First ELT hunt!

[stillamarine]

So as many of you know I've been working hard on my Aircrew stuff, Got my MS on 11 May and started on my MO SQTR right away. Today (or yesterday actually 6/9) I flew my first sortie as a MO Trainee on a routine Fire Patrol over the Air Force Reservation. Normal flight, no issues. We land go to lunch when we get back we check the weather. Nasty! Lots of storms coming in so we made the decision to scrub the sortie. Head home, get in my fav chair and start to enjoy the last couple innings of the Tigers/Mets game.

Phone rings and its my PIC from earlier stating that AFRCC had a ELT going off on the 121.5 about 7 miles NE of Defuniak Springs, FL.  We wait while the IC sees if he can get a ground team together to check it out, but he doesn't so back to the airport I go!

We got to the airport and still pretty nasty out. We delay about an hour and half or so, and up we go skirting the northern edges of the storms. About 2150 local we hear the ELT near Defuniak Springs and figure out its coming from the airport (54J).

Touch down and begin the search, (no handheld so up and down the ramp watching the Becker) I swear up and down to the Pilot I think it's coming from the Helo on the ramp. So we shut down and head towards the helo. As we get closer I realize that the helo is one of 2 owned by my hospital!!. We knock on the crew building and out walks a flight nurse that I know and first words out of his mouth were "What the (blank) are you doing here??" we explain the situation he gets the Pilot up. Pilot looks but his switches are all off. he calls his Maintenance person in adn he pulls off the interior panel to the ELT and sure enough red light blinking!

ELT reset and off to home we go! So long day, we got close to crew rest limits there at the end but all and all I'm pretty proud of us! 

I'm also pretty excited that I get to use an actual mission (even though our Fire Patrols are actual missions) to finish my MO SQTR. Only thing I'm missing now is a BCUT!

[SarDragon]

Congrats on your success, bit I gotta ask one Q - how can you do this task - O-2002 Operate the Aircraft Radios - without a BCUT? Sitting in the right seat, you will be using the CAP radio, which requires a BCUT to key the mike.

[RogueLeader]

Congrats as well, good job on the mission, good way to get er done.   One thing to mention though, you may want to spend more experience in the backseat to know what the job is like before you go to commanding the flight.  That is what the MO is, that person tells the crew what to do.  Just thought you might want to know.

[stillamarine]

Congrats on your success, bit I gotta ask one Q - how can you do this task - O-2002 Operate the Aircraft Radios - without a BCUT? Sitting in the right seat, you will be using the CAP radio, which requires a BCUT to key the mike.

Task O-2002's performance measures (the pass or fail items needed to sign off the task) do not mention anything about having to have the BCUT.

Congrats as well, good job on the mission, good way to get er done.   One thing to mention though, you may want to spend more experience in the backseat to know what the job is like before you go to commanding the flight.  That is what the MO is, that person tells the crew what to do.  Just thought you might want to know.

I appreciate that, but here it's not really an option. We pretty much normally fly 2 man crews. PIC and MS or MO. I have about 25 hours mission time and it's all in the right seat. Closest I've been to the back is to get maps out of the map book.

I agree though and would have like to gotten the more experience in the back but our Squadron has such a high operation tempo that it just doesn't work out that way.

[SJFedor]

Congrats on your success, bit I gotta ask one Q - how can you do this task - O-2002 Operate the Aircraft Radios - without a BCUT? Sitting in the right seat, you will be using the CAP radio, which requires a BCUT to key the mike.

You don't need a BCUT to operate the VHF Comm radios for ATC communication. And for the CAP radio, as long as you have a supervisor who has a BCUT (Mission Pilot), you may operate the radio under that person's supervision. That's how they do hands on comm training in classes before everyone has their BCUT.


Major congrats to you man, it's awesome that your unit has such a high tempo. How are the fires down there going, anyway?

[stillamarine]

Congrats on your success, bit I gotta ask one Q - how can you do this task - O-2002 Operate the Aircraft Radios - without a BCUT? Sitting in the right seat, you will be using the CAP radio, which requires a BCUT to key the mike.

Major congrats to you man, it's awesome that your unit has such a high tempo. How are the fires down there going, anyway?

Thanks.

Friday was my first day back on fire patrol in a little while due to vacation but I hear they have been busy up here.

We kept an eye out the last 2 days for some areas they had a couple brush fires earlier in the week but nothing so far. Hopefully yesterdays rain helped a lot, but there was lightning with it so that is always a worry.

Speaking of, got to head to the airport to get ready for another day of it!

[SarDragon]

Congrats on your success, bit I gotta ask one Q - how can you do this task - O-2002 Operate the Aircraft Radios - without a BCUT? Sitting in the right seat, you will be using the CAP radio, which requires a BCUT to key the mike.

Task O-2002's performance measures (the pass or fail items needed to sign off the task) do not mention anything about having to have the BCUT.

Absolutely correct. However, how can you perform the functions related to the task (actually talking on the CAP radio), in accordance with the regs (quoted below) unless you first have a BCUT?

CAPR 100-1, CHAPTER 5  RADIO OPERATOR TRAINING

5-1. Requirements for Operating a CAP Radio Station. CAP radio stations are authorized by the Federal Government through the National Telecommunications and Information Administration for emergency, training, and operational activities. Members are authorized to operate CAP radio stations upon certification by wing or higher authority. Application for certification may be made after attending a communications orientation class. At wing level and below, this class is conducted under the oversight of the wing director of communications who will designate qualified trainers within the wing. The orientation class is encouraged for all CAP members--seniors and cadets--and will be composed of the following topics as a minimum.
a. Part I. Standard Operating Procedures. Basic familiarization and demonstration of do's and don'ts including:
(1) Calling and answering
(2) Use of call signs
(3) Operating the radio
(4) Basic prowords
(5) Prohibitions
(6) National communications policies
b. Part II. Local Operating Procedures. Basic familiarization with the specifics applicable to the local area in which the communications user will operate including information such as:
(1) Location and use of local repeaters
(2) Local operating practices
(3) Special local procedures
(4) Local net schedules
(5) Region, wing and local policies
c. In the future, a video product may replace Part I of the class. The entire orientation class should nominally take no more than 1 to 2 hours. There is no test. Trainees are certified upon the recommendation of the instructor to the wing director of communications.

5-2. Certification. Upon completion of the communications orientation class described in para 5-1, the class instructor forwards the recommendation for authorization up to wing or higher authority. Proof of this class must be retained in the individual's personnel records (CAPF 45, Senior Member Master Record, or CAPF 66, Cadet Master Record) and furnished to the appropriate wing/region officials upon request. When satisfied with the qualifications, the director of communications issues a Radio Operator Authorization, CAPF 76. See Figure 5-1. This authorization must be in the operator's possession when operating CAP radio equipment or when operating on CAP radio frequencies.

[bold text from the reg; colored text my emphasis]

I am in no way attempting to fault you personally. You have acted in good faith. Your leadership has failed you by not training you in the right order. Learning proper radio procedures first is a much better way to train, than using the stumble method  and then "reading the instructions" to figure out what you have been doing wrong.

The ROA classes that I attended, and now teach, emphasize proper training and procedures.

[CLB]

Congrats!  I remember my first one, wasn't an ELT, but a rack mount radio type thing in the local FAA radar site that somehow made SARSAT think it was a 243 ELT. 

Sat there for 3 hours chasing this thing and coordinating with the local SD and the FAA, but it was probably the most I've ever learned on any mission since.  Got a nice tour of the facility and a demonstration of how the radar works to boot.   

[IceNine]

SarDragon,
  does section 5-6 of CAPR 100-1 not apply to members as well as non-members? 

[Paraphrase]

CAP stations may be operated by non-members provided they are directly supervised by a certified individual (ROA holder)

[Eclipse]

As long as we're picking this apart, are you UDF?  Otherwise, how did you go looking for it on the ground.

One members recently mentioned that there is an "aircrew pass" on the requirement to be UDF for ramp checks and ELT's heard by the aircrew.

Can anyone quote on this? 

[stillamarine]

As long as we're picking this apart, are you UDF?  Otherwise, how did you go looking for it on the ground.

One members recently mentioned that there is an "aircrew pass" on the requirement to be UDF for ramp checks and ELT's heard by the aircrew.

Can anyone quote on this? 

Hmm ok well seeing as we couldn't get a ground team together I guess next time we will just ignore it once we know it's on the ground 

[jimmydeanno]

Boy, you guys are brutal...this fine gentleman comes on to tell everyone that he finally had an opportunity to put his skills and training to use in an actual event and people start picking him apart.

Well...you don't have a UDF rating, you can't look for things on the ground, only in the air...he knows how to use the equipment and has a rating in something other than GES.  He must know how to DF, navigate, use the radio, drive a vehicle and he was available.  Sounds good to me.

I have heard many stories about aircrews landing and doing a ramp search at an airport to deactivate an ELT.  Are you saying they shouldn't have?  He wasn't doing anything outside his scope of training.

Tim,

Congratulations on your first 'FIND' and thank you for all that you do.  I am glad to hear that you had an opportunity to put your new skills to test and came out victorious.

Jimmy

[Eclipse]

As long as we're picking this apart, are you UDF?  Otherwise, how did you go looking for it on the ground.

One members recently mentioned that there is an "aircrew pass" on the requirement to be UDF for ramp checks and ELT's heard by the aircrew.

Can anyone quote on this? 

Hmm ok well seeing as we couldn't get a ground team together I guess next time we will just ignore it once we know it's on the ground 

That attitude is what gets people in trouble - you dent a plane while you're playing Ground Pounder and
you may have no protection because you were performing in a role you are not qualified for.

Just because its easy and handy, doesn't make it right.

[Eclipse]

I have heard many stories about aircrews landing and doing a ramp search at an airport to deactivate an ELT.  Are you saying they shouldn't have?  He wasn't doing anything outside his scope of training.

Yes, that is precisely what I am saying. Assuming he's not UDF or GT, everything he did after he exited the aircraft was outside his scope of qualification.  His ability is not the issue here.

The excuse " who else would do it", "we were right there, anyway" do not fly. You're either qualified or you're not.

As I asked originally, a couple members have mentioned to me that as an aircrew member there is some verbiage that allows for the deactivation of an ELT if its on the ramp, etc. 

I would really like to see that, because it would solve a lot of issues for my people. Barring that, all the aircrews can do is land and point.

[stillamarine]

All we did was land and knock on the door. The Helo's crew chief turned off the ELT not us.

[stillamarine]

As long as we're picking this apart, are you UDF?  Otherwise, how did you go looking for it on the ground.

One members recently mentioned that there is an "aircrew pass" on the requirement to be UDF for ramp checks and ELT's heard by the aircrew.

Can anyone quote on this? 

Hmm ok well seeing as we couldn't get a ground team together I guess next time we will just ignore it once we know it's on the ground 

That attitude is what gets people in trouble - you dent a plane while you're playing Ground Pounder and
you may have no protection because you were performing in a role you are not qualified for.

Just because its easy and handy, doesn't make it right.

How would I have dented a plane? We never touched any plane except our own.

[SJFedor]

I have heard many stories about aircrews landing and doing a ramp search at an airport to deactivate an ELT.  Are you saying they shouldn't have?  He wasn't doing anything outside his scope of training.

Yes, that is precisely what I am saying. Assuming he's not UDF or GT, everything he did after he exited the aircraft was outside his scope of qualification.  His ability is not the issue here.

The excuse " who else would do it", "we were right there, anyway" do not fly. You're either qualified or you're not.

As I asked originally, a couple members have mentioned to me that as an aircrew member there is some verbiage that allows for the deactivation of an ELT if its on the ramp, etc. 

I would really like to see that, because it would solve a lot of issues for my people. Barring that, all the aircrews can do is land and point.

First off, congrats to you Capt. Williams on your new command.

His story states that, since they didn't have a DF unit or a handheld to exit the plane, they taxied around and used the on board DF equipment to locate the source. Once they had the source pinned, they ID'd the aircraft (needed for the report to AFRCC and the IC anyway), found the owners (Air Ambulance team on the field), advised them that they had a hot beacon, and the helo pilot did what he had to do and got it shut off.

I don't think there's anything there that is out of the scope of practice for an aircrew, the only time they left the aircraft was to advise the owner of the active beacon. If they were running around the ramp with a DF unit, or getting into a COV or POV to go take hits around the airport area, then yes, that's another qual, but I think they stayed within their own scope of practice on this one.

[Major Lord]

Sweet mother of Buddha! I hope these chicken-excrement-eating chairborne rangers are just being tongue in cheek! This C-Squared attitude that "you must have done something wrong" is the bedwetting, left handed commie loving attitude that makes CAP the laughingstock of the SAR community today! I am glad that you got your first soft kill on an ELT! Many more where that came from! You did it just right ( except you should have had an L-per, or at least an aviation handheld or scanner to do body-shield DF on the ground) CAP is living proof of the axiom that if you argue for your limitations, sure enough, they're yours! Don't waste your time even thinking about getting a B-CUT:they are for cadets. Get an A-Cut and a callsign!

Hooah!

Capt. Lord

[RogueLeader]

Some ComKings won't/don't like giving the A-cut w/o the B.  Not saying where he is, cause I don't know.

[Major Lord]

B-Cut is not a prerequisite for A-Cut. If they turn him down for an A-Cut after he takes the class, they are obviously punishing him for his childhood indiscretions with Uncle Sam's Misguided Children. I would love to help him write his hostile workplace environment complaint!

That being said, Comm people tend to be a little anachronistic sometimes  ( It has been said that most of them have unwrapped Star Wars action figures well into adulthood, but this is uncorroborated)

Capt. Lord

[RogueLeader]

That being said, Comm people tend to be a little anachronistic sometimes  ( It has been said that most of them have unwrapped Star Wars action figures well into adulthood, but this is uncorroborated)

Capt. Lord

It's not JUST Comm people.

[stillamarine]

Some ComKings won't/don't like giving the A-cut w/o the B.  Not saying where he is, cause I don't know.

Actually got an email from the CC today. He's going to arrange a Acut class instead of a BCUT

[RogueLeader]

Like I said, some, not all.

[Psicorp]

B-Cut is not a prerequisite for A-Cut. If they turn him down for an A-Cut after he takes the class, they are obviously punishing him for his childhood indiscretions with Uncle Sam's Misguided Children. I would love to help him write his hostile workplace environment complaint!

We generally like people to get the B-Cut first, since most new members have zero radio experience.   Get your B-Cut, get the MRO qualification, then get your A-Cut is our general mantra.

That being said, Comm people tend to be a little anachronistic sometimes  ( It has been said that most of them have unwrapped Star Wars action figures well into adulthood, but this is uncorroborated)

Capt. Lord

Hey! I resemble that! 

[Psicorp]

Mr. Gardiner,

Great job on the ELT search!  I'm rather jealous of the seat time you're racking up especially since that area is as beautiful from the air as it is.

[Major Lord]

B-Cut is not a prerequisite for A-Cut. If they turn him down for an A-Cut after he takes the class, they are obviously punishing him for his childhood indiscretions with Uncle Sam's Misguided Children. I would love to help him write his hostile workplace environment complaint!

We generally like people to get the B-Cut first, since most new members have zero radio experience.   Get your B-Cut, get the MRO qualification, then get your A-Cut is our general mantra.

That being said, Comm people tend to be a little anachronistic sometimes  ( It has been said that most of them have unwrapped Star Wars action figures well into adulthood, but this is uncorroborated)

Capt. Lord

Hey! I resemble that! 

Thats okay, Lt's are not included as adults officially until they have turn in their light sabers....

Let me get this straight now, you are Safety and Comms? Hmmmmm

Capt. Lord

[RogueLeader]

B-Cut is not a prerequisite for A-Cut. If they turn him down for an A-Cut after he takes the class, they are obviously punishing him for his childhood indiscretions with Uncle Sam's Misguided Children. I would love to help him write his hostile workplace environment complaint!

We generally like people to get the B-Cut first, since most new members have zero radio experience.   Get your B-Cut, get the MRO qualification, then get your A-Cut is our general mantra.

That being said, Comm people tend to be a little anachronistic sometimes  ( It has been said that most of them have unwrapped Star Wars action figures well into adulthood, but this is uncorroborated)

Capt. Lord

Hey! I resemble that! 

Thats okay, Lt's are not included as adults officially until they have turn in their light sabers....

Let me get this straight now, you are Safety and Comms? Hmmmmm

Capt. Lord

ggggggggggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.  <in demonic voice "Mine, Mine, my precious" end demonic device>

[Psicorp]

That being said, Comm people tend to be a little anachronistic sometimes  ( It has been said that most of them have unwrapped Star Wars action figures well into adulthood, but this is uncorroborated)

Capt. Lord

Hey! I resemble that! 

Thats okay, Lt's are not included as adults officially until they have turn in their light sabers....

Let me get this straight now, you are Safety and Comms? Hmmmmm

Capt. Lord

That's right, I not only teach how to use a CAP radio, but I'll also stop you from sticking the antenna in the electrical outlet.    Some of us younger guys have to do double duty since some of the dinosaurs (speaking of anachronisms) aren't as involved as they used to be.