GA-8 for scanner training

[jimmydeanno]

I haven't had any experience with the GA-8s but thought of this today...

The GA-8 according to the website has an 8 person capacity (pilot and right seat + 6 passengers) and a max takeoff weight of 4000lbs.

So with this increased capacity, why don't we (we may already, but I haven't seen it), use this plane as a platform for scanner training during organized SAR training events.

For instance, you could have A MP, Observer, Scanner Instructor and FIVE scanner trainees in this plane.  Fly some training sorties, have in flight instruction from the instructor and get all those people a training mission at the same time.  They could all maintain logs, and complete their other tasks.

It would provide a cheaper way to perform training, get more people certified and provide an ability for someone dedicated to training a scanner while the pilot trained the observer...

I have been to many training activities where people are trying to become scanners but there is only 2 planes so only a few people actually get their training missions.

Thoughts?

[TankerT]

Most of our GA-8's have the ARCHER system installed.  I think that this reduces the GA-8's seating and carrying capacity.  I'm not sure how easy it is to remove, but I understand they don't like to be putting it in and pulling it out all the time.

[Eclipse]

The low number of airframes, low number of qualified pilots, and PITA moving ARCHER out precludes this idea.

[flynd94]

So the GA-8 can carry 8 people and, has a MTOW of 4000lbs.  The question you need to ask is what is the BEW, the website lists an empty weight of 2200lbs so, now we have only 1800lbs to work with.  Now what about avgas, it can hold 88.7 gallons.  Let's say we only carry min fuel 65 gallons, that would be 390lbs of fuel, that now leaves us with 1400lbs.   Eight CAP folks, hmmmm (must remember to be PC) unless they are all cadets, now way. 

Plus, I have seen the GA-8 and they don't like to take out the archer station.

[RogueLeader]

You could still put more than one scanner.  You might be able to get 4 or five scanners.  Why, you might even to get some people archer trained at the same time*

*Note: I don't know if last is feasible or not, just a concept.

[jimmydeanno]

Alright so the Archer system gets in the way, but do all of them have Archers in them?  Even if you could put say 3 extra people in the back that's still 5 people total. 

[Psicorp]

And finally give a real purpose to the GA-8?  Nahhh

[jimmydeanno]

So am I correct in thinking that a lot of people here would agree with doing training this way if the archer wasn't in the back of these things?  There has to be some somewhere that hasn't taken delivery of an archer yet.

Has anyone here seen them do training like this?  Would it be worth bringing up to someone to even try?

[RiverAux]

I suspect that they are using them for Archer training on most exercises and depending on what they're looking for, visual scanners may not be of any extra help.  That being said, if theres room and no other plane to put a scanner on, let them ride....

[Psicorp]

Realizing that I'm not "in the loop" on a lot of this stuff, I haven't heard that the Archer system has been used much.  I haven't even heard about it being used at Exercises.  Of course, the closest GA-8 to here is in Wisconsin, so the whole point is mute.

[Dragoon]

I think there's something to be said for mass scanner training.

Imaging setting up a grid with 6 or so targets in it.  Then flying 5 or so scanners through the grid, with each one marking the targets he finds on a map.

No only would they get practice with both scanning and map reading, but we'd find out who has good eyeballs and who doesn't.  (On of the biggest problems with the current scanner SQTR is that you never have to prove you can actually SEE anything!)

And by doing 5 or so at once, you could knock out 20-30 scanners in a day.  Not bad...

[AlphaSigOU]

Realizing that I'm not "in the loop" on a lot of this stuff, I haven't heard that the Archer system has been used much.  I haven't even heard about it being used at Exercises.  Of course, the closest GA-8 to here is in Wisconsin, so the whole point is mute.

ARCHER missions have been pretty low-key. I'm in a squadron with an ARCHER-equipped GA-8 and Texas Wing uses them regularly. We have used the ARCHER system on a REDCAP in Oklahoma at the request of Oklahoma Wing with good success - unfortunately the plane we were looking for was on the losing end of a thunderstorm. Wasn't much left of it, but ARCHER was able to track most of the wreckage.

Removing - and installing - the ARCHER air unit is not the easiest thing to do. And if you have to schlep the ground station to a remote location, that cuts even more in usable payload.

There have been occasions where we have conducted scanner/observer training in the GA-8, and it's usually no more than about 4 in the crew, including the pilot.

[bosshawk]

Folks, let me put some of this discussion to bed.  ARCHER is a national asset and the planes and sensor systems are controlled by National.  It takes special permission to put the things in the air.  Ergo, it has to be approved by the NOC and whomever on the National Staff controls the planes.

The planes were bought specifically to carry the ARCHER system: there is no provision to remove and replace the system, except for maintenance.  Somebody else was correct when they said that with the system in place the plane is a four place airplane: period.  With eight people in the plane, you get to take about an hours fuel.  Add a hot day and the density altitude problem gets even worse.

Great ideas, but not probably going to happen anytime soon. 

[Dragoon]

Didn't some GA-8s get used for transport stuff during Katrina with no Archer onboard?

[Dustoff]

Didn't some GA-8s get used for transport stuff during Katrina with no Archer onboard?

Yes, there were used to transport beans and bodies (no bullets)    also newspapers.

Camp Shelby, MS to NO, Biloxi, and one mission to Fort Polk, LA

No ARCHER gear on-board.

One mission for the USPS (checking on their facilities in the bayou), several aerial recon missions involving the NGA.

My fondest memory of Camp Shelby - Love Bugs - what wonderful creatures.   

Jim

[Dragoon]

Thought so. When they bought the GA-8s, there was some mention of their transport utility, a capability CAP didn't have a lot of.

[Tubacap]

Just looking for a quick reply on the GA-8, has anyone used it for CD missions?  Yes or no answers then into the realm of PMing for FOUO.

[bosshawk]

Being the CD Officer for California Wing, I cannot and will not comment on the CD question, until and unless I can ascertain that you have the necessary CD screening and permissions.  If you PM me with some sort of proof that you have that access, I'll consider answering your question.

Would suggest that, in the interest of maintaining the CAP Chain of Command, that you pose that question to your Wing CDO.  A public posting of this sort is not the place to ask that question.

[Tubacap]

Question moved into the PM world, thanks everyone!

[Spacecenter]

Two things I'd like to share:

1-Cranking out scanners doesn't do anything. Certified does not mean qualified. Better to train 2 on 1 instead of 2 on 5 or 6. Training scanners is not an assembly line activity.

2--8s are assigned to the Regions, not Squadrons, Groups or even Wings. That is why they you may never see one. Wings manage them.

Matt Scherzi
CAWG 04434(hey-I'm old) Capflight 743
ftp://http://sq40.cawg.cap.gov/

[jimmydeanno]

1-Cranking out scanners doesn't do anything. Certified does not mean qualified. Better to train 2 on 1 instead of 2 on 5 or 6. Training scanners is not an assembly line activity.

I agree that they shouldn't be 'cranked out.'  However, I think most people will attest that their scanner training (not including ground instruction) involved sitting in the back of the plane and staring out the window - with minimal if any interaction from the pilot until back on the ground.  Not because the pilot didn't want to help, but was focused on training the observer sitting next to them and flying the plane.

The scenario I provided involved putting an instructor in the plane soley dedicated to air time instruction, without having to 'bother' the pilot who would be instructing the observer in the right seat.  This would enable more interaction between the students and an instructor, the instructor to answer questions, point out things, etc.

I think it would work out better than what I and most people receive in terms of 'scanner training.'

2--8s are assigned to the Regions, not Squadrons, Groups or even Wings. That is why they you may never see one. Wings manage them.

Right, and the example above said for 'organized SAR training events.'  These are usually Wing or Group activities, so getting one or two to a Region SAR College or the like shouldn't prove to be all that big of a task.  Then when the 50 people that just paid to come to this thing actually get an opportunity to get some flights instead of 6 or seven possibly getting qualified, sit with (an) experienced scanner(s), observe how more experienced scanners do things, bounce questions off each other in the air, etc.

ARCHER aside, I was wondering if anyone knows of anywhere they may actually do this already or have at least tried it to see how it works out.  If not, why not see if it is a practical thing to do...you know, that thing called 'progress' (or as the Brit's say 'pro-gress')

[Dragoon]

1-Cranking out scanners doesn't do anything. Certified does not mean qualified. Better to train 2 on 1 instead of 2 on 5 or 6. Training scanners is not an assembly line activity.

"Cranking out" isn't the intent.  Providing BETTER training is.

Back in the day, USAF used to put 8 or so Navigators, with an instructor, up in a single plane to train.  Worked extremely well.  Each was working individually, but working on exactly the same nav problems (i.e. where are we right now, and what will it take to get from here to there?) Saved money and time, and  produced good folks.  Then you finished each guy up individually.  That's the concept I'm stealing from.

The most important part of the scanners job, is, well, scanning.  Right now, that's the one thing we don't actually test worth a darn. 

The best way to test whether the candidate can actually spot ground targets is to set up a grid with a whole bunch of targets, fly the grid and see how many of them he can spot.

The problem with this approach is that it requires a lot of setup, and you'll only be able to use the grid  for a handful of trainees a day.  And you'll burn a lot of fuel.  Unless you want a lot of time wasted on the ground with turn-around, you'll need to commit at least two planes.  And probably 4 pilots.

But...if I can get 4 -6 scanners looking down in that grid at once, instead of just 2, I can double or triple the throughput of the exercise with little or no loss in quality of training.

Of course, there's still elements of the job that are best done one on one, and should be.  But I can nail the basics en mass.