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Safety vests

Started by vmstan, June 08, 2010, 09:06:13 PM

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davidsinn

Quote from: RiverAux on June 09, 2010, 07:47:28 PM
Quote from: davidsinn on June 09, 2010, 06:31:23 PM
Quote from: wacapgh on June 09, 2010, 06:26:33 PM
"Ref: Safety Beacon  June 2010, Vol 1. No. 1
Safety vests rules have changed. A policy change has been made and a copy of the revised CAPR 62-1 will be out in print for member comment soon. Please note that the requirements of CAPM 39-1 have been superseded."

How can you "superseed" a manual/regulation that begins "COMPLIANCE WITH
THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY. Any variation from this publication is not authorized.
Items not listed in this publication are not authorized for wear."?

???

With an ICL. This is one of the few places I would support an ICL because it is safety and is actually something that will make a difference and is not just a feel good check box.
Exactly, which is why it shouldn't have been put in the newsletter or been distributed out to the membership without an approved ICL being in place first.

It's also not in force yet either. It was a heads-up, here it comes type of thing.
Former CAP Captain
David Sinn

Mustang

Quote from: lordmonar on June 08, 2010, 11:45:46 PM
This at least means they have them available when the need arrises (especially Cadet and Cadet Progra types).
Is this in addition to, or instead of, the required bubble-wrap enclosures for all cadets?
"Amateurs train until they get it right; Professionals train until they cannot get it wrong. "


BTCS1*

For clarification, could someone please let me, and anyone else unsure for that matter, what a vest must be/have to be ANSI class2/3 compliant?
C/2d Lt. B. Garelick, CAP

Spaceman3750

http://www.cssport.com/ansi.htm

Check the bottom of the page for a brief bit.

JC004

Quote from: Mustang on June 09, 2010, 08:51:39 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 08, 2010, 11:45:46 PM
This at least means they have them available when the need arrises (especially Cadet and Cadet Progra types).
Is this in addition to, or instead of, the required bubble-wrap enclosures for all cadets?

:clap:   >:D

Thom

Quote from: Spaceman3750 on June 10, 2010, 05:14:19 AM
http://www.cssport.com/ansi.htm

Check the bottom of the page for a brief bit.

That's a great summary that hits the most important points for CAPers looking to buy vests.  In particular, it makes it clear that the difference (people always ask...) between Class II and Class III is the greater area of coverage of the Class III, and that the Class III covers more than just the torso, it also covers arms or legs or both.  Thus, Class III really aren't vests, they are shirts or jackets (and possibly pants) but not plain old vests.

Just to clear up one other thing some folks may be confused about, the ANSI 107-2004 standard for Vests (and other stuff) was just updated very recently to 107-2010.  The new version has NO substantive changes to the size, color, etc. of garments.  It does talk about flame resistance standards for clothing marked as FR, and longevity of materials for all clothing.  For our purposes, meeting either the old 2004 standard or the brand new 2010 standard are equally effective and legal.

Thom

vmstan

Quote from: Mustang on June 09, 2010, 08:51:39 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 08, 2010, 11:45:46 PM
This at least means they have them available when the need arrises (especially Cadet and Cadet Progra types).
Is this in addition to, or instead of, the required bubble-wrap enclosures for all cadets?

Addition, unless the cadets are over 18, then the bubble wrap is not required.
MICHAEL M STANCLIFT, 1st Lt, CAP
Public Affairs Officer, NCR-KS-055, Heartland Squadron

Quote"I wish to compliment NHQ on this extremely well and clearly written regulation.
This publication once and for all should establish the uniform pattern to be followed
throughout Civil Air Patrol."

1949 Uniform and Insignia Committee comment on CAP Reg 35-4

Phil Hirons, Jr.

So does the orange vest with the CAP seal on the reflective part make the cut? AKA the CAPMART, Vanguard, etc $30 one

davidsinn

Quote from: phirons on June 10, 2010, 04:42:13 PM
So does the orange vest with the CAP seal on the reflective part make the cut? AKA the CAPMART, Vanguard, etc $30 one

Are they marked with an ANSI code?
Former CAP Captain
David Sinn

vmstan

Not on the website. I would like to know from someone who has it though.
MICHAEL M STANCLIFT, 1st Lt, CAP
Public Affairs Officer, NCR-KS-055, Heartland Squadron

Quote"I wish to compliment NHQ on this extremely well and clearly written regulation.
This publication once and for all should establish the uniform pattern to be followed
throughout Civil Air Patrol."

1949 Uniform and Insignia Committee comment on CAP Reg 35-4

JC004

Quote from: phirons on June 10, 2010, 04:42:13 PM
So does the orange vest with the CAP seal on the reflective part make the cut? AKA the CAPMART, Vanguard, etc $30 one

Clearly not if it isn't a Triangle Thingy. 

The seal on the golf shirt is alright though.  Maintain inconsistency. 

wacapgh

Quote from: davidsinn on June 09, 2010, 06:31:23 PM
Quote from: wacapgh on June 09, 2010, 06:26:33 PM
"Ref: Safety Beacon  June 2010, Vol 1. No. 1
Safety vests rules have changed. A policy change has been made and a copy of the revised CAPR 62-1 will be out in print for member comment soon. Please note that the requirements of CAPM 39-1 have been superseded."

How can you "superseed" a manual/regulation that begins "COMPLIANCE WITH
THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY. Any variation from this publication is not authorized.
Items not listed in this publication are not authorized for wear."?

???

With an ICL. This is one of the few places I would support an ICL because it is safety and is actually something that will make a difference and is not just a feel good check box.

That would be the correct way, however we have an example on the books already - 52-16 adding a uniform item (the Cadet First Sergeant Diamond) without the necessary revision to 39-1 to match.

Both would be simple, one-line changes:

CAPM 39-1 is revised as follows

Safety Vest - Will be worn in accordance with CAPR 62-1

Optional - Cadet First Seargent Diamond worn IAW CAPR 52-16

Thom

Quote from: phirons on June 10, 2010, 04:42:13 PM
So does the orange vest with the CAP seal on the reflective part make the cut? AKA the CAPMART, Vanguard, etc $30 one

I do not know for sure, but it APPEARS that the CAP Vests sold by Vanguard are NOT ANSI 107-2004 Class II (or III) compliant.

For starters, 99.9% of the time if a Vest is ANSI certified it will be labeled and marketed as such.

Also, just looking at the photos, I don't believe the CAP Vests have sufficient background material and they certainly look to be a little light on the required reflective material to qualify for the ANSI standards.

This would be a good thing to bring up with the Vanguard folks, give them plenty of time to burn through existing stock (which while it may not meet the exact Legal requirements is certainly quite visible and should be safe...) and plenty of time to bring in new ANSI approved and CAP labeled Vests before the CAP deadline.

Thom

isuhawkeye

Before we start bashing vguard or selling a non compliant vest make sure yourealize that this product has been in our inventory since the days of the CAP book store.  They may be still selling product from an order a decade ago. 

vmstan

I emailed Vanguard to find out, I'll let you know if/when they reply.
MICHAEL M STANCLIFT, 1st Lt, CAP
Public Affairs Officer, NCR-KS-055, Heartland Squadron

Quote"I wish to compliment NHQ on this extremely well and clearly written regulation.
This publication once and for all should establish the uniform pattern to be followed
throughout Civil Air Patrol."

1949 Uniform and Insignia Committee comment on CAP Reg 35-4

High Speed Low Drag

While the vests are good, I can see the implementation going over the top.  Here is the article from the Safety Beacon:

Safety Vests
Safety vests rules have changed. A policy change has been made and a copy of the revised CAPR 62-1 will be out in print for member comment soon. Please note that the requirements of CAPM39-1 have been superseded. Here are the requirements:
To be compliant with Federal Regulations, it is now required for CAP members to wear ANSI Class 2 or Class 3 safety vests or apparel if they are going to be or if there is a chance members may perform duties within the vicinity of federal-aid roadways. For the military style uniforms, only ANSI-approved vests are authorized. For the corporate uniform, members may wear ANSI-approved apparel such as insulated vests, jackets, winter coats, o rain gear, as an option. For other activities that will not be in the vicinity of federal-aid roadways, all safety vests must have reflectivity applied to them. While safety vests do not have to meet the ANSI standard, again, reflectivity is required. For all apparel items other than safety vests, ANSI compliance must be met regardless of the activity. This policy also requires the wear of the safety vest or safety apparel by all CAP members when performing ground functions. Examples include, but are not limited to: all ground functions of emergency services, road guards around formation movements of CAP members, performing volunteer activities near any location where motorized vehicles operate, including flight line support, and at night when walking during any ground activity, other than to and from personal vehicles at the beginning and ending of CAP functions.
The color of safety vests and apparel can be either orange or lime green. White/grey reflective striping is preferred and in wooded operations, orange vests or orange apparel with reflectivity is highly recommended as a U.S. standard color of human existence in hunting areas. By October 1, 2012, all safety vests and apparel will be required to be ANSI compliant for all CAP activities


Cadet CQ to Encampment Commander:
"Sir - Need to report 125 cadets and 20 senior members who did not wear their safety vests as they walked from the shower building back to their barracks last night."

Cadets at a museum in service blues:
"Alright, I want all of you to put on your safety vests before we exit the building and into the parking lot."
"But Sir, the vest snags my ribbons and rips them off"
"I don't care, cadet! That's better than not being seen by all motorists in the parking lot as you are getting in the van. Who wants to stop at McDonalds on the way home?"
"I do" "Me too"
"Great. You can take your vests off as soon as you get inside the McDonalds."

This has the potential to go horribly wrong unless there is some commen sense in application.

A side note - also from the Safety Beacon:

Saftey Situations followed by the recommendation of NHQ Safety

Cadet gathering firewood had a branch strike him in the eye. Eye scratched.
(Wearing protective eyewear that can be worn during all activities in the woods is recommended. Clear lenses for night and the color of your choice during the day.)
Cadet jumping over fence slipped and pitched forward hyperextending elbow. Surgery required to repair injury.
(Judgment – Just don't do it.)
Cadet finger cut by a paperclip connected to a paper airplane while launching the aircraft connected to a rubber band.
(This one penetrated the finger of the cadet. It was suggested that the proper procedure was not followed.)
Cadet had an asthma attack.
(Conditions of asthma work on trigger and it is important for all pre-existing medical conditions to be disclosed to ensure exposure to "triggers" can be minimized or removed.)


Where does this nonsense end? Safety is important but ... Are we going to reach the day we are forced to use flourscent orange bubble wrap on the cadets before we allow them to step foot inside any CAP activity?

I can just imagine what NHQ would have to say about this:

Cadet standing in an open field, cloudy but clear. Chunk of blue ice falls from aircraft flying overhead at 30,000' and bumps cadet on the head, cadet falls to the ground with a concusion.
G. St. Pierre                             

"WIWAC, we marched 5 miles every meeting, uphill both ways!!"

Spaceman3750

Sir, 2.5 out of those 4 you listed are actually valid concerns. The one about the cadet jumping the fence is certainly a problem and eye protection in the woods is a good idea unless you are wearing glasses which will help keep things out of your eyes.

And the one about the asthma attack is very important. For example, on a ground team you definitely want your leader to know of your condition and where your EpiPen (assuming you are carrying one with you, which you should if you are asthmatic) is located in the event you do have an attack.

isuhawkeye

Not trying to derail the discussion

Spaceman-
     Epi Pens are not generally proscribed for asthma by itself.  They are a treatment for anaphylaxis which is caused by a severe allergic reaction not an asthma attack

I say this because I am a health care provider who has asthma.  there is a lot of confusion about the disease. 

High Speed Low Drag

#38
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on June 11, 2010, 06:47:41 PM
Sir, 2.5 out of those 4 you listed are actually valid concerns. The one about the cadet jumping the fence is certainly a problem and eye protection in the woods is a good idea unless you are wearing glasses which will help keep things out of your eyes.

And the one about the asthma attack is very important. For example, on a ground team you definitely want your leader to know of your condition and where your EpiPen (assuming you are carrying one with you, which you should if you are asthmatic) is located in the event you do have an attack.

Here is the point -
1.  The theme of the responses are that all accidents are preventable - and they are if you wrap yourself in bubble wrap.  But common sense has to prevail.  A more common sense appraoch would be to say "As part of safety briefing, remind participants to use caution while in the woods.  Pay specific attention to limb strikes, tripping hazards, and insect/snake bites."  Telling everyone to wear goggles is, in my opinion, silly.

2.  Asthma - yes a real concern.  Your team leader should know where you carry your rescue inhaler (or diabetic supplies, or whatever health concern).  But to say to minimize or eliminate exposure to "triggers" is not common sense.  Instead say that it is the responsibilty of the person to be aware of triggers and if entering an environment where they might be, to take measures (dust mask, non-rescue inhaler, etc) to prevent possible attack.

3.  Rubber band on an airplane - really??

4.  Jumping a fence - happens all the time.  But again - instead of saying "don't do it" a quick "OK, we have to go over the fence.  Go slow and watch your hand / foot placement.  Climb the fence, don't jump it."
G. St. Pierre                             

"WIWAC, we marched 5 miles every meeting, uphill both ways!!"

Spaceman3750

Quote from: isuhawkeye on June 11, 2010, 06:56:55 PM
Not trying to derail the discussion

Spaceman-
     Epi Pens are not generally proscribed for asthma by itself.  They are a treatment for anaphylaxis which is caused by a severe allergic reaction not an asthma attack

I say this because I am a health care provider who has asthma.  there is a lot of confusion about the disease.

Yeah, sorry, you're right. I meant emergency inhaler, but EpiPen was the first thing that came to mind for some reason. My younger brother had both severe allergies and asthma as a kid so both terms were equally likely to bubble to the top.