Retired General Officers in CAP

[JayT]

  Real Military Rank TRUMPS CAP rank each and every time.  Sorry folks!

Got a reg cite for that?

[mikeylikey]

  Real Military Rank TRUMPS CAP rank each and every time.  Sorry folks!

Got a reg cite for that?

Federal Law.  Common Sense.  US CODE.  Civics class.  Any and all CAP regulations realting to customs and courtesies.   

A Federal Military Officer is appointed by the President and Confirmed by the Senate.  Were you confirmed by the Senate when you became a CAP FO?  That's what I thought. 

Also, that is why they allow Military Officers (other than COLONEL and higher) to come into CAP at their Military Rank.  I don't think CAP Officers can enter the military at advanced rank based on CAP rank. 

(So I don't get bashed, yes I understand CAP and the Military are very different cultures, and rank between the two is not equal)

[Hawk200]

I don't think anyone  would consider adressing a general as "Col" or "Hey You" for that matter.  But, if your about to, call me first.  I want a front row seat for the show.  

I think you missed a few points along this thread. The discussion was concerning members that were former general grade officers, and the discontinuity of receiving only LTC (officially) in CAP.

[FW]

I'm sorry, my tongue was in my cheek when I posted the last comment. (Just couldn't help it.)
Now back to subject.
IMHO, CAP grade and the grade of any other service or related organization has absolutely nothing to do with each other.  There is no regulation saying a Capt. in the AF will become a Capt. in CAP, etc.  The regs just say it can happen.  As for generals or Cols., for that matter, they can stay without CAP grade if it bothers them.  Not 1 general officer (ret. or active) I've spoken with over the years never never had a problem with this issue (and that includes 1 4star).  So.  if it's not broke.....

[Hawk200]

I'm sorry, my tongue was in my cheek when I posted the last comment. (Just couldn't help it.)
Now back to subject.
IMHO, CAP grade and the grade of any other service or related organization has absolutely nothing to do with each other.  There is no regulation saying a Capt. in the AF will become a Capt. in CAP, etc.  The regs just say it can happen.  As for generals or Cols., for that matter, they can stay without CAP grade if it bothers them.  Not 1 general officer (ret. or active) I've spoken with over the years never never had a problem with this issue (and that includes 1 4star).  So.  if it's not broke.....

We each have our opinions on the subject. Since there is no actual guidance, then it is only opinion. If we had a former retired general (with more than two stars) take over National, I wouldn't see any issue with that person wearing a rank equivalent to what they last wore in the military. Then again, it's pretty unlikely such a thing would actually happen.

When it comes to the chain of command, having flag grades from former military service could be considered an issue in lower than National level posts. I've met a few former full birds in squadrons, and they didn't have any issue with it that they mentioned.

As for correlation, there is little, as our program is rather different than the military. However, CAP recognizes their contributions by permitting the rank carryover. Some may never have joined if their prior military rank was not recognized. I know for a fact that not all have an issue with it, as I have a member in my own unit that is a retired ArNG colonel (full bird, I think, but he's never been really specific), and is perfectly content in progressing through the CAP side. He's a good ol' boy that's more concerned with getting the job done.

[DNall]

I appreciate humble officers that are more concerned with the tactical job than being worried about grade. The original point was about capturing some of those higher ranking mil officers who aren't maybe as humble & who may or may not want to step back down to the Sq level. We were discussing bringing them in at the full mil grade with them assigned to an advisory Sq attached to BoG or NHQ & with the purpose of advocating for CAP within the military/political structure. Having that versus not having that is a no brainer. The price of letting them keep their grade is a small one for that gain & we shouldn't be so prideful to be unwilling to pay it. That's my opinion.

[Hawk200]

The price of letting them keep their grade is a small one for that gain & we shouldn't be so prideful to be unwilling to pay it.

This is tongue in cheek, but there is an irony to no monetary pay involved. Not like it comes out of the budget or anything. Whether we give a military officer 2LT or MGen, it's not like it comes out of our budget.

Beginning to think that there is no real harm to allowing it.

[DNall]

just pride. But, when paychecks consist of a lot of zeros with nothing in front, there tends to be a lot of false pride floating around. You wouldn't, in my experience, find people in the real mil acting like that. they respect pay & rank, but they respect getting the job done well a whole lot more. They aren't compensated in pride alone, not false pride in lieu of a paycheck anyway.

[FW]

they respect pay & rank, but they respect getting the job done well a whole lot more. They aren't compensated in pride alone, not false pride in lieu of a paycheck anyway.

That's what I'm talkn' about.

[afgeo4]

Now, that is a good question.  They, as all the members of the BoG, are to serve the best interests of CAP.   After all, it is the Board of Governors who govern it.  The NEC and NB are advisory bodies to the BoG and have authority to make regulatory policy.  The BoG, however, has the authority to overrule the NEC or NB and change the constitution and bylaws.

How do y'all feel about addressing someone "LtCol", when you know they're really a "LtGen"?

I believe a retired military officer shall forever hold the rank he/she retired at and don't we have to call them according to their rank as per customs and courtesies?

I don't know if I could stomach calling them less than what they've earned.

I don't think anyone  would consider adressing a general as "Col" or "Hey You" for that matter.  But, if your about to, call me first.  I want a front row seat for the show. 

Well... let's see... a CAP Colonel (full bird) or higher could address them as LtCol. It can also be said when calling out their name... as in on a list or to present an award or something like that. I understand that our grade isn't at all the same as "their" rank, but it kinda sorta is. We ARE the Air Force auxiliary, not some random non-profit.

[Dragoon]

The similarities are that we use the same insignia and titles.  That's about where it ends.

Their grade generally denotes level of responsibility and authority.

Our rank generally designates CAP staff training and/or special skills CAP needs.  Plus the highest grades designate service (or previous service) at the Corporate level.

Almost completely different criteria from our brethren.

(as an aside, we had a related issue with a former member who was a squadron commander.  Seems he had been a 0-5 in some foreign air force.  He was only a CAP captain but demanded that his people call him "Colonel."  I can understand his pride, but it really didn't help things any.  It also didn't help that he took no steps to complete any CAP PD so that he could actually earn CAP 0-5.)

I understand the value in stroking a General's ego if he can help us.  Heck, I understand the value in stroking a Staff Sergeant's ego if he can help us.  But I remain a fan of giving rank to the people in charge, not to the underlings who want the CAP grade but don't want to take on the responsiblities of appropriate CAP leadership and staff jobs.

Very soon I'll be one of those guys who's RM grade will have surpassed his CAP grade - probably forever.  But I'm cool with that.  Give the bennies to the guys who do the hard work.

Now, if a well connected General wanted to join CAP specifically to work as a liaison to the military, or the guard or something, then the stars would help.  But if he's just joining to fly our planes, or support his cadet grandson, there's really no need to give the Wing CC someone else to salute, IMHO.

[ddelaney103]

I don't think anyone  would consider adressing a general as "Col" or "Hey You" for that matter.  But, if your about to, call me first.  I want a front row seat for the show. 

I addressed an O-7 as "Senior Member."

One Wing Conference, they decided to reward Encampment Staff, one of which was a AF Brig Gen.  The General was a CAP member but never took CAP grade.  He either wore a blazer (with his star and "USAF Ret." on the nametag) or his AF uniform around CAP.

The orders, however, said "Senior Member X," so I called him up as "Senior Member."  Didn't get struck by lightning or anything...

[DNall]

Again, it's not the general officers we do have that either don't care or find their own ways to deal with it. It's the general officers we don't have & do need. It's a very small price to pay, especially when it's free, to get something worthwhile in return.

The similarities are that we use the same insignia and titles.  That's about where it ends.

Their grade generally denotes level of responsibility and authority.

Our rank generally designates CAP staff training and/or special skills CAP needs.  Plus the highest grades designate service (or previous service) at the Corporate level.

Almost completely different criteria from our brethren.

(as an aside, we had a related issue with a former member who was a squadron commander.  Seems he had been a 0-5 in some foreign air force.  He was only a CAP captain but demanded that his people call him "Colonel."  I can understand his pride, but it really didn't help things any.  It also didn't help that he took no steps to complete any CAP PD so that he could actually earn CAP 0-5.)

I understand the value in stroking a General's ego if he can help us.  Heck, I understand the value in stroking a Staff Sergeant's ego if he can help us.  But I remain a fan of giving rank to the people in charge, not to the underlings who want the CAP grade but don't want to take on the responsiblities of appropriate CAP leadership and staff jobs.

Very soon I'll be one of those guys who's RM grade will have surpassed his CAP grade - probably forever.  But I'm cool with that.  Give the bennies to the guys who do the hard work.

Now, if a well connected General wanted to join CAP specifically to work as a liaison to the military, or the guard or something, then the stars would help.  But if he's just joining to fly our planes, or support his cadet grandson, there's really no need to give the Wing CC someone else to salute, IMHO.

In practice, a lot of that is true. However, grade is supposed to equate to authority in CAP. You aren't supposed to put a Capt in charge of a Sq when there's a LtCol there. You aren't supposed to promote someone to a grade they aren't able to lead at, regardless if they've completed the minimum requirements listed in the reg. And, you are required to follow orders according to rank structure (which means grade outside an org chart) or your are supposed to face stiff disciplinary action according to regs.

Just because CAP doesn't do what it's supposed to be doing according to its own rules doesn't mean it's right to go along with the common practice.

[RiverAux]

However, grade is supposed to equate to authority in CAP. You aren't supposed to put a Capt in charge of a Sq when there's a LtCol there.

Who says?  Certainly not the regulations that apply to our organization. 

[Short Field]

Rank in the CAP is reflective of Professional Development and certain unique skills.

[ddelaney103]

Rank in the CAP is reflective of Professional Development and certain unique skills.

No, grade is simply a reflection of your perceived worth to CAP.

The higher you work your way up the CAP PD ladder, the more grade they figure you're worth.

If you bring a desired skill (pilot, A&P, doctor, RM officer) they're willing to give you advanced grade.

If you hold an important position, such as unit commander, they give you grade.

The two important things are: they don't give grade out the same way the RM gives it out and it means nothing in terms of who has authority in any given situation.

They do look the same, though.

[afgeo4]

Rank in the CAP is reflective of Professional Development and certain unique skills.

No, grade is simply a reflection of your perceived worth to CAP.

The higher you work your way up the CAP PD ladder, the more grade they figure you're worth.

If you bring a desired skill (pilot, A&P, doctor, RM officer) they're willing to give you advanced grade.

If you hold an important position, such as unit commander, they give you grade.

The two important things are: they don't give grade out the same way the RM gives it out and it means nothing in terms of who has authority in any given situation.

They do look the same, though.

They also sound the same, get treated the same way by custom, and they work to denote a person's seniority (most of the time) in the same way (yes, a Col is always more senior to a 1st Lt)

[ddelaney103]

Rank in the CAP is reflective of Professional Development and certain unique skills.

No, grade is simply a reflection of your perceived worth to CAP.

The higher you work your way up the CAP PD ladder, the more grade they figure you're worth.

If you bring a desired skill (pilot, A&P, doctor, RM officer) they're willing to give you advanced grade.

If you hold an important position, such as unit commander, they give you grade.

The two important things are: they don't give grade out the same way the RM gives it out and it means nothing in terms of who has authority in any given situation.

They do look the same, though.

They also sound the same, get treated the same way by custom, and they work to denote a person's seniority (most of the time) in the same way (yes, a Col is always more senior to a 1st Lt)

Oooh, "seniority"...and besides who gets in a car first and who walks on the right, what does "seniority" mean in CAP?

Two words:  AUTHORITY and RESPONSIBILITY.  Military grade has it - CAP grade doesn't.  That's why their grade is real and ours is costume jewelry.

If the 2nd Lt is the sqdn cc, she tells everyone else in her sqdn what to do, even if it's full of former wing commanders.  If they don't, she can bring them up on insubordination.  A Col acting insubordinate to a 2nd Lt?  That's messed up like a soup sandwich.

[mikeylikey]

The two important things are: they don't give grade out the same way the RM gives it out and it means nothing in terms of who has authority in any given situation.

Really?  In the Military, an Officer moves from 2nd Lt (2LT) to 1st Lt (1LT) simply because of "time served".  You have to have done something SO "jacked up" not to be promoted to 1st LT.  Now, when being promoted to Capt, then there are some "other requirements". 

I agree with you that CAP rank means nothing about authority.  It is positional authority.  I am a strong proponent to getting that change.  But that is not a popular idea, as most of our members I fear would never move up, as there would not be enough "slots" for everyone.

[afgeo4]

The two important things are: they don't give grade out the same way the RM gives it out and it means nothing in terms of who has authority in any given situation.

Really?  In the Military, an Officer moves from 2nd Lt (2LT) to 1st Lt (1LT) simply because of "time served".  You have to have done something SO "jacked up" not to be promoted to 1st LT.  Now, when being promoted to Capt, then there are some "other requirements". 

I agree with you that CAP rank means nothing about authority.  It is positional authority.  I am a strong proponent to getting that change.  But that is not a popular idea, as most of our members I fear would never move up, as there would not be enough "slots" for everyone.

I can't speak for all branches, but in the Air Force and Army, the requirements to move from O-1 to O-2 and from O-2 to O-3 are time in grade. USAF has 2 years for each promotion. Army now requires 18 months for at least combat arms MOS'. However, satisfactory performance at current grade and passing the PFT are requirements as well. Remember, all officers undergo regular evaluations and if those evaluations aren't passed, no promotion is authorized. That is considered a major problem for an officer because they are professionals, as in they're paid to be competent.

We have promotion standards as well. They also include professional development (CAP version of PME) and satisfactory performance. I would be much happier if we had SDAs for senior members too, but we don't, so what is "satisfactory" usually remains completely subjective and up to the commander. In fact, the commander doesn't have to write down any reason for denial of promotion. To me, that's unsatisfactory leadership, but that's what goes on. We aren't professionals.

Also, don't forget that our senior members don't receive proper leadership instruction. Instead, they receive operational and staff instruction. Aside from the SOS, which is an Air Force course, there is no clear cut leadership training. The SLS and CLC provide an overview of the organization. The UCC provides instruction on how to run a unit. AFIADL 13 provides a tiny chapter on extremely basic concepts of leadership, but no actual training in it. Higher PD courses provide training on doctrine, strategic planning, and responsible execution of CAP missions. I guess we assume that leadership will be learned by osmosis, through observing current commanders, but if none is taught to anyone then what can we learn by observation aside from lack of knowledge.