Firearms & GT (Split from NYPD Aux. thread)

[Flying Pig]

As far as first reporting.  Schools are the same way.  A student tells a teacher they were abused, the teacher doesnt run to the phone and call 911.  They report it to the counselor or school Psych, then to the Principal, Principal to Superintendent, then on to CPS etc. and  Ive been involved in this many times.  And in 10 years, I have yet to see it screw up a case.  Its pretty common and it works.

As far as the whole gun deal.  You know,  I have my gun in my center console when Im enroute and it stays there.  If I need to get out for any extended period, or know Im going to make a stop before or after the meeting, I remove my uniform shirt and put on a jacket or a flannel and put my gun on my belt, concealed.

In the end, do the right thing.  My Flight Officer Training Officer told me once, If your intentions werent selfish and self serving, and you were honestly trying to do the right thing, you'll probably be OK.
I cant see anyone booting you out of CAP because you ran to the assistance of a cop who was getting his a-- handed to him.  There have been several incidents of uniformed military people out to lunch, etc. in uniform helping an officer.  I was in the Corps with a guys who got the Navy-Marine Corps medal for it. In fact, havnt there ben a few members get the Silver or Bronze Medal of Valor for that?
If you do get heat, go to the local Police Officers Assoc and tell them you catching heat for helping one of their guys!  Then pull up a chair and watch the show........

[JohnKachenmeister]

FP:

I don't think the issue is helping out in a fight.  I think it is more involved than that.

OK, lets say you are on an AFAM, you locate the downed aircraft, which happened to be carrying a famous rock and roll rapper country music star.  Once word gets out as to where the wreck is, you end up with freaky fans coming out of the woods on ATV's, and they all want a piece of the airplane to sell on e-bay.

Obviously you call the cops.  The cops send a couple of deputies. 

A deputy tells a female fan to get away from the wreckage.  The girl says "F" You, pig, and grabs a piece of charred aileron.  The deputy does the predictable thing, and arrests the little wench.

Now, you happen to have a female officer on your GT.  The male deputy is understandably reluctant to search a young girl out in the forest with her friends no doubt taping the whole incident onto their cell phones.  So he asks to you have your female lieutenant conduct the search under his watchful supervision.

What are your orders, Captain Pig?

[RiverAux]

So he asks to you have your female lieutenant conduct the search under his watchful supervision.

If he's asking the female LT to do it, she shouldn't do it.  If he TELLS her to do it, she should if that is what the state law requires. 

However, I think this is a gray area here that probably should be explored by CAP's lawyers and explained better in our regulations.  They've probably never had it put to them.  Sounds like a good question to submit to the knowledgebase. 

[Major Lord]

FP:

I don't think the issue is helping out in a fight.  I think it is more involved than that.

OK, lets say you are on an AFAM, you locate the downed aircraft, which happened to be carrying a famous rock and roll rapper country music star.  Once word gets out as to where the wreck is, you end up with freaky fans coming out of the woods on ATV's, and they all want a piece of the airplane to sell on e-bay.

Obviously you call the cops.  The cops send a couple of deputies. 

A deputy tells a female fan to get away from the wreckage.  The girl says "F" You, pig, and grabs a piece of charred aileron.  The deputy does the predictable thing, and arrests the little wench.

Now, you happen to have a female officer on your GT.  The male deputy is understandably reluctant to search a young girl out in the forest with her friends no doubt taping the whole incident onto their cell phones.  So he asks to you have your female lieutenant conduct the search under his watchful supervision.

What are your orders, Captain Pig?

Conduct the serach yourself as a LEO and have the CAP female observe...(especially if the hippie chick and the CAP member are cute...but what are the odds of that happening?) I have never had any problems searching prsioners incident to arrest, male, female or....other

Capt. Lord

[DNall]

Some states, although not all, have "Youth Group Leaders" lumped in with day care providers, teachers, and others who are required to report suspected child abuse.....

I understand all that. However, no state law I know of requires LE (or whomever) to be the first report. There is nothing that says you can't consult with counsel (including corp counsel) prior to reporting, which is exactly what the reg is requiring you to do. You call the Wg/CC & get a conf call going with Wg & nat legal to sort out if you are required to report & how that report should be worded. The idea is that they will do any necessary reporting, but if they don't then you are responsible. So, you should not let them off the phone without understanding that you are legally required to report the incident & asking for their help in doing so the right way.

So he asks to you have your female lieutenant conduct the search under his watchful supervision.

If he's asking the female LT to do it, she shouldn't do it.  If he TELLS her to do it, she should if that is what the state law requires.  

So you want an agent of the US military, who the public rightfully assumes IS the military, to conduct search & siezure on a civilian out in the woods? That's expressly what PCA says not to do. And THAT is why it applies to us, not so it can restict us from flying missions. That's the same thing that gets you when you can stand a line to do crowd control but you can't physically restrain someone from messing with the scene, only document & draw LE attention to it.

Conduct the serach yourself as a LEO and have the CAP female observe

That's the right answer, and what you as a GTL should recommend while advisiong the LEO that you are bound by PCA & can not take part in LE activities while on AFAMs, but you'll do your best to help him out within those parameters.

[lordmonar]

Redacted....that's what you get for not reading the whole thread before replying 

[DNall]

Redacted as well, ref ^

[lordmonar]

What are your orders, Captain Pig?

I would say I can't do it.  And he would have to conduct the search on his own.

Because at this point I am not talking as John Q. Public but as and officer of the CAP on a AFAM mission.  As such I am a federal military asset and I cannot be deputized by him nor can I assist him in his current actions by regulation and federal law.

It is simple as that.  Sorry...can't do it.  (would I help out anyway?  Probable...but the legal answer is to say "can't do it".) 

If life or limb were involved...that would be a different situation.  But in the helping the cop make an arrest at the site....can't do it.

[JohnKachenmeister]

You guys who identified the fact that this was an AFAM and as such we are bound by the PCA get a smiley-face sticker. 

I do NOT think that there would be a PCA violation by having the female Lt. witness the search.

Now.  New situation.

You have been called out pursuant to an MOA with the county EMA to assist in a flood.  You are the GT commander, and you are in contact with an air asset.  The aircraft spots an occupied car on an expressway ramp, trapped by flood waters, which are rising.  The aircraft sees a way you can get to the people and get them out, and directs you to them via the opposite-side ramp.  There is a barrier in the median, so you can't bring the vehicle out, only the occupants.  As you rescue the occupants, you notice that one of them is a famous rock and roll rap country singer, and her entourage.

It is cold, and they are all wet.  You recognize the early signs of hypothermia, and you request an ambulance respond. 

Suddenly, several cars of people pull up and begin taking pictures,  their cars block the only access available to the ambulance.  You ask them to move their cars, and clear the scene, and one says to you:  "Eat (excrement) soldier-boy.  We're gettin' pictures."  You get your excremement-eating soldier boy butt on the radio and call for police.  The cops get there, and the female driver of one of the cars refuses to move for the ambulance.  The policeman arrests her.  Every paparazzi now turns his camera on the cop, and not wanting to grab and grope a female with that many cameras present, asks you to direct your female Lt. to search the arrestee.

Now what are your orders, Captain Excrementeater?

[floridacyclist]

If you were a cop and concerned enough for your safety to require a search of a suspect, would you trust an excrement-eating civillian enough to do it properly?

In the military, we were taught that if a female cop wasn't present, a female witness would suffice.

[Flying Pig]

What are my orders?  Hey cop, grow a set and do your job.  Lt. X.  be a good witness and give the Ofcr your infor for his report. 

And, is threre some law that says I have to search you the second the cuffs go on.  Keep control of her, and take her to a more secure location.

 I could not EVER imagine asking a non law enforcement officer to search anyone.  If that male deputy is reluctant to search a female he needs to turn in his gear.  We are trained for those situations.  I worked Corrections and worked the female floor by myself.  I now work a rural part of the county and dont even have any females on my shift.  Never had an issue.  Having the female observe, sure.  Hey...have the entire ground team observe.  But nobody but another LEO searches the prisoner.   The hippies want it filmed?  Great.  Theres more of a liability in allowing non trained civilians groping your suspect.  And what about training?  What are we taught in the academy? I dont care who searched that person, or if I watched them search that person.  Before I take custody of you, I search you again.  Im not putting my life on the line trusting a CAP senior to search my suspect.  Nor do I want to put that burden on that good intentioned Senior member.  

[Major Lord]

You guys who identified the fact that this was an AFAM and as such we are bound by the PCA get a smiley-face sticker. 

I do NOT think that there would be a PCA violation by having the female Lt. witness the search.

Now.  New situation.

You have been called out pursuant to an MOA with the county EMA to assist in a flood.  You are the GT commander, and you are in contact with an air asset.  The aircraft spots an occupied car on an expressway ramp, trapped by flood waters, which are rising.  The aircraft sees a way you can get to the people and get them out, and directs you to them via the opposite-side ramp.  There is a barrier in the median, so you can't bring the vehicle out, only the occupants.  As you rescue the occupants, you notice that one of them is a famous rock and roll rap country singer, and her entourage.

It is cold, and they are all wet.  You recognize the early signs of hypothermia, and you request an ambulance respond. 

Suddenly, several cars of people pull up and begin taking pictures,  their cars block the only access available to the ambulance.  You ask them to move their cars, and clear the scene, and one says to you:  "Eat (excrement) soldier-boy.  We're gettin' pictures."  You get your excremement-eating soldier boy butt on the radio and call for police.  The cops get there, and the female driver of one of the cars refuses to move for the ambulance.  The policeman arrests her.  Every paparazzi now turns his camera on the cop, and not wanting to grab and grope a female with that many cameras present, asks you to direct your female Lt. to search the arrestee.

Now what are your orders, Captain Excrementeater?

Ha! A trick question! You are still blocked on the bridge because the female is the driver! You are not on an AFAM, so the PCA does not apply ( it does not apply to CAP anyway anyway, strictly speaking) If you are a CAP member searching the arrestee to recover the car keys, you are doing so at the request of a "lawful order" of an emergency services worker, removing an impediment to a bona fide rescue, and not a "police agent". (legally akin to directing traffic or removing hazards to navigation at the direction of the CG or FD) You are an agent of the County pursuant to the MOA. Secondly, the car blocks your retreat, so you may act reasonably and prudently to resist the unlawful detention the hippie,commie beatnik chick has inflicted on you and your associates. (double tapping her is an alternative) Conducting a search incident to arrest is still a bad idea UNLESS you are the one effecting the arrest ( and CAP members may make private citizens arrests, as can any member of the military) Still better to witness than to actually conduct the search. (Better question is who pays for our court time when we get subpoened?) What bedwetting LEO out there is not going to search a suspect incident to an arrest?

Capt. Lord, apparent gourmand de la merde

[Major Lord]

Hey by the way: Fun question!

Capt. Lord

[lordmonar]

I do NOT think that there would be a PCA violation by having the female Lt. witness the search.

Would that not be part of an "arrest" action?

3. Assistance to Law Enforcement Officials. Civil Air Patrol units and CAP members engaged in CAP activities may provide passive assistance to law enforcement officers and agencies. CAP members may not be deputized nor may they take an active part in arrest or detention activities and have no authority to restrict per-sons by means of force, actual or implied.

Searching a suspect is definitely not passive act.  Witnessing a search maybe considered passive, but it is getting really cross to that gray line between passive/active.

Suddenly, several cars of people pull up and begin taking pictures,  their cars block the only access available to the ambulance.  You ask them to move their cars, and clear the scene, and one says to you:  "Eat (excrement) soldier-boy.  We're getting' pictures."  You get your excrement-eating soldier boy butt on the radio and call for police.  The cops get there, and the female driver of one of the cars refuses to move for the ambulance.  The policeman arrests her.  Every paparazzi now turns his camera on the cop, and not wanting to grab and grope a female with that many cameras present, asks you to direct your female Lt. to search the arrestee.

Now what are your orders, Captain Excrement-eater?

I would have to refuse and continue with the rescue operation.  This definitely crosses the line between passive assistance and active.  There is no life or limb situation here, and there is the PR issues.  The cop does not want to be on camera doing his job....the last thing I want is one of my team members doing it.  If that means I would face criminal charges...so be it.  That is the hazards of command.  We often are placed in positions where we have to choose between two bad options.  We often have to make triage assessments and rescue probability assessments.  This is no different.

[Flying Pig]

But what if grasshoppers had machineguns?  Would the birds still #%$& with them?

[Major Lord]

But what if grasshoppers had machineguns?  Would the birds still #%$& with them?

Well grasshoppers don't have opposable thumbs and .....hey, wait a minute, you're being facetious aren't you!

Capt. Lord

( I do support the right to arm bears, but not not grasshoppers-does this make me a specist?)

[Johnny Yuma]

Hopefully the people you allow on GT with you aren't likely to have a heart attack,

The number one cause of line-of-duty deaths in the Fire Department is heart attacks. What makes anyone think we're any better?

Not better so much as not carrying that much weight with limited ability to breath fresh air. Not saying we're immune by any means, but it's no more or less likely than needing to defend yourself, not in my experience anyway.

If a CAP member has a CCW then there is no regulation in CAP that trumps a state CCW permit.

Wanna bet? You wouldn't be breaking the law to violate CAP regs, but don't think that'll protect you from being tossed out of the org. I know people that have carried weapons in their vehicles on GT with the idea that if it gets bad enough they need it then it's worth more than staying in CAP. I wouldn't recommend that though.

Those wacky Air Force SP's are under the impression that my CA CCW is not valid on their base. Where do they get these wild ideas?

Capt. Lord

It's against Federal law to carry on a military installation without the written permission of the Base Commander. Moot point.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I do NOT think that there would be a PCA violation by having the female Lt. witness the search.

Would that not be part of an "arrest" action?

3. Assistance to Law Enforcement Officials. Civil Air Patrol units and CAP members engaged in CAP activities may provide passive assistance to law enforcement officers and agencies. CAP members may not be deputized nor may they take an active part in arrest or detention activities and have no authority to restrict per-sons by means of force, actual or implied.

Searching a suspect is definitely not passive act.  Witnessing a search maybe considered passive, but it is getting really cross to that gray line between passive/active.

Suddenly, several cars of people pull up and begin taking pictures,  their cars block the only access available to the ambulance.  You ask them to move their cars, and clear the scene, and one says to you:  "Eat (excrement) soldier-boy.  We're getting' pictures."  You get your excrement-eating soldier boy butt on the radio and call for police.  The cops get there, and the female driver of one of the cars refuses to move for the ambulance.  The policeman arrests her.  Every paparazzi now turns his camera on the cop, and not wanting to grab and grope a female with that many cameras present, asks you to direct your female Lt. to search the arrestee.

Now what are your orders, Captain Excrement-eater?

I would have to refuse and continue with the rescue operation.  This definitely crosses the line between passive assistance and active.  There is no life or limb situation here, and there is the PR issues.  The cop does not want to be on camera doing his job....the last thing I want is one of my team members doing it.  If that means I would face criminal charges...so be it.  That is the hazards of command.  We often are placed in positions where we have to choose between two bad options.  We often have to make triage assessments and rescue probability assessments.  This is no different.

The officer, in both cases, is interested in avoiding false charges of sexual misconduct.  Women bring them all the time.  Really.

In the case of being on an AFAM, he isn't asking the Lt. to do anything that she would not do anyway... watch the officer make a search.  If the suspect states that the officer acted improperly, he will have a witness, and a probably reliable one, to back up his version of events.

In the second, I would NOT risk criminal charges, nor would I put my Lt. in that position.  (If I won't order it, and the officer ordered the lt. to do so directly, we have BOTh failed to assist police.  I would obey the police order, have my Lt. conduct the search, and report the action through the IC.  Federal Law beats local and state law.  Local and State Law beats corporate regulations and policies.  I'm not going to jail because the NB was too busy writing new uniform regulations to consider the impact of the change in the law taking our USAF status away on other than AFAM's.

[lordmonar]

John I understand where you are coming from and your reasoning (to a point...I won't say that it is lack of activity on part of the NB...but maybe a why waste time on something that is not likely to happen).

Bottom line is that 900-3 gives CAP an out when it comes lawsuit time.  That is if you assist Deputy Johnny Lawenforment and it brings heat on CAP....they can always pass the liability directly on the member by saying he violated regulations.

The thing is...the law enforcement assistance thing works both ways.  The MOU between the CAP and local LE should point out that it would be inappropriate for the LE Officer to even ask for that type of help.  That the LEO acted incorrectly when he was trying to avoid a sexual harassment suit by passing the liability to another agency.   If he does not feel right about executing an arrest because of possible litigation...he should not execute the arrest in the first place.  If the bust is a good bust....he should follow his training in a professional manner and accept the risk of a lawsuit.  If he is doing what he is supposed to do and the way he is supposed to do it...then all is good....it just takes time to prove it.

But that brings us back to CAP.  Even when we are on a corporate assigned mission we do not represent ourselves.  We are NOT private citizens.  Yes that does not allow you to totally disregard police assistance, but it does mean that you are between a rock and a hard place.  You have to please two masters.  So it is a judgment call in the field.  Follow the law or CAPR's.  Your choice.

[Johnny Yuma]

Hopefully the people you allow on GT with you aren't likely to have a heart attack,

The number one cause of line-of-duty deaths in the Fire Department is heart attacks. What makes anyone think we're any better?

Not better so much as not carrying that much weight with limited ability to breath fresh air. Not saying we're immune by any means, but it's no more or less likely than needing to defend yourself, not in my experience anyway.

If a CAP member has a CCW then there is no regulation in CAP that trumps a state CCW permit.

Wanna bet? You wouldn't be breaking the law to violate CAP regs, but don't think that'll protect you from being tossed out of the org. I know people that have carried weapons in their vehicles on GT with the idea that if it gets bad enough they need it then it's worth more than staying in CAP. I wouldn't recommend that though.

CAP, Inc. tosses out people for little or no reason. If they toss me out for defending myself when in fear of my life or for another then then CAP, Inc. has proven they care about no member's life at all.