Color Guard

[mrg]

What high school principle?

No one asking for color guard support is going to know or care about the fact that there are cadet officers in the mix.
I guarantee if they ask for help, they would be happy to have seniors members do it if they looked sharp.

The "mission" is getting the job done.   There are always preferences and "best" in terms of the situation, and when you can't meet "best",
as long as there is no regulation prohibiting the function, and it fills the need, you do what you have to in order to get things done.

In this case, having cadet officers post the colors is infinity better than telling the requester "no" because of some misguided adherence to
"tradition"

If you read the original question, you'll see that the high school Principal (as in the woman/man in charge of the school) asked the C/2d Lt for a color guard to post colors for the National Anthem at a soccer game. That's the "principal" I'm referring to and I also said that if the cadet has the resources, i.e. color guard that follows regs, than use them. Also, this is not a "misguided" adherence but following of the drill & ceremonies manual. In no way did this cadets say that they do not have a resources available (NCO's/Airmen in color guard) just that the high school principal asked him/her to participate since they're a student.

If you can do it the right way, than do present the Color's according to D&C. NCO's aren't lowly people that are not worthy of presenting colors. Stop creating nonsensical arguments and read the manuals.

Also, I added links to resources that dictate how an Officer can be involved in these ceremonies for the cadets reference. That way they can be involved the right way. The C/2d Lt can march along side (several paces away, the manuals state how far) and give the commands to the color guard for posting color's. That way the C/2d Lt is involved the RIGHT way and everyone wins. You never who's in the audience that is why you should do things the right way regardless of whether or not the school officials understand color guard procedures, so use some integrity. Yes, INTEGRITY. They may not care but we should.

[lordmonar]

Uh
the very first two words of that reg cite are

"when practical"

The words "when practical" imply having two NCO's as flag bearers and two airmen as guards. However, the mix of the color guard could be all NCO's or 3 airmen with one NCO being the flag bearer for the American flag. In other words, regardless of the mix, the perfect situation would be to have the most senior NCO's bearing the flag. This does mean that if you don't have the perfect mix of two NCO's and two airmen, an Officer can step in.

Color Guard is traditionally an NCO and Enlisted type of detail. The military DOES NOT use Officers for Honor Guard or Color Guard. Civil Air Patrol is an auxiliary of the Air Force so respect their traditions or don't wear the uniform. This is not a "Competition" only rule.

If it is a case of "well we can't do a color guard because we only have 3 enlisted and 1 officer who know how to do it" then do it. 
Mission comes first.  This does not mean you should allow such a condition to last for more then a few days.  I personally don't let my officers perform.....but I would not cancel a performance if one of my guardsman dropped out and the only one available was an officer.

YMMV.

[Майор Хаткевич]

snip

Please don't quote me CAPP 52-8. I learned all of that by heart at Honor Guard Academy six years ago, but especially since CAP Honor Guard is largely made up of C/Officers.

Nothing in CAP prohibits C/Officers from participating on Color Guard activities. It is encouraged that C/NCOs and C/Airmen are the typical Color Guard (which, by the way has nothing to do with CAP Honor Guards), but most likely because it creates the initiative to have the C/Officers instruct, while newer cadets get the change to participate.

[mrg]

"7.32.1.1. The carrying of the US and Air Force flags is an honor bestowed only on responsible
NCOs. When possible, flagbearers and guards who have had experience in this function should be
selected. If experienced personnel are not available, those selected should be thoroughly trained in
the manual of the Colors (paragraph 7.33.) and made fully aware of the honor of their duty."

There is a difference between a Color Guard and an Honor Guard. The Color Guard is the unit of persons bearing the national colors usually with two armed persons. An Honor Guard are the escort guards at either a funeral or a visiting dignitary. This is why there are Officers in an Honor Guard. However, there is a section in 52-8 that talks about the carrying of Color's and also several points where it says that we defer to AFM 36-2203 in regards to drill & ceremonies and the carrying of color's.

Also, don't misread the above section in regards "if experienced personnel". According to several USAF Honor Guard and Color Guard members, you select other NCO's or Airmen and train them in the manual of Colors.

Again, this isn't a situation where the person doesn't have the available personnel just the the high school principal expressed a preference. The C/2d Lt can still be involved the right way.

[Eclipse]

You're quoting regs and other docs applicable to formal situations, competitions, and the formation of structured teams.

This principle wants someone in a uniform to carry the flag from the back to the front.  He could not begin to know the different
or care regarding the NCO / Officer question in this context.

There's a difference, when you get that, you'll get the argument.

Stop using arguments about "integrity", etc., they have no place in this discussion, especially when your inference is that somehow using
C/Officers to post colors is a violation of ethics or an afront to national pride.  The opportunity for a cadet to make CAP, himself, and the school look
good, while honoring the flag, outweighs any misguided adherence to regs not meant for the situation.

[lordmonar]

And for the record.

The CAP Honor Guard Program is NOT.....I SAY AGAIN....NOT the same a color guard.  Honor Guard is a wing level activity.

So for local operations....don't even look at CAPP 52-8.

AFAM 36-2203 is the source document....and by extention the Army FM 3-21.5 (for the manual of arms and detailed color guard drill procedures).

[Майор Хаткевич]

CAP HG is completely different from a unit Color Guard. Including a number of drill movements. We're not talking Air Force, because we're not, and that's not how the program runs.

Unfortunately there is no specific guidance in CAP on who can perform on Color Guard (not an Honor Guard). Until there is, the program will be run locally as best as it can be.

I view this the same as the issue of the C/Commander position. C/NCOs are common as Squadron C/CCs, yet that's not how the AF would do it. We're running a cadet program, which follows Air Force customs/tradition/procedure to an extent. We do not mirror them.

[mrg]

I also said there is a difference between the Color Guard and Honor Guard.

Eclipse- The AFM 36-2203 dictates the manual of arms for a Color Guard in ALL situations. The event being discussed is not a squadron meeting but a school event in front of an audience while the National Anthem is being played. That is formal and manual of arms applies. Also, I was using "integrity" in terms of your response of they don't know so they won't care. Integrity applies to everything, it's one of core values. It wasn't meant to imply that the C/2d Lt's participation would be unethical or an affront to national pride but that if you can do it the right way, than do it the right way. This AGAIN is not an issue of the lack of the right personnel but one preference.

And there is specific guidance as to how to who can perform on a Color Guard for CAP, its called AFM 36-2203. On CAP's website and in other manuals, pamphlets, etc, it says we use for AFM 36-2203. How much explicit can it be?

Civil Air Patrol follows USAF customs & courtesies. Follows means adherence or practices. We don't follow every USAF procedures, we have our own regs that are parallels of USAF regs but there are some we follow. In this case, that's AFM 36-2203.

[mrg]

Sorry for the grammatical errors, I was in a hurry. Have a great day everyone!

[Майор Хаткевич]

Following that logic, why is our Honor Guard run completely differently from what the Air Force does?

Our cadets are not Airment, NCOs, or Officers. They are cadets. The public in general doesn't know the difference. The Air Force in specific probably would consider this a silly issue.


A note though, I wonder (Not that it impacts CAP), if AFJROTC has something that outlines this for them? What about AFROTC?

[davidsinn]

I also said there is a difference between the Color Guard and Honor Guard.

Eclipse- The AFM 36-2203 dictates the manual of arms for a Color Guard in ALL situations. The event being discussed is not a squadron meeting but a school event in front of an audience while the National Anthem is being played. That is formal and manual of arms applies. Also, I was using "integrity" in terms of your response of they don't know so they won't care. Integrity applies to everything, it's one of core values. It wasn't meant to imply that the C/2d Lt's participation would be unethical or an affront to national pride but that if you can do it the right way, than do it the right way. This AGAIN is not an issue of the lack of the right personnel but one preference.

And there is specific guidance as to how to who can perform on a Color Guard for CAP, its called AFM 36-2203. On CAP's website and in other manuals, pamphlets, etc, it says we use for AFM 36-2203. How much explicit can it be?

Civil Air Patrol follows USAF customs & courtesies. Follows means adherence or practices. We don't follow every USAF procedures, we have our own regs that are parallels of USAF regs but there are some we follow. In this case, that's AFM 36-2203.

By your logic you could use a SM NCO but not a Cadet officer. That's dumb. A cadet is a cadet. The enlisted only color guard does not work for us because the AF does not promote chiefs to be Lts like we do.

[Eclipse]

KB Answer 821.

I was once told that cadet officers are prohibited from serving on a color guard. Is this information correct?

The regulations do not prohibit cadet officers from participating in a local color guard, but they are prohibited from participating in the national color guard competition. A color guard team will ideally consist of two cadet airmen (the guards) and two cadet NCOs (the flag bearers). Cadets being processed for their Mitchell Award and cadet officers are not permitted to participate in the NCC. Regions or wings also may have supplements or policies which could restrict cadet officer participation in color guards. Check with your wing and/or region.

See National Cadet Competition

Chapter 2 - National Cadet Color Guard Competition
2-1. GENERAL
a. The NCC will use the CAP Drill and Ceremonies Manual; CAPR 900-2, Use and Display of the United States Flag and Civil Air Patrol Flags; publications listed in Attachment 2, and the attachments to this regulation as the basis of the NCGC. Judges will use these publications and attachments as a basis for scoring the NCGC. All scores will be annotated using the National Cadet Color Guard Competition score sheets (see Attachment 3).
b. Each color guard team is limited to four primary cadets and one alternate cadet. The alternate is there to replace a primary member who is unable to compete for any reason. The alternate may not replace a primary who is able to compete. The color guard will consist of two flag bearers and two guards. All cadets must be listed on the Monthly Membership Listing prior to the competition.
c. A team will ideally consist of two cadet airmen (the guards) and two cadet NCOs (the flag bearers). Cadets being processed for their Mitchell Award and cadet officers are not permitted to participate in this competition.

Asked and answered. We're done here.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Well then...

[mrg]

Goodness, this is reaching the point of absurdity. The reason why CAPM 52-4 (NCC) doesn't allow for cadet officers to participate on the Color Guard is because of AFM 36-2203. Also, CAPP 52-8 is similar to the USAF HG Manual but we have a separate manual because we are not allowed to fire weapons or use rifles with live ammunition as they are permitted. Even then, Honor Guard and Color Guard are different.

But do what you want : )

A decent amount CAP members have a knack for doing what they want which is why there have been more and more complaints from USAF personnel not wanting us to be associated with them.

Oh and the comment of according to my logic, your response doesn't make sense. If the AFM 36-2203 didn't apply to us than why does CAP tell us to use it for drill & ceremonies? If your applying the guidelines of AFM 36-2203 to a cadet color guard, then you could easily find enlisted ranks (i.e. C/Airmen through C/CMSgt) equivalencies to present the Color's.

Anyway, have a great day and have a color guard of all Officers if you want. If it is so important for you to have an Color Guard of only Officers, knock yourself out : )

[jimmydeanno]

Goodness, this is reaching the point of absurdity. The reason why CAPM 52-4 (NCC) doesn't allow for cadet officers to participate on the Color Guard is because of AFM 36-2203.

Or it could be the fact that C/Officers should be past the "small team leadership" aspect of the Cadet Program and being on a Color Guard team does little to expand their "strategic leadership skills."

[Eclipse]

A decent amount CAP members have a knack for doing what they want which is why there have been more and more complaints from USAF personnel not wanting us to be associated with them.

You're going to hurt yourself reaching that far to try and connect this with any USAF relationship issues.

Oh and the comment of according to my logic, your response doesn't make sense. If the AFM 36-2203 didn't apply to us than why does CAP tell us to use it for drill & ceremonies? If your applying the guidelines of AFM 36-2203 to a cadet color guard, then you could easily find enlisted ranks (i.e. C/Airmen through C/CMSgt) equivalencies to present the Color's.

The manual is provided as guidance, since in most circumstances it is appropriate to CAP, and there is no reason to reinvent the wheel.
That does not make it regulatory over CAP in all circumstances, any more than 36-2903, which is a similar circumstance.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Now you're just trolling.

"The regulations do not prohibit cadet officers from participating in a local color guard"

Say it with me:

"The regulations do not prohibit cadet officers from participating in a local color guard"

[davidsinn]

Goodness, this is reaching the point of absurdity. The reason why CAPM 52-4 (NCC) doesn't allow for cadet officers to participate on the Color Guard is because of AFM 36-2203.

Or it could be the fact that C/Officers should be past the "small team leadership" aspect of the Cadet Program and being on a Color Guard team does little to expand their "strategic leadership skills."

Not everything has to be about expanding leadership skills. Somethings can just be about being fun. Or getting it done.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Goodness, this is reaching the point of absurdity. The reason why CAPM 52-4 (NCC) doesn't allow for cadet officers to participate on the Color Guard is because of AFM 36-2203.

Or it could be the fact that C/Officers should be past the "small team leadership" aspect of the Cadet Program and being on a Color Guard team does little to expand their "strategic leadership skills."

Not everything has to be about expanding leadership skills. Somethings can just be about being fun. Or getting it done.

I always considered Color Guard to be a good "Pressure/Stress" experience. More so as a C/Officer as any mistakes were on you. Sometimes performing under pressure builds more "leadership" skill than a leadership exercise.   

[shlebz]

i kind of feel bad for asking the question now....
by the way, i did participate in the color guard and it went over very well.