The drama's over...it's time to move on

[Psicorp]

I am afraid that it is Annikan being resurrected once again.  The Sith are nearly immortal, and when you think you are rid of them, there they come in a new bionic suit.

Yep,  Sith happens.

[LtCol White]

But despite his repentence in the end, he still died. 

[Skyray]

But despite his repentence in the end, he still died. 

Did they let him keep his stars?

[Flying Pig]

When your the past National Commander, do you drop down to 1 star or do you keep 2 stars?

[Skyray]

Bowling, Dwight Wheless and MG Harwell all are refered to as Major General, and I postulated that they kept two stars.

[mikeylikey]

I think you keep the stars.

[ColonelJack]

I think you keep the stars.

I would have thought one kept both stars if you served the full term as CC.  But then I remembered that Gen. Wheless didn't complete even the first year of his term, and he kept the twin stars.  (We won't talk about Gen. Harwell's keeping the two stars, even though he gave them to himself.)

So I suppose once you get 'em, you keep 'em.  I don't recall reading any provisions in the regs for that -- like the one that says the CV doesn't get to keep the star even on completion of a full term (or terms) -- once they're no longer CV, they go back to being a colonel.  That would suck, especially after purchasing and/or modifying their uniforms to reflect general officer status (new braid, triple farts 'n darts, etc.).

Or did I read it incorrectly?

Jack

[Pumbaa]

I beg to differ the problems within the organization are exactly what we are talking about,
I for one Have given hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars in lost work time, flying over 150
hours on missions and SAREXs. To clam up and act as if we don't have problem is not what
being a citizen volunteer is all about.

There have been many great comments made in this thread.  The one above sums it up for me.

Changed code tags to quote tags - MIKE

[Skyray]

Although I have been as guilty as anyone, we need to quit taking cheap shots.  General Harwell was awarded two stars by the board for exemplary service.  He did not "give them to himself."  The Air Force objected, because the board had ignored the provision in the Regulations that the Air Force controlled the General officer ranks in the CAP and the board was ultra vires with its award.  I don't see anyone commenting that Bowling awarded himself two stars, although he got his the same way that Gene Harwell did.  For my money, everyone between Harwell and Bowling should get a retroactive award of two stars.  You have seen one of those players extensively in this conference, Rich Anderson.  Who is going to stand up and tell me that he doesn't deserve at least as much recognition as Pineda?

[ColonelJack]

Thank you for clearing that up for me, Doug, regarding General Harwell's promotion.  He was a good CC, to my recollection.

I stand corrected.

Jack

[Skyray]

Thank you for clearing that up for me, Doug, regarding General Harwell's promotion.  He was a good CC, to my recollection.

I stand corrected.

Jack

It is a common misconception, and was one of the "catch phrases" that the enemies of Harwell propogated against him.  I was a major and a lieutenant colonel at the time, and fairly heavily involved in National politics.  It is interesting to me that the guy who dissed Harwell the worst, Rick Bowling, later emulated him and got two stars himself.  Politics is strange.  I agree that Harwell was a good CC, although I seem to remember some fine tuning on the uniform during his reign.  And of course the Air Force irritation with him and the board got us cranberry shoulder boards and then gray shoulder boards.  I wasn't talking about that.  Wasn't Harwell the one that moved the name tags to the other side?  I was just looking in my ribbon box, and I have black name tags with rank, gray name tags with rank, blue name tags without rank, and lord knows what else.  Don't them guys doing the changes appreciate what these things cost?  I must have a couple of hundred dollars worth of rank and name tags alone.

[ColonelJack]

I wondered for a while why Gen. Barry, who took over as CC after Harwell's term, didn't get a second star himself.  Then the regs were changed to remove all references to the grade of major general, and it was clear to me.

That said, I wouldn't have a problem with every CC going back to Harwell getting a second star.  Barry was entitled to one under regs of the day, but he didn't take it because Harwell's made the AF mad.  Then Anderson, who -- if ever a CC deserved a second star -- should have one.  I can't say for sure about Bergman (though he didn't deserve what did happen to him), and maybe Bobick, but I don't know.

What do you think?

Jack

[wingnut]

I beg to differ the problems within the organization are exactly what we are talking about,
I for one Have given hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars in lost work time, flying over 150
hours on missions and SAREXs. To clam up and act as if we don't have problem is not what
being a citizen volunteer is all about.

There have been many great comments made in this thread.  The one above sums it up for me.

Changed code tags to quote tags - MIKE


Well thanks Mike I will fly with you anytime. I have Just one question. . .  would Darth Vader really had been burned so bad if he had his NOMEX flight suit on? I mean in the Lava thing and all

[mikeylikey]

I am not so sure I can go along with the reasoning for the berry boards.  There had to be MORE to the story.  Perhaps a CAP member trying to pass himself/ herself off as an AF Officer.

[Skyray]

I am not so sure I can go along with the reasoning for the berry boards.  There had to be MORE to the story.  Perhaps a CAP member trying to pass himself/ herself off as an AF Officer.

There is a lot going on in this thread.  Along about the same time as these other things we are talking about, we had a CAP Captain here in Miami that assumed the rank of General because he was the Headmaster (Owner) of Florida Air Academy, a private military school for boys.  Everything would have been fine if he had just stayed on the school grounds, but he decided to use his CAP exchange privilege and do some shopping at Homestead Air Force Base (Yes, it was that long ago).  As he passed the gate, the gate sentry was presented with the phenomenon of an unfamiliar unannounced general officer coming aboard, and in the Air Force that means only one thing--a surprise IG inspection.  It resounded loudly, and the repercussions went all the way to General Barry.  Combined with the Air Force's pique over Major General Harwell's extra star, we are lucky that we had shoulder boards at all, but they did turn cranberry.  General Barry, and everyone down to Rick Bowling, discretely decided to not push for a second star.  Bowling pushed, and luckily the Air Force had calmed down enough that he didn't get us thrown out in the cold.  Barry had the helm during the Hurricane Andrew recovery, and I saw a lot of him down here.  He, however, did not travel with a press corps and what he did, he did quietly.  I think he clearly deserves a second star.  Anderson consolidated the gains and put us on a path to glory, and Bergman was well on his way to making Anderson's improvements permanent, when Rick Bowling decided he was in the way and started a whisper campaign against him.  After the Bowling conspiracy succeeded in torpedoing Bergman,  poor Bobick was like Bill Clinton with a republican congress, except Bobick's congress was named Bowling.  Even so, Bobick did an acceptable job against incredible opposition.  I would give the second star to every one of them except the one that got it, Bowling.  He did more damage with Pineda than he could ever overcome.  Make no bones about it, Anthony Jesus is a creature of Bowling's, no matter who signed the message suspending him.

[SAR-EMT1]

I think you keep the stars.

I would have thought one kept both stars if you served the full term as CC.  But then I remembered that Gen. Wheless didn't complete even the first year of his term, and he kept the twin stars.  (We won't talk about Gen. Harwell's keeping the two stars, even though he gave them to himself.)

So I suppose once you get 'em, you keep 'em.  I don't recall reading any provisions in the regs for that -- like the one that says the CV doesn't get to keep the star even on completion of a full term (or terms) -- once they're no longer CV, they go back to being a colonel.  That would suck, especially after purchasing and/or modifying their uniforms to reflect general officer status (new braid, triple farts 'n darts, etc.).

Or did I read it incorrectly?

Jack

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that the National Vice Commander reverts back to Colonel when all is said and done? What kind of crap is this?

[JC004]

I think you keep the stars.

I would have thought one kept both stars if you served the full term as CC.  But then I remembered that Gen. Wheless didn't complete even the first year of his term, and he kept the twin stars.  (We won't talk about Gen. Harwell's keeping the two stars, even though he gave them to himself.)

So I suppose once you get 'em, you keep 'em.  I don't recall reading any provisions in the regs for that -- like the one that says the CV doesn't get to keep the star even on completion of a full term (or terms) -- once they're no longer CV, they go back to being a colonel.  That would suck, especially after purchasing and/or modifying their uniforms to reflect general officer status (new braid, triple farts 'n darts, etc.).

Or did I read it incorrectly?

Jack

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that the National Vice Commander reverts back to Colonel when all is said and done? What kind of crap is this?

March National Board:

2. ITEM: Change to CAPR 35-5 (Grade of National Vice Commander)
COL VESSELLA/RI MOVED AND COL JENSEN/CT SECONDED that the National
Board votes to amend the language of CAPR 35-5, regarding the grade of National
Vice Commander changing paragraph 5.b. by striking the word "temporary" and
the language requiring that the National Vice Commander revert to the grade of
colonel at the end of the term. The proposed language in paragraph 5.b. be
changed to read as follows: "The grade of Brigadier General is a grade reserved
for members who serve as National Vice Commander, CAP, after 1 December
2002. Promotion to this grade is concurrent with election to the position by the
National Board and concurrence of the Chief of Staff, United States Air Force.
Individuals serving in the position of Vice Commander prior to 3 Mar 07 are not
eligible for the grade of Brigadier General and will retain the permanent grade of
Colonel." This change will require concurrence of the Air Force.
BRIG GEN COURTER/CV MOVED TO AMEND that the proposal be effective after
the close of the August 2007 National Board meeting with the election of the next
Vice Commander.
Motion died for lack of a second.
The National Commander expressed a desire that the motion be effective on 3 Mar 07,
with strong affirmative concurrence by the National Board.
MOTION CARRIED WITH NO DISSENTING VOTES
FOLLOW-ON ACTION. Request Air Force concurrence and when appropriate change
CAPR 35-5, paragraph 5.b.

[mikeylikey]

^ How can a motion fail, then all of a sudden pass?  I have noticed alot of TP items that failed seem to pass after he chimed in and brought it back to the floor.  I think the Vice should keep the star by the way!

[Skyray]

^ How can a motion fail, then all of a sudden pass?  I have noticed alot of TP items that failed seem to pass after he chimed in and brought it back to the floor.  I think the Vice should keep the star by the way!

The National Vice's motion to amend the motion so that it did not apply to her failed, and the Board pretty unanimously told her that they wanted it to apply to her by not seconding her motion to amend.  Then the motion itself was passed.  She keeps her star, no matter what happens.

[Smokey]

I don't believe Bowling awarded himself the second star.  As I recall seeing on both the AF website and CAP that based on our fine showing on/after 11 Sept 2001 and that they anticipated a growing use for CAP by the AF, they chose to bump up the Natl CC to Major General and the Natl CV to a one star.