wannabe types I should say. I say that if you really want to do all the D&C stuff you ought to go and join the Real Military - if you think I should leave because I don't want to do it.
John Kachenmeister - you didn't get what I was trying to convey. I have no problem doing the first four things on my list. The fourth is going to rub a few potential recruits the wrong way. It's the fifth one (and the whole point of this thread) that would be the deal buster in my opinion. Tell people that they have to do all this stuff, put in lots of volunteer hours abiding by CAP regulations, and oh, by the way, we want you to always dress up in a fancy uniform each week and stand in some formation and be inspected by someone else who also isn't in the Real Military. We have a hard enough time attracting the people who are willing to do all that it takes to do the first four items. We don't need to pile on number five.
Quote from: Nomex Maximus on August 30, 2007, 06:34:22 PM
Quote from: ♠SARKID♠ on August 28, 2007, 03:53:32 PM
What do you guys think of having senior members take a mandatory basic Drill and Ceremonies class? The ...
JThelman - See above. My answer is no, it would be a bad idea. Sorry if that greatly frustrates people but I don't think it is something that needs to be mandatory. In particular I think that making the adults dress up and play soldier is a really bad idea. The question was asked.
I also think it is unfair that I should be told to leave the organization just cuz I have a differing opinion. Awfully narrowminded of the military wannabe types I should say. I say that if you really want to do all the D&C stuff you ought to go and join the Real Military - if you think I should leave because I don't want to do it.
The unfortunate reality of a message board is that you don't always know who your speaking to.
Nomex, I own the t-shirt. Hell, i even helped design it. YOU didn't come here to play "Soldier". Did you come here to play CAP? Maybe if you were familiar the responsibilities you have agreed to fulfill, you would be less apt to talk about others playing soldier and more inclined to recognize that perhaps you should be doing more.
Drill, ceremony, customs and military courtesies are MANDATORY training in level one. What has been suggested is that we try a little harder so that when SM's form up for a change of command, they don't look like idiots.
Might I ask, which regulation states you don't have to do these things?
Quote from: Nomex Maximus on August 30, 2007, 06:34:22 PM
Quote from: ♠SARKID♠ on August 28, 2007, 03:53:32 PM
What do you guys think of having senior members take a manditory basic Drill and Ceremonies class? The ...
JThelman - See above. My answer is no, it would be a bad idea. Sorry if that greatly frustrates people but I don't think it is something that needs to be mandatory. In particular I think that making the adults dress up and play soldier is a really bad idea. The question was asked.
I also think it is unfair that I should be told to leave the organization just cuz I have a differing opinion. Awfully narrowminded of the military wannabe types I should say. I say that if you really want to do all the D&C stuff you ought to go and join the Real Military - if you think I should leave because I don't want to do it.
Then why are you in a paramilitary organization? You can take CAP or not. CAP has the military background. It is our tradition. As far as D&C, I do not think it is too much to ask that all members know how to fall in for formation, basic movements- for promotions and such, and saluting. I think that memorizing the AFMAN 36-2203 is a bad idea, as is practicing parade formations or a pass in review.
Like it or not, we will be judged by outside people as to how valuable we could be to them. If we look bad/unprofessional- we will not be called, no matter what we really can do.
Uniform inspections are good for a couple of reasons.
1- the Cadets do them, we should not expect them to do something we do not- PT the exception.
2- Provides members the ability to correct defects in uniforms that they missed
3- Reflects Credit to AF and CAP when looking good- see above about other people see us.
Do I think that there should be senior UI every week no. Every other month or quarter, sure. For example, last night I accidentally mixed a Winter Bottom w/ summer top. How was I going to know that I did? I didn't see it before, and I know that I wore the same combination before. Now I know.
Quote from: Nomex Maximus on August 30, 2007, 06:34:22 PM
Quote from: ♠SARKID♠ on August 28, 2007, 03:53:32 PM
What do you guys think of having senior members take a manditory basic Drill and Ceremonies class? The ...
JThelman - See above. My answer is no, it would be a bad idea. Sorry if that greatly frustrates people but I don't think it is something that needs to be mandatory. In particular I think that making the adults dress up and play soldier is a really bad idea. The question was asked.
I also think it is unfair that I should be told to leave the organization just cuz I have a differing opinion. Awfully narrowminded of the military wannabe types I should say. I say that if you really want to do all the D&C stuff you ought to go and join the Real Military - if you think I should leave because I don't want to do it.
John Kachenmeister - you didn't get what I was trying to convey. I have no problem doing the first four things on my list. The fourth is going to rub a few potential recruits the wrong way. It's the fifth one (and the whole point of this thread) that would be the deal buster in my opinion. Tell people that they have to do all this stuff, put in lots of volunteer hours abiding by CAP regulations, and oh, by the way, we want you to always dress up in a fancy uniform each week and stand in some formation and be inspected by someone else who also isn't in the Real Military. We have a hard enough time attracting the people who are willing to do all that it takes to do the first four items. We don't need to pile on number five.
My name is Themann.
I am about as anti playing soldier as it gets. That's the main reason I don't wear the military style uniform.
I also can't remember I did anything more then stand in formation and salute.
However, if an SM doesn't know much of the stuff that I learned as a cadet, or at least knows enough to shut up and leave me alone, I'm tempted to ignore him.
Quote from: JThemann on August 30, 2007, 08:28:15 PM
My name is Themann.
I am about as anti playing soldier as it gets. That's the main reason I don't wear the military style uniform.
I also can't remember I did anything more then stand in formation and salute.
However, if an SM doesn't know much of the stuff that I learned as a cadet, or at least knows enough to shut up and leave me alone, I'm tempted to ignore him.
Jay The Mann -
Sorry I got confused.
The question before us here is whether we should have mandatory drill and ceremony for senior members. As if they need it in the first place. That has sort of been taken for granted here, I have seen no research that seniors are less able to handle drill and ceremony than anyone else. Sort of an age discrimintation thing here, I think. And I believe that age discrimination is NOT one of the CAP core values...
But nonetheless. Let's consider it's impact on the new recruit. What motivates the new recruit. Is it not a sense of professionalism, a sense of patriotism, a sense of volunteerism? Then why all the need for playing soldier? Is the military the sole owner of professionalism? I bet I could take any number of professions and show that their members are ready to serve at a moments notice. Take podiatry for example. What makes a podiatrist get up and go to work in the morning. The prospect of seeing dirty feet all day? The smell? The queazy itchy goosey patients with their fungus infected feet? But nonetheless they go and do it, each and every day. Performing their examinations and applying their ointments. Why? Because they are professionals. You could learn a thing or two from seeing how podiatrists serve their fellow man. Perhaps, maybe, someday YOU might bring the level of professionalism of the podiatrist into CAP. I think it might just be a great step forward, no pun intended. Maybe you should salute them.
Mandatory drill and ceremony for seniors? No, I still don't think so. Mandatory foot inspections, deoderants and proper footwear, well that's another thread.
--Nomex.
But you haven't even talked about one part of what makes CAP, well, CAP. That is our military affiliation just as important is our background. We have the background as military as well as corporate. A Podiatrist is only corporate- here is no military, unless a AD MD. Podiatry does not have the mil background, so he/she isn't expected to behave in a military manner on duty. WE all know how the mil acts, otherwise it wouldn't be an issue. So, the real question is, as far as I'm concerned is this: Where does CAP fall in the balance between them? Some say more mil, some say less. I'm not saying that we should be as proficient as a mil Drill Team, but I also think that we should be able to maneuver in the appropriate manner at the right times.
Could some the former mil members confirm this idea for me? Here it is: If you- a CAP Member- go to make a report to a Military Officer- LTC,Col or any GEN-, or Senior NCO- E-7 to E-9- and the member is wearing Service Dress. However, this member is not wearing it correctly, fails to salute an officer, and does not act the part; are you the Mil Officer/SNCO going to give this member any real consideration?
Or, How about same member goes to any civilian agency and does the same thing- obviously no saluting-? Do you think that represents CAP in a Good way? ???
I really don't think so.
This isn't about "playing soldier." This is about portraying the image that CAP represents. If you don't like it, thats tough. You can not expect a paramilitary organization to not act that way and be taken credibly. I'm sorry to break this to you, but the hippie age is over, long time ago; it is time to be relevant. Part of being relevant is not making your self look bad. D&C, C&C go a long way to helping you get there.
CAP isn't like a Starburst's Candy, where you can pick the pieces you like, and discard the ones you don't. We're like a Snickers, many different things, all wrapped up together. Go CAP. Lets roll.
"Playing soldier?" I have always had a strange problem with that phrase.
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=2885.0
The Cadet who started this thread had a valid question., and No, is a valid answer. We can make all kinds of 'should be' arguments, but the fact of is that most Senior members are NOT going to spend time learning things that they see no practical value in.
Every one has a duty to support ALL of our missons. Every one is NOT required to participate in all of them. We each bring what we are willing to give. It is the duty of the Leadership to ensure that what we bring is not wasted.
We all owe each other the courtesy of respect. The idea that we should run off members because they do not meet X's oppinion of what a CAP member should be is just wrong.
Now we DO need to teach some basic Courtesy. Lets start with the basics, You don't interupt a conversation,
You give the instructor at the front of the class your undivided attention and,
You stop and think about the situation from the other persons point of view BEFORE you start beating him up?
I'm talking Seniors and Cadets.
Quote from: eaglefly on September 03, 2007, 08:44:55 PM
The Cadet who started this thread had a valid question., and No, is a valid answer.
. . .
I'm talking Seniors and Cadets.
Yep, I agree.
Nomex, I'm about as pro military as you can get. CAP did after all start off shortly after it's in inception as a COMBAT unit. The last I checked we flew armed aircraft into battle against a foreign nations military vessels. that means we have a history as a combat military unit, even if it did happen 60 some years ago. The mission may have changed with the times, but CAP is, in it's heart still a military organization, we may be civilians but we do things in a military manner because it is our heritage, and without that heritage we wouldn't be who we are or even who we should or could be.
It's my opinion and maybe mine alone that we should be much closer to the Air Force or Air National guard with our standards. We should hold ourselves higher and demand more from our members, perhaps we lose a few along the way but we would gain more from it ultimately. no one really respects an organization that doesn't maintain high standards for participation and for leadership. As the Air Force Aux, whether full time or part time and that distinction is really only valid on missions...we should be holding ourselves to real world Air Force standards as close as possible. If you didn't join CAP to "play soldier" as you put it, perhaps CAP isn't for you. Not everyone wants to be in a military style organization, it's not for everyone and thats ok.
As Officers in the U.S. Civil Air Patrol - USAF Aux we should know enough C&C and perhaps a little D&C so as to not embarrass ourselves in front of military personnel. If you truly want to be a part of CAP and not have to learn or practice those sort of things then perhaps staying a SM without grade is for you, just wear the golf shirt. No has said you must become an Officer. The last thing we want the military to view us as is a joke. And doing our own things because we want to be different will do just that. We have to maintain our image, it's all that we have. Lets look at our heritage and then lets look at where want to be further into our future, and then let's hope that they go well together.
These are my opinions alone, I do not intend to insult anyone. agree or disagree with them, that's up to you.
The underlying issue is "if we are a para-military organization, why do we do such a poor job at it?"
I think that's worth exploring.
Can you have an "all military CAP," where everyone wears military gear and follows customs and courtesies. - yup.
Pros
With waivers for weeble shaped individuals, we can mimic USAF culture.
We'd probably increase attention to detail and reg-following (two things the military culture is known for)
We might get a little more respect from Joe Airman on the streetcorner, as we'd look and act more like him.
It would better support the cadet training mission, as every senior would be a better role model for a military cadet program.
Cons
There's no doubt that we'd lose some members. Especially pilots. Which, like it or not, are pretty important to what we do.
It would take training time away from other things to teach this stuff. We've only got so many hours in the week to train CAP stuff - is D&C and shoe-shining a good use of a senior member's time contribution.
Can you have an "all civilian CAP" where all seniors wears corporate suits, we abolish customs and courtesies, and probably stop using military grade (since it serves little purpose)? - yup.
Pros
Eliminates any whiff of "wannabee." We're not USAF officers - we're volunteer USAF civilians.
In a different way, this might help CAP-military relations - the military has no problem dealing with civilian agencies, but sometimes gets confused with para-military groups.
Eliminates huge amounts of wheel spinning over 39-1. Just put on a golf shirt and do your job.
Focuses training on mission accomplishment. Substance over form.
Might be more amenable to real servicemen. From what I've seen, lots of them (especially the senior officers) seem more comfortable in CAP golf shirts as it is, having had enough saluting in their previous life.
Cons
Doesn't necessarily fit well with the cadet training mission (which IS military).
Will be a turn off for members who are primarily attracted to "being an officer" over "accomplishing CAP's missions" (wait, this might be a pro, rather than a con)
Doubtful anyone who has eagles is ready to turn them in for the good of the team.
How about a hybrid. Just a different hybrid from today's "be whatever you want" CAP?
Options include
1. Make all senior leaders over the cadet program abide by military standards. If you wear a golf shirt and have a beard, the biggest role you can have in the cadet program is as a "civilian cadet instructor." Kind of like the British cadet model.
or
2. Require more out of CAP officers in general, and restrict key leadership positions (squadron commanders, most group and wing staff) to CAP "officers." Golf shirts can help out, but they can't lead.
3. Require all field grade CAP members to be "military" - shave the beard, learn to salute and act like a military officer. More civilian members are limited to Captain and below.
Or we could just keep up the status quo. Play officer if you want. Don't if you don't want to. That sounds kind of dismissive, but it really is where we're at today.
I joined CAP for the military aspect of it. No, I dont get my jollies playing "officer" I am a real military officer. I do like the military structure, order and comraderie. Also, I have always wanted to be a USAF pilot but due to my vision I wasnt able to. So, for me, CAP is the closets I will be to being a Air Force pilot be it real or "artificial", it work for me. So, yes, I admit, I like the miliytary aspcet of CAP. If they did away with the military part, I would leave this organization. Back when I joined in 1988, CAP was very pro military. Nowadays its pro Homeland security. A big change. I am not a mission pilot although I am getting interested in it, but my primary reason is to motivate the youths in my community to pursue careers in military aviation.
How about we keep it like it is? The original question was about whether seniors should have another required class about D&C. Presently we don't have such a required class. And things are working out OK.
Now, if you want to talk about improving CAP, well that's a whole nother subject.
For what it's worth, I think CAP should have requirements of seniors such that we would be viewed by the Real Military as Real Volunteers. Why don't Real Military see us as equals? Because we don't march right or salute right? No, I believe (and those who are or have been Real Military can correct me and no doubt you will) the reason that Real Military do not view us with the same level of trust and confidence that they have for each other is that they don't think that we can operate at "their level" of commitment. But I believe we can and should be allowed to help carry our military's burden as volunteers and I think the Real Military should learn to be able to let us help. They need to show us what we need to do to operate at "their level" of commitment.
The question then would be, what would convince the officers of the Real Military that we can and should be trusted with all manner of military service that would be appropriate for non-paid civilian volunteers? What exactly would we need to do to earn their resect as fellow officers (and please, let's not hear about boot camp, and feats of physical strength and courage). For example, what do we need to do to convince the Real Military that we can be trusted to operate their radios for them? To stand watch over something important? A lot of civilian volunteers are going to be overweight, or old, or have physical limitations that would prevent them from serving in the regular military. But they are nonetheless capable of doing lots of useful things - much more than CAP presently is allowed to do.
I am hoping that the answer to these questions is not that the military would trust us to do more if we just did a better job wearing our uniforms, marching and saluting.
Quote from: Nomex Maximus on September 05, 2007, 09:56:28 PM
How about we keep it like it is? The original question was about whether seniors should have another required class about D&C. Presently we don't have such a required class. And things are working out OK.
I agree, keep it like it is. Let those that want to drive D&C participate...let those that do not simply stand respectfully during promotions and the like.
There, everyone wins.
Quote from: Nomex Maximus on September 05, 2007, 09:56:28 PM
I am hoping that the answer to these questions is not that the military would trust us to do more if we just did a better job wearing our uniforms, marching and saluting.
From what I have seen, it has been a combination of that^^
and the results of some members actions- not always the CAP/CC.
Unfortunately, Many RM do not see or hear of CAP all that often. When they do see us, how are we perceived by them? Are uniforms correct and looking good? Many base what they think you can do by how well you present yourself. Say you, a Captain, come across a RM Major, and fail to salute. He's probably not going to think very highly because you wear the Grade but can't follow through with what that means. etc. Not to go back into that argument again.
Then we have the times that there are members that screw it up for us. Say, Capt. Smith and Maj Doe are giving a briefing about a new operational mode that their wing is going to, but they take too long for the time given, in a nonmilitary fashion, etc- The officer you just gave the briefing to would likely say: thank you, don't call us, we'll call you. Then might just obstruct you for years when you try again- even after you get yourself straightened out.
I do not think it is all about the uniforms, but it is there- just like
screwing the pooch messing up.
I think what many are missing here is that no one is proposing that all eniors need to be trained to perform on the region drill team!
All we're looking for is a basic standard that is known by all.
Quote from: Nomex Maximus on September 05, 2007, 09:56:28 PM
I am hoping that the answer to these questions is not that the military would trust us to do more if we just did a better job wearing our uniforms, marching and saluting.
I've addressed the marching, so I'll leave it alone. On the issue of wearing uniforms, there's plenty there.
Appearance is important, and there is really no argument against it. If you go apply for an office job wearing jeans and a T-shirt, you probably won't get it. The military focuses a great deal on appearance, and without presenting an appearance that's equally detail oriented, you won't get their attention.
You certainly can't tell them that they have to accept our help, that they have to ignore our appearance, especially considering that we wear their uniforms. Wear their uniforms to the same standards they do, and they'll talk to you. Telling them that they have no place to judge you is the surest way to be ignored.
That being said, just getting people to wear uniforms properly is only the beginning. A sharp uniform will get your foot in the door. It won't necessarily get you through it. There are other things we still need to work on.
Quote from: Hawk200 on September 07, 2007, 01:00:00 AM
. . . The military focuses a great deal on appearance, and without presenting an appearance that's equally detail oriented, you won't get their attention. . .
What a shame our military hasn't evolved past that. There was a time when our military felt that being Black looked bad too. At least we have evolved past that.
I seem to remember a time when our Army in West Germany would have its soldiers use nail polish on the rubber seals of their M60 machineguns to make them look nice and shiney. Nevermind that it also caused the guns to fail in combat.
Given the choice, who should the military give their attention to: the sharp looking guy who is an idiot or the sloppy looking guy who knows his stuff? Sorry, I don't mean to ruffle feathers but as much as CAP needs to improve, so does the Real Military.
Quote from: Nomex Maximus on September 07, 2007, 01:09:55 AM
Quote from: Hawk200 on September 07, 2007, 01:00:00 AM
. . . The military focuses a great deal on appearance, and without presenting an appearance that's equally detail oriented, you won't get their attention. . .
What a shame our military hasn't evolved past that. There was a time when our military felt that being Black looked bad too. At least we have evolved past that.
I seem to remember a time when our Army in West Germany would have its soldiers use nail polish on the rubber seals of their M60 machineguns to make them look nice and shiney. Nevermind that it also caused the guns to fail in combat.
Yeah, it would probably be a bad thing to show military personnel our machine guns with the nail polish on them. It would definitely give the wrong impression.
Can we get real now?
What we're concerned with is presenting a professional appearance. That means ironing and tucking in your shirt, shining your shoes (if yours require it), wearing your hat (or stowing it) properly, and generally looking sharp. When it comes to a dress uniform, be it Air Force or corporate, looking sharp is the
norm, not the exception.
If you're not willing to do that, then you're part of the problem. The military is not going to change it's viewpoint on appearance, and their standards get more stringent as time passes. They're not going to just drop their standards because you only want to play your way.
Now would you like to explain what machine guns in Germany have to do with our appearance?
Quote from: Nomex Maximus on September 07, 2007, 01:09:55 AM
Given the choice, who should the military give their attention to: the sharp looking guy who is an idiot or the sloppy looking guy who knows his stuff? Sorry, I don't mean to ruffle feathers but as much as CAP needs to improve, so does the Real Military.
Nice time to edit....
The scenario you proposed is normal in the military. It's also normal for
society. It's not just the military that has the problem, it's civilization in general. Once society changes, the military will follow suit. To blame the military is not looking at the big picture.
Quote from: Hawk200 on September 07, 2007, 01:33:41 AMNow would you like to explain what machine guns in Germany have to do with our appearance?
It was claimed that appearance is oh so important to getting things done with the military. The example offered was that being concerned with appearance is not always a smart thing for the military to be concerned with. What was more important back then to those Real Military in West Germany in the 1980's? Passing an inspection or being ready for combat? Apparently back then, looking good was more important than being ready to win a war. Appearances are not as important as people around here seem to think they are, nor should they be. Stressing what we look like more than what we are capable of doing is not something good for CAP. That is my point.
Quote from: aveighter on September 07, 2007, 01:39:24 AM
This is rich! Hollywood couldn't pay enough for someone to think this stuff up.
Moronus Maximus would have us equate racial discrimination with a desire to maintain some semblance of professional appearance. I am quite sure the giants of the civil rights movement are spinning in their graves about now.
I am certain that most of you fellow posters here have by now concluded that Moronus is a pathetic fool with a massive inferiority complex. Probably another fantasy worlder with a keyboard but otherwise completely unable to exist in normal (decent) society and as such is only minimally (if at all) accomplished. I would be willing to wager he (it?, she?) is not even a member from the character of several of the posts.
The weak, foolish and useful idiots exist and even sometimes prosper within a structure that is built, maintained and defended by far better men and women who ask very little in return.
Such is the nature of a free society. Unfortunate, but it has always been so.
And I believe the tone of this posting violates the forum rules. And CAP core values.
Quote from: aveighter on September 07, 2007, 01:39:24 AM
This is rich! Hollywood couldn't pay enough for someone to think this stuff up.
Moronus Maximus would have us equate racial discrimination with a desire to maintain some semblance of professional appearance. I am quite sure the giants of the civil rights movement are spinning in their graves about now.
I am certain that most of you fellow posters here have by now concluded that Moronus is a pathetic fool with a massive inferiority complex. Probably another fantasy worlder with a keyboard but otherwise completely unable to exist in normal (decent) society and as such is only minimally (if at all) accomplished. I would be willing to wager he (it?, she?) is not even a member from the character of several of the posts.
The weak, foolish and useful idiots exist and even sometimes prosper within a structure that is built, maintained and defended by far better men and women who ask very little in return.
Such is the nature of a free society. Unfortunate, but it has always been so.
wooooah! way to shut down the thread, aveighter!
this thread is locked until it can be thoroughly reviewed.