First Aid Responder

[JohnKachenmeister]

CAP is NOT a paramedical organization.

What are the approved medical protocols for EMT's and paramedics in CAP?  There are none.  That means that EMT's and Paramedicas are simply highly qualified and experienced first aiders.

CAP's cadet program is designed to teach leadership and aviation, not medicine.  While I would certainly NOT discourage a cadet from learning and exploring a career on his own, CAP is not set up to train wannabe doctors.

Hawk Mountain team medic training focuses on first aid for other team members. 

[Ned]

I would imagine, that in the case of CAP being covered vs the individual EMS personnel being covered, that CAP has insurance in place for liability,indemnity, etc. It has a legal department, it has insurance, etc.

Nope. 

And that's the whole point of this discussion.

CAP, Inc. is NOT covered for medical malpractice by its members.  Our general liability insurance specifically excludes medical malpractice, among other things.  And for a very good reason.

You certainly described a vivid situation where juries might tend to find for the plaintiffs in civil actions against CAP and the CAP medic who performed some medical function.  Heck, I'm not a medical professional (I'm just a "lapsed" EMT), so you are probably right.

And that is why medical malpractice insurance that covers CAP, Inc would be so darn expensive.  And as I mentioned above, I suspect it would be literally hundreds of thousands of dollars a year to cover the corporation.

Again, as a CP guy, I would love to have medical folks who could do more than advise and train.

But I'm not prepared to risk the entire cadet program by allowing medics to do anything that might result in a multi-million judgment against the corporation.

So, until we can figure out a way to cover the corporation at a reasonable cost, this discussion is pretty much done.

[SARMedTech]

Ned-

simply because you dont know how a certain obstacle wold be overcome, doesnt mean that the discussion needs to be concluded. The free exchange of ideas is how problems get solved. The membership discussing an idea and talking over possible solutions to it are how things get done. For CAP its really a catch 22---if something happens to a cadet or SM and no medical assistance is available immediately on scene where it should be, CAP is going to get sued and sued big. If there is medical care there and something goes wrong CAP is going to get sued. It is my opinion, however, that when you have volunteers performing missions for the United States Military and there are no provisions made for pre-hospital emergency medical care in the field, you open yourself up far more that you would if you had those folks covered, yourself covered and something were to occur. One of the biggest instances I can thinking of is a severe fall. Without giving medical officers the tools and coverage they need to render care, CAP opens itself wide to a huge liability. They are responsible for the safety of cadets and officers while they are functioning in an official capacity for CAP, and no waiver form signed is going to hold up, I can tell you that from experiece. Nothing that says "I hold CAP, Inc totally and wholely blameless for any injuries or illnesses that I may incur in its service" is going to mean diddly squat in front of a jury. So if its a matter of where would Corporate get slapped around the worst, its by not having provisions for the best possible medical care available to its members. Heck, rock concert venues are required to have EMS standing by as are car races and air shows. Theres not a military operation that would occur anything like what CAP asks its members to do that would not have a medic along in the field. If it hold the line and doesnt make the necessary changes, its only when, not a matter of if, CAP will collapse under the weight of a huge liability lawsuit. A rather silly way to go under after 60 years.

[SARMedTech]

CAP is NOT a paramedical organization.

What are the approved medical protocols for EMT's and paramedics in CAP?  There are none.  That means that EMT's and Paramedicas are simply highly qualified and experienced first aiders.

CAP's cadet program is designed to teach leadership and aviation, not medicine.  While I would certainly NOT discourage a cadet from learning and exploring a career on his own, CAP is not set up to train wannabe doctors.

Hawk Mountain team medic training focuses on first aid for other team members. 

First of all, what HM produces are not truly medics. People who complete the program are not qualified to sit for the board exam of the NREMT which licenses medics and it is doing a disservice by calling people that complete the program medics. They are not. I have looked at the programs. They are training non-licensed first aiders. It takes a minimum of about 150 hours to qualify as an EMT-Basic and a couple thousand hours to be eligible to take the NREMT medic exam. HM is not producing medics.

[Ned]

Ned-

simply because you dont know how a certain obstacle wold be overcome, doesnt mean that the discussion needs to be concluded. The free exchange of ideas is how problems get solved. The membership discussing an idea and talking over possible solutions to it are how things get done. For CAP its really a catch 22---if something happens to a cadet or SM and no medical assistance is available immediately on scene where it should be, CAP is going to get sued and sued big.

Feel free to keep discussing "pie in the sky" scenarios if you wish.  It sure can't hurt anything.

But make no mistake, CAP does not incur any liability for NOT providing medical care.  IOW, the notion that we will somehow be sued for not allowing medics to engage in medical operations simply is not born out by the last 20 years of experience.  For better or worse, there is no significant liability for relying on conventional EMS.

If a cadet falls at encampment and is seriously injured, we render first aid and call 911 just like everyone else in the country. 

Like I said earlier on, this is a fairly simple economic decision.  We could easily go out and buy insurance, but the money has to come from somewhere.  Maybe Uncle Sam will kick down a couple hundred thousand in extra appropriated funds.  Maybe the membership wouldn't object to doubling or tripling of our dues.  Or maybe we could find a place to cut a couple of hundred thousand out of our budget.

But until then, our HSOs are gonna be restricted to providing advice and training.

No matter how much we might wish otherwise.

[JohnKachenmeister]

CAP is NOT a paramedical organization.

What are the approved medical protocols for EMT's and paramedics in CAP?  There are none.  That means that EMT's and Paramedicas are simply highly qualified and experienced first aiders.

CAP's cadet program is designed to teach leadership and aviation, not medicine.  While I would certainly NOT discourage a cadet from learning and exploring a career on his own, CAP is not set up to train wannabe doctors.

Hawk Mountain team medic training focuses on first aid for other team members. 

First of all, what HM produces are not truly medics. People who complete the program are not qualified to sit for the board exam of the NREMT which licenses medics and it is doing a disservice by calling people that complete the program medics. They are not. I have looked at the programs. They are training non-licensed first aiders. It takes a minimum of about 150 hours to qualify as an EMT-Basic and a couple thousand hours to be eligible to take the NREMT medic exam. HM is not producing medics.

I know that.

They are trained to be the primary first aider if a team member goes down.

Look, guy, I'm with you, except that I'm not up on all the latest government rules on emergency medical care.  When I started in the medical thing it was 1967, and I was a Navy hospital corpsman.  The idea of trained medics at emergency scenes was a brilliant new idea pioneered by us guys in the military in Vietnam.  Now, civilian helicopter dustoff is rountine.  In 1968, it did not exist.  In in 67-68, if you were involved in a wreck, there was no extrication, no EMT's, no fluid replacement, there was only an ambulance, operated by the FUNERAL DIRECTOR, who would hire a guy with a Red Cross standard first aid card to drive you to the hospital.

[SARMedTech]

While the inspiration for modern EMS did, in fact, come from the military, particularly during the Korean and VietNamese conflicts, the development of modern EMS in the United States, that is bringing medicine to the scene, was developed by the Department of Transportation and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration in the early 1970's to deal with the increase of fatalities from highway and freeway accidents, particularly in California. Things have changed alot since then. We can and should be providing certain kinds of care, especially to volunteers for the US military that we could not have even imagined then. We have AED's the size of a couple loaves of bread and entire trauma kits that can fit in a duffle bag. All I am saying is that if CAP passes this off as a purely financial issue, it is one of not wanting to spend the money and not of not having it or being able to get it or being able to establish a better line of continuity with the USAF and get the change made. I understand that its not as cheap as carrying a KMart first aide kit in your pack, but dont our members deserve better than that anyway? Folks dont need to keep repeating the expense of it all. But you know where the bulk of the expense for an EMS agency comes from...purchasing and maintaining EMS vehicles and no one can say I ever said I thought that was what should be done. Ive worked with SAR organizations in several states with much smaller budgets than the SAR budget for CAP and they managed to have EMTs for the sake of both their members and the public they were helping. If CAP put half the thought and money into these kinds of efforts as it puts into new uniform development, we just might be able to get this done.

[sarmed1]

I can tell you first hand what the HMRS program teaches and why.   And it was hit hard on the head above, they primarily do care and support for the SAR team.  I can tell you with a high degree of certainty that even though HMRS medics are only at the first aid level of emergency medical care for thier initial level of training, the other parts of the program are the important things that a team in the field needs, none of which are a part of any stock EMT or paramedic program.  I see EMT's come up there all the time, with an extra rucksack full of emergency gear, , yet they cant find you a band aid or an ace wrap.  In over 17 years of SAR experience only a handful of occasions can I remember needing my EMT or paramedic level emergency care skills, and it was usually not in the field, mostly at a base camp setting.  J as an FYI, except in a few states all EMT's Paramedics are unlicensed first aiders, they are only certified,  same as anyone else with a firstaid card, just with a bigger bag of tricks and accountability an accountability to the state.

Also as you may not be aware it is a multi step course, just like the rest  of the Ranger aining trprogram, the course that most people complete is the basic (initial entry course)

Medic Second Class
M2 is the initial qualification for HMRS medics.  They have completed the basic course, hold a Wilderness First Aid Certification and Adult CPR certification.  They primarily operate under the supervision of a Medic 1st class or Senior Ranger Team commander.
They are awarded the Green Scarf and the Green Medic Tab.

Medic First Class
M1's are considered fully qualified medical personnel.  They operate independently with their respective teams.  They have completed an additional year of continuing medical education, advanced SAR skills, and hold Wilderness First Aid or higher certification (First Responder or EMT-B) and Professional Rescuer CPR certification.    They are awarded the Red Scarf and the red Medic Medic Tab.

Senior Medic
Senior medics are considered to be Operational Medical Specialists.  They are qualified to manage medical support operations for CAP SAR/DR missions as part of a single team up thru a multi-agency mission base.  Senior medics also are qualified to manage HMRS medical operations in the absence of a qualified medical officer.  They are 18 years or older and have been M1 for at least 2 years.  They hold EMT-B (or higher) and PHTLS certification.  They are well versed in the following areas: emergency medical care and treatment, general sick call/clinic operations, routine and emergency evacuation procedures, medical mission planning, Incident Command System, Triage/Mass casualty operations, Preventative medicine & field sanitation and hygiene, Search and Rescue Operations and Techniques
They area awarded the Red Senior Medic Tab, and wear the red scarf.

Master Medic
Master medics represent the leadership of the medic program.  They are experienced medical providers usually with years of experience both within the HMRS program and the civilian community.  They hold multiple instructor ratings in the medical field and are responsible for guiding the growth of the medic program.  In addition to filling the same role of the senior medic, they are responsible for the training of the other levels of medic ratings.
They are awarded the Gold/Red Master Medic tab, red pistol belt and wear the red scarf

. 

[SARMedTech]

I can tell you first hand what the HMRS program teaches and why.   And it was hit hard on the head above, they primarily do care and support for the SAR team.  I can tell you with a high degree of certainty that even though HMRS medics are only at the first aid level of emergency medical care for thier initial level of training, the other parts of the program are the important things that a team in the field needs, none of which are a part of any stock EMT or paramedic program.  I see EMT's come up there all the time, with an extra rucksack full of emergency gear, , yet they cant find you a band aid or an ace wrap.  In over 17 years of SAR experience only a handful of occasions can I remember needing my EMT or paramedic level emergency care skills, and it was usually not in the field, mostly at a base camp setting.  J as an FYI, except in a few states all EMT's Paramedics are unlicensed first aiders, they are only certified,  same as anyone else with a firstaid card, just with a bigger bag of tricks and accountability an accountability to the state.

Also as you may not be aware it is a multi step course, just like the rest  of the Ranger aining trprogram, the course that most people complete is the basic (initial entry course)

Medic Second Class
M2 is the initial qualification for HMRS medics.  They have completed the basic course, hold a Wilderness First Aid Certification and Adult CPR certification.  They primarily operate under the supervision of a Medic 1st class or Senior Ranger Team commander.
They are awarded the Green Scarf and the Green Medic Tab.

Medic First Class
M1's are considered fully qualified medical personnel.  They operate independently with their respective teams.  They have completed an additional year of continuing medical education, advanced SAR skills, and hold Wilderness First Aid or higher certification (First Responder or EMT-B) and Professional Rescuer CPR certification.    They are awarded the Red Scarf and the red Medic Medic Tab.

Senior Medic
Senior medics are considered to be Operational Medical Specialists.  They are qualified to manage medical support operations for CAP SAR/DR missions as part of a single team up thru a multi-agency mission base.  Senior medics also are qualified to manage HMRS medical operations in the absence of a qualified medical officer.  They are 18 years or older and have been M1 for at least 2 years.  They hold EMT-B (or higher) and PHTLS certification.  They are well versed in the following areas: emergency medical care and treatment, general sick call/clinic operations, routine and emergency evacuation procedures, medical mission planning, Incident Command System, Triage/Mass casualty operations, Preventative medicine & field sanitation and hygiene, Search and Rescue Operations and Techniques
They area awarded the Red Senior Medic Tab, and wear the red scarf.

Master Medic
Master medics represent the leadership of the medic program.  They are experienced medical providers usually with years of experience both within the HMRS program and the civilian community.  They hold multiple instructor ratings in the medical field and are responsible for guiding the growth of the medic program.  In addition to filling the same role of the senior medic, they are responsible for the training of the other levels of medic ratings.
They are awarded the Gold/Red Master Medic tab, red pistol belt and wear the red scarf

. 

First off, your mixing apples and oranges. Medic in the "civilian" world means Paramedic, with a specific skill set and knowledge base, specific protocols and specific licensure, none of which exist in CAP.

Second, if you have licensed EMTs carrying a ruck sack full of gear and they cant find their first aide gear such and alcohol and band aides, thats someone with pour organizational skills as an individual and someone who should not be in the field as a medical responder.

Its my belief that HMRS should change what they call their so-called certifications to "corpsman." In the real world, outside of exercises, medic is short hand for paramedic which again is someone who holds a license from the state board of health in which he/she is licensed.

I notice that you say that you have 17 years of SAR experience and as has been often pointed out, SAR does NOT equal EMS. A first responder is someone who knows CPR and ultra-basic first aide. They are not trained in triage, assesment other than the ABC's or any other field necessitated medical skill.

Your biggest mistake, which I think demonstrates a lack of knowledge is when you say that EMTs and Paramedics are nothing more than "certified" first aiders with a bigger back of goodies. This clearly points to the fact that you are not familiar with the EMS system.  An EMT has on average 5-6 months of training comprised of 150-200 hours of classroom and clinical time.  A paramedic has between 12-18 months of training covering about 1500 hours of clinical and classroom time. There is no such thing as a "certified" paramedic. The term "certified" in the 21st century has come to mean any who has staid awake long enough to pass a little test a get their certificate. EVERY state in the US requires that Basic, Intermediate and Paramedic level EMTs sit for a at least the state board of health exam to acquire a license, not a certificate. Many states, like my home state of Illinois, also require the National Registry of Emergency Medical Technicians Exam also be taken before that EMT of whatever level can receive his state license.

What HM produces and calls medics are in fact not medics in the real EMS world, nor would they pass as medics in a true military situation. Im seeing 16 year old kids in HM and they are not even old enough to take a class in most states to get a basic EMT license. Before you start throwing around information like saying that EMTs and Paramedics are really just first responders with more toys, you need to know what youre talking about. The EMS profession in the US is overseen by the DOT and NHTSA which together develip and the curriculum and standards for EMTs at all levels working in the field. No EMT can operate in any state without a license as you seem to think. I honestly cannot tell from your posting if you are involved in professional EMS, but if you are, you need to go back and do some refresher work because you are truly misinformed about the education and requirements necessary to work in the field.

Semper Vigilans!

[capchiro]

Since we are defending certifications or licenses or bling or whatever, I just want to hop in and state for the record that EMT and Paramedic training are not equivalent to military medic training and EMT and Paramedics do not have the training nor skills to compete with military qualified medics.  Now, having said that and to get back to the regular discussion, Our job (CAP) is to find and stabilize victims if possible.  Very few of our searches end in injured personnel, they are usually deceased and that is that.  We are to locate them and direct rescue personnel to the site.  Our ground crews are more for search and security than they are for medical treatment.  Just as we don't carry weapons on missions, we also don't carry field surgical gear.  Perhaps one mission in a thousand we might run across a rattle snake that needs killing or we might run across a victim that needs to have their arm amputated prior to the A/C bursting into flame.  That having been said, the liability of said items far outweighs the possible good from them.  the best we can hope for is to train our personnel to stop massive blood loss and prevent shock in the few cases we reach in time and all that requires is basic first aid.  Flame Suit On..

[arajca]

Since we are defending certifications or licenses or bling or whatever, I just want to hop in and state for the record that EMT and Paralegal training are not equivalent to military medic training and EMT and Paralegals do not have the training nor skills to compete with military qualified medics. 

Paralegals!? Who said anything about paralegals? Perhaps you mean ParaGodsmedics?

[capchiro]

OMG..I can't believe that I did that.  I hope I got it modified okay.  Perhaps it was a fraudian slip or something.  I know that the legal profession has as much fun with paralegals as the medical profession does with paramedicals.  I do like both paramedics and paralegals, but sometimes they think they know more than the professionals they work for (and sometimes they do, but not as often as they like to think). 

[Chaplaindon]

Capchiro,

As a recently retired (01JUN07) Paralegal (oops) MEDIC --with nearly 30 years in EMS as paid-professional, volunteer, and instructor-- I wonder why, if as you proffered, "... EMT and Paralegals [sic] do not have the training nor skills to compete with military qualified medics" does the USAF require its PJ candidates to both obtain National Registry EMT-Paramedic certification (and, in so doing, ride out with civilian EMS personnel, principally in Albuquerque) as a part of their training "pipeline"? Why, too, does the USCG certify its Rescue Swimmers to EMT-B level and most of its corpsmen as EMT-P's?

Your assertion seems incongruous to history. EMS (and the EMT-B's and EMT-P's and LPs) had its genesis in a 1966 white paper that compared and disparaged the state of street-medicine to the field medicine in Viet Nam. A wounded person's "chances" of survival were far better in combat in Southeast Asia than in Southeast Birmingham, for example.

The resultant EMS program in the US (and copied worldwide) was based upon military combat medics. Many of the first EMT's and, a bit later, paramedics,  were recently returned Viet Nam combat medics.

Later, as the civilian EMS sphere grew and matured, its certifications were adopted by the military (albeit with some combat-specific, additional skills and techniques). Although, there are number of places in the civilian EMS world that external threats can rival combat ... and without the "additional skills and techniques" for combat nor the safety equipment, e.g. body armor, etc. available to the combat medic.

As to a civilian medic's ability to --as you put it-- "compete" with a military medic, I would ask --also-- compete in what way? I, for one, would put my patient care skills, my assessment skills, etc. up against any military medic's. In fact, I would go so far as to suggest that most civilian medics SHOULD measure up quite well in care-related skills with their military counterparts (whether at the basic life support EMT-B level or the ALS paramedic level).

Likewise, I'd hope (and frankly expect) that comparison extends to other healthcare personnel as well, e.g. MD's, RN's, RRT's, and so forth. I would add to that expectancy, this last fact ... the military regularly sends its MD's to civilian hospitals to stay current on trauma (especially blunt and penetrating) as the civilian world --even in wartime-- sees more of it than the military.

[Chaplaindon]

"I do like both paramedics and paralegals, but sometimes they think they know more than the professionals they work for (and sometimes they do, but not as often as they like to think)." 

... and you KNOW this how?

[capchiro]

Having been both a Army medic and an EMT, I assure you that my skills and training in battlefront medicine were far superior in the military than in EMT training.  A lot, if not most EMT and Paramedics do nothing more than transport sick people to and from places of care.  Some respond to cases of heart attacks and low blood sugar.  Some, but not all work acute injury sites.  Military medics are trained in battle field amputations and the litany of battle field trauma that happens and that require their immediate attention.  In the old days, any military medic was qualified and recognized as a first aid attendant for employment purposes.  Not all first aid attendants were recognized as medics.  Now, If I suffer a traumatic injury, I would rather have a military medic attend me than I would an EMT or Paramedic.  There are levels of care and there are levels of training and having had both, I say, and not in a shy way, the military medic is tops.  Basic Medical Corpsman school used to be over 800 hours of training and then you went to speciality school.  That was back in the days of Nam.  I have heard that it far exceeds that now.  Green Beret medical training was 50 weeks when I was in.  Almost all of this was advanced training.  heart attacks, CPR and low blood sugar were covered and then considered to be learned and most of the time was spent on how to save the life of a wounded comrade, not how to transport someone that weighed 350 pounds with congestive heart failure.  So I have been there and done that and have several advanced certifications and degrees to support me.  However, this is all JMHO.. As usual..

[fyrfitrmedic]

 Don't paint all civilian EMS with the same brush; there's been a great deal of evolution and diversification over the years. It's not all about hauling the 350-pound CHF patient down three flights of steps to the bus anymore...

[Chaplaindon]

The good Colonel has little competition, or equal, in stereotyping and condescension skills.

Oh well, back to the rocking chair and another morning spent recalling  --with fondness-- 29 years of EMS service where apparently I did "... nothing more than transport sick people to and from places of care ... [and] ... respond to cases of heart attacks and low blood sugar," like "most EMT and Paramedics" ... to say nothing of the paralegals!

Way to go, Colonel, you sure KNOW EMS ... amazing!

[SARMedTech]

Since we are defending certifications or licenses or bling or whatever, I just want to hop in and state for the record that EMT and Paramedic training are not equivalent to military medic training and EMT and Paramedics do not have the training nor skills to compete with military qualified medics.  Now, having said that and to get back to the regular discussion, Our job (CAP) is to find and stabilize victims if possible.  Very few of our searches end in injured personnel, they are usually deceased and that is that.  We are to locate them and direct rescue personnel to the site.  Our ground crews are more for search and security than they are for medical treatment.  Just as we don't carry weapons on missions, we also don't carry field surgical gear.  Perhaps one mission in a thousand we might run across a rattle snake that needs killing or we might run across a victim that needs to have their arm amputated prior to the A/C bursting into flame.  That having been said, the liability of said items far outweighs the possible good from them.  the best we can hope for is to train our personnel to stop massive blood loss and prevent shock in the few cases we reach in time and all that requires is basic first aid.  Flame Suit On..

Wow, did you ever completely miss the point...I was pointing out that what HMRS turns out are not medics, either in a military or civilian context.  And if you would rather have a military medic work on your than a civilian EMT or medic, please feel free to hang a tag around your neck next time you are on a SAR or automobile accident so that we dont waste our time working on someone who doesnt want our help. You really cannot compare battlefield emergency medicine with civilian EMS. They are two totally different fields of endeavor and contrary to what you may have been lead to believe, my colleagues and I are trained to treat traumatic injuries in general. If a bone is sticking out where it shouldnt be, it really doesnt matter what caused it, now does it. If a patient, military or civilian has no airway, the procedure is the same. The reason that military medics or corpsman are trained in field amputation is because it is necessary since they may not be able to get that patient back to a CSH in time to keep them from dying. This particular skill is not required in urban EMS since we are usually 10-20 minutes away from a trauma center. And regardless of what you may think or what your ego may say, the job of a medic or EMT, civilian or military is the same...stabilize and transport. Why are heart attacks and cardiac and vascular accidents trained on so much in the civilian world? Because they are the #1 cause of death in the home outside of traumatic injury. The USCG currently takes people through recruit training and then sends them to A school where they are trained as...wait for it...EMT-Basics, as has already been pointed out. That training lasts approximately 6 weeks whereas I had 20 weeks. Working in urban an industrial settings, I have and do treat in the field GSWs, stabbings and person inflicted trauma of all kinds. I also have advanced training in cardiac care. I now work primarily in industrial medicine 6 months of the year near the Arctic Circle where I treat injuries and traumas of all kinds in temperatures of more than -40f. And having been trained by a VietNam era medic, I can tell you that school was not fifty weeks long. There training was fast, dirty and into the field. And, like you, I have two advanced degrees, multiple certifications and more than 160 hours of medical school level training and anatomy and physiology, diagnostics and trauma care and the very first patient I ever rolled on was a chemical burn over 60 per cent of body surface area and the next one was a basilar skull fracture.  But as I say, if you would like to wait for a military medic to come along next time you are out on a SAR, just stick a note around your neck and Im sure we will be glad to move along to treat others. Seeing who can pee farther is hardly productive at all to this conversation. Just out of curiosity, how much time have you spent as a civilian EMS responder?

[capchiro]

As usual , the prominent flamers are the ones with pseudonyms and not their actual signatures, but I digress.  The 50 week school was the green beret special forces medic training and not the standard military medic training.  I made that clear in my post.  I am always amazed at how people get their feelings hurt when they feel challenged.  I also mentioned that not all, but a lot of EMT's and Paramedics, spent their time transporting and carrying for non-life threatening cases.  That being said, I also noted that there are some that handle vehicle and injury cases.  I don't know why the Chaplain, if he actually is one, felt so threatened.  If you are one of the ones that handled nothing but emergency and trauma cases for 29 years, congratulations.  If not, perhaps the shoe fits.  There are a few outstanding EMT's and Paramedics out there.  There are also some 300 pound EMT's trying to transport 350 pound patients.  Pick which group you belong to.  Also, I said I would prefer to be treated by a Military medic.  Let me qualify that, I would prefer not to need treatment and if I do, my first preference would be an Emergency room trauma doctor and then the military medic and then other medics, etc.  I am entitled to my preferences and if you are truly a EMT, you should treat me if I need it.  Now, I am not attacking Hawk Mountain or the program.  I suspect that it is a great program and trains young people to the level they need for our mission.  It probably also helps direct young people into a medical field or profession, which is also what we are about (helping our cadets).  And for Chaplain Don's information, I am an attorney and a doctor, so perhaps I do know what I am talking about.  You don't get to be a gray hair without some experience.  I also passed the national registry for EMT and can tell you that it was not the same as the exit examinations we had to pass in the military.  I don't know why so many people on this board want to attack the military or put it down, especially since so many are military wannabe's.  Perhaps that is why, they just didn't have what it took to serve their country in uniform?  Now, stop with the personal attacks and go lick your wounds.. JMHO

[MIKE]

Lock... To let you guys cool off some.