future CAP OCP uniform: blue name tapes w/ camo pattern rank?

[NIN]

it no longer has an arm pocket for the mini nametape.

Not that the mini-nametapes were ever authorized...



 

[Shuman 14]

Not that the mini-nametapes were ever authorized...

Clearly an oversite by the last Regulation Update Team. 

[culpeper]

Oh for crying out loud.  Just go with the blue BDU and make it easy.

[Shuman 14]

Oh for crying out loud.  Just go with the blue BDU and make it easy.

I would tend to agree but as was pointed out in a previous thread, having everyone in BBDU could have us confused for some type of Law Enforcement Agency and it could affect recruiting as part of the draw for CAP for both Cadets and some Seniors is the ability to wear an USAF-style uniform.

I don't know what the answer is. Again, in another thread it was suggested that CAP should adopt an OCP-style uniform, in cut and style, but in olive drab color. Using all the silver-grey on blue tapes, rank tab and full color patches and flag currently used on ABUs. Military enough to still have the recruiting draw but different enough from the USAF and Law Enforcement so not to be confused for either.

My vote is we wait for OCPs. Army, Air Force, Space Force, ROTC, JROTC, AFROTC, and AFJROTC have all completed their transition to OCPs. Still trying to understand why we're still in ABUs.

[supertigerCH]

embroidered cadet enlisted insignia

They might be cheaper in the long run and less likely to get damaged on a field uniform.

Possibly cheaper, but a WHOLE lot less convenient. We had sew-on rank WIWAC, and it was a real pain, even considering the less frequent promotion intervals. The sewing jobs were inconsistent, and positioning was hit and miss.

On top of that, the sew-on stripes weren't as reusable as the pin-on rank. Once sewn on, washed a few times, and given an ironed-in crease, they weren't easily removed and reused on another cadet's uniform.

I think you're think of something different. I believe the discussion of embroidered cadet stripes is they are embroidered on a fabric square with a velcro backing to put on the OCP tab for grade insignia, like the military does, not sew-on the sleeves.

Belated follow up but I just found these, USAF JROTC Rank on OCP.

Not the same as CAP Cadet Rank, but showing it can be easily done, once we move OCPs.

Full color on OCP patch or Blue patch, either will look fine and in pairs, one for the OCP top and one an outer coat.

Very good visual... of what is possible. 

CAP may (or may not) one day decide to do something like this.   However, this is an excellent example... of what types of things can fairly easily be done. 

Thanks Shuman 14. 

[ProdigalJim]

Just as a reference point when we talk about affordability and accessibility of uniform items in relation to this potential change...I did a search using current prices. Vanguard black boots today are as much as $20 more than DLATS boots. And ABUs are increasingly hard to find commercially anywhere *except* Vanguard.

A complete male OCP uniform, using DLATS components from AAFES, would cost $292.47. A complete Vanguard ABU uniform today is $346.30. If you go to commercial sources for OCPs, it's considerably more expensive than AAFES (which is unsurprising): $69.99 for the shirt/coat, and $69.99 for the pants, compared with $41.91 for the AAFES male shirt/coat and $39.49 for the female shirt/coat. If you choose Vanguard for all the components of your golf shirt uniform (shirt, pants, black fleece for cold weather, and boots), that's roughly $51 cheaper than a full ABU kit, but not exactly cheap at $295.35.

Although this thread is about OCPs, it's worth talking about prices on other uniforms. Where it really gets breathtaking is when buying USAF-style blues. Vanguard wants $64.80 for the long-sleeved uniform shirt, versus $28.75 for the DLATS version at AAFES. You can go out and buy them commercially for $49.99 (still $14.81 cheaper than Vanguard). Female blues trousers are $37.00 through AAFES and $66.30 through Vanguard. Commercially I found them for $49.99.

Blues covers are also much more expensive, although here Vanguard beats other online commercial sources. AAFES will sell me a flight cap for $13.75; the same item on Vanguard is $10.10 more at $23.85, and $29.99 commercially.

That simple blue web belt with a silver buckle? AAFES wants $4.18 -- Vanguard is close to six times more expensive, at $25. Commercially that same belt is $19.19.

Overall, Vanguard's USAF Blues Uniform for males is $98.33 more than you could get at AAFES, and for females Vanguard is $109.01 more than AAFES. Compared with commercially available blues components, Vanguard beats other suppliers for male uniforms -- by $42.75 for a full kit with a short-sleeved shirt, and by $36.15 for a long-sleeved version -- but commercial suppliers other than Vanguard are better for female blues uniforms, with Vanguard $20.65 more than commercial for a complete female set with short sleeves.

My takeaways from shopping day today? 1 - If we had decent, non-roadblocked access to AAFES, OCPs would be as much as $53.83 cheaper than the present Vanguard-only ABU uniform for a full set, and Blues would be about $100 cheaper depending on gender, and; 2 - our leadership really should work much harder on knocking down the barriers to members using AAFES to buy appropriate uniform items. (And I'm uninterested in all the reasons why it's hard. Yes, it's hard. I know it's hard. And I know all the reasons why it's hard. So what? It's not impossible, just hard.)

[Shuman 14]

Just as a reference point when we talk about affordability and accessibility of uniform items in relation to this potential change...I did a search using current prices. Vanguard black boots today are as much as $20 more than DLATS boots. And ABUs are increasingly hard to find commercially anywhere *except* Vanguard.

A complete male OCP uniform, using DLATS components from AAFES, would cost $292.47. A complete Vanguard ABU uniform today is $346.30. If you go to commercial sources for OCPs, it's considerably more expensive than AAFES (which is unsurprising): $69.99 for the shirt/coat, and $69.99 for the pants, compared with $41.91 for the AAFES male shirt/coat and $39.49 for the female shirt/coat. If you choose Vanguard for all the components of your golf shirt uniform (shirt, pants, black fleece for cold weather, and boots), that's roughly $51 cheaper than a full ABU kit, but not exactly cheap at $295.35.

Although this thread is about OCPs, it's worth talking about prices on other uniforms. Where it really gets breathtaking is when buying USAF-style blues. Vanguard wants $64.80 for the long-sleeved uniform shirt, versus $28.75 for the DLATS version at AAFES. You can go out and buy them commercially for $49.99 (still $14.81 cheaper than Vanguard). Female blues trousers are $37.00 through AAFES and $66.30 through Vanguard. Commercially I found them for $49.99.

Blues covers are also much more expensive, although here Vanguard beats other online commercial sources. AAFES will sell me a flight cap for $13.75; the same item on Vanguard is $10.10 more at $23.85, and $29.99 commercially.

That simple blue web belt with a silver buckle? AAFES wants $4.18 -- Vanguard is close to six times more expensive, at $25. Commercially that same belt is $19.19.

Overall, Vanguard's USAF Blues Uniform for males is $98.33 more than you could get at AAFES, and for females Vanguard is $109.01 more than AAFES. Compared with commercially available blues components, Vanguard beats other suppliers for male uniforms -- by $42.75 for a full kit with a short-sleeved shirt, and by $36.15 for a long-sleeved version -- but commercial suppliers other than Vanguard are better for female blues uniforms, with Vanguard $20.65 more than commercial for a complete female set with short sleeves.

My takeaways from shopping day today? 1 - If we had decent, non-roadblocked access to AAFES, OCPs would be as much as $53.83 cheaper than the present Vanguard-only ABU uniform for a full set, and Blues would be about $100 cheaper depending on gender, and; 2 - our leadership really should work much harder on knocking down the barriers to members using AAFES to buy appropriate uniform items. (And I'm uninterested in all the reasons why it's hard. Yes, it's hard. I know it's hard. And I know all the reasons why it's hard. So what? It's not impossible, just hard.)

Thank you, Sir!!!!

[NIN]

Just as a reference point when we talk about affordability and accessibility of uniform items in relation to this potential change...I did a search using current prices. Vanguard black boots today are as much as $20 more than DLATS boots. And ABUs are increasingly hard to find commercially anywhere *except* Vanguard.

<snippage happens here>

Speedy, you're talking my lingo.

Unfortunately for Vanguard, they have no access to the DLATs "issue" grade shirts and instead have to resell the "commerical upgrade" shirts (ie. Brooks Brothers) that are also sold thru AAFES. And they have a markup, because, you know, they're a business and do need to make a profit.  They don't buy as many shirts as AAFES, so they don't get the super good discount from the vendor to pass along.

This is a long time, ongoing issue as BRAC was a thing and USAF bases disappeared in states. Suddenly its hundreds of miles instead of dozens of miles to get to an AAFES. Even if you can get on base.

[Shuman 14]

Speedy, you're talking my lingo.

Unfortunately for Vanguard, they have no access to the DLATs "issue" grade shirts and instead have to resell the "commerical upgrade" shirts (ie. Brooks Brothers) that are also sold thru AAFES. And they have a markup, because, you know, they're a business and do need to make a profit.  They don't buy as many shirts as AAFES, so they don't get the super good discount from the vendor to pass along.

This is a long time, ongoing issue as BRAC was a thing and USAF bases disappeared in states. Suddenly its hundreds of miles instead of dozens of miles to get to an AAFES. Even if you can get on base.

Well, the Coast Guard, and the Coast Guard Auxiliary seemed to have figured it out. Now their version of the AAFES, the Uniform Distrobusion Center, will accept orders directly from an Auxiliarist and ship straight to their home of record, and you never have to set foot on a base.

You just have to be a currently serving Auxiliarist with an active "Employee Identification Number", the USCGAux's version of the CAPID and off you go. You can order and pay for any uniform item authorized for use by the USCGAux. Clearly, they won't let you buy a set of 4-Star USCG Admiral's Shoulder Boards, but standard uniforms, boots, shoes, etc. you can buy all day.

Something similar should be able to be set up with AAFES. Again, that word, hard, but not impossible.

[SierraOneThree]

Well, the Coast Guard, and the Coast Guard Auxiliary seemed to have figured it out. Now their version of the AAFES, the Uniform Distrobusion Center, will accept orders directly from an Auxiliarist and ship straight to their home of record, and you never have to set foot on a base.

You just have to be a currently serving Auxiliarist with an active "Employee Identification Number", the USCGAux's version of the CAPID and off you go. You can order and pay for any uniform item authorized for use by the USCGAux. Clearly, they won't let you buy a set of 4-Star USCG Admiral's Shoulder Boards, but standard uniforms, boots, shoes, etc. you can buy all day.

Something similar should be able to be set up with AAFES. Again, that word, hard, but not impossible.

CGAUX ID card gets you on base (theoretically) just as a normal DODID would.

Theoretically. But you'll run into that one E3 or E6 who just doesn't know any better and get held up.

[Fubar]

You just have to be a currently serving Auxiliarist with an active "Employee Identification Number", the USCGAux's version of the CAPID and off you go.

Perhaps RiverAux can chime in, but perhaps this is because the USCG Aux is an actual part of the Coast Guard while the Civil Air Patrol Inc. is a not-for-profit corporation that is in no way "part" of the Air Force. Affiliated, sure, but not a part of.

Something similar should be able to be set up with AAFES. Again, that word, hard, but not impossible.

You're talking about getting at least two, if not three separate bureaucracies (which we have zero influence over) to change their processes for no benefit to them. That may in fact be the definition of impossible.

[Shuman 14]

You're talking about getting at least two, if not three separate bureaucracies (which we have zero influence over) to change their processes for no benefit to them. That may in fact be the definition of impossible

I assume your three are CAP, USAF and AAFES?

CAP and USAF would see the benefits quickly.

AAFES would see an increase in sales.

It's not that hard.

AAFES works for the Army and Air Force, they will do what the Services tell them to do.

The simplest way forward is to come with a way for a AAFES to have limited access to CAP eServices so they can verify current CAP membership status.

So we set up a CAP only 1+800 order number at AAFES. CAP member calls, Customer Service verifies their status, and the CAP member can then order general uniform pieces (i.e. OCP tops, bottoms, hats, boots, brown t-shirts, OCP cold/wet weather coats, etc.) and Blue Service and Blue Mess uniform pieces. No USAF rank insignia, badges or anything the USAF says CAP members can't purchase. Customer Service takes the order, takes the CAP members' credit/debit card info and the order is shipped.

Or automate the system with a special AAFES/CAP only website in which the Member's status is verified and the things that CAP can buy are the only things offered on the site, so no General's 4-Star Shoulder boards or Silver Star Medals will be offered but all the uniform pieces will be.

Then go to Vanguard and order the CAP only insignia and awards.

Vanguard can continue to sell the bling going forward and any uniform pieces they still have in stock until exhausted.

I can come up with the plan in ten minutes sitting in front of my computer, surely the Feild Grade Officers at CAP and the USAF and the front office management at AAFES can make it work.

[Stonewall]

Remember, like 17 years ago, when I proposed one uniform for all? Those were good times.

Check it out. [darn], I think there's a few people in that thread that we uncovered as phonies and/or are in jail now. And of course, a couple may be RIP.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I remember that thread. Was a nice throwback to the pre-BDU era too. 

[Paul Creed III]

Maybe fewer uniforms would mean more would wear them correctly?

Yeah, I'll show myself out now.

[Shuman 14]

Remember, like 17 years ago, when I proposed one uniform for all? Those were good times.

Check it out. [darn], I think there's a few people in that thread that we uncovered as phonies and/or are in jail now. And of course, a couple may be RIP.

Hey, thanks Stonewall, it was you I was referencing in my 31MAY24 Post about an OD Uniform.

[SARDOC]

I like the all blue BDU concept some have proposed.  But I'd say go a step further because there are so many commercially available options that we can make our own.   There are those who say go back to the OD's too.  That's a great option.  Mix it up a bit maybe.  OD Green top, Blue trousers so that we are a little more identifiable and distinctive.  It doesn't have to be BDU style either. they make Green shirts/BDU Blouses there are many different combinations depending on your mission.   

We need something that we have a little more control over and can make changes without all the regulatory hurdles around the USAF style uniforms.  That being said, this is for utility/work uniforms only.  I think to stick to our heritage and roots our dress uniform should still be the USAF Blues. 

[biomed441]

We need something that we have a little more control over and can make changes without all the regulatory hurdles around the USAF style uniforms.  That being said, this is for utility/work uniforms only.  I think to stick to our heritage and roots our dress uniform should still be the USAF Blues. 

Agreed. I understand both sides of the argument on OCP or do our own thing etc.. and at risk of beating a horse that is nothing but bones at this point, I lean more and more to doing our own thing when it comes to utility.  Not only should we be considering practicality, but also interoperability.  Anecdotal but I have had partner agencies say how weird it is that we have people showing up in different uniforms. They get confused if we are all one organization.  One entertaining yet eye opening conversation was explaining what CAP is to a fire department chief during a joint exercise as we were using their facility for Mission Base and staging. He asked if the people in ABUs were Air Force Auxiliary and the polos shirts and BBDU folks were CAP.  Great opportunity to explain more about CAP and its history etc.. but also let me see how CAP is being viewed from a lens outside the organization.  Should other organizations dictate our uniforms? No, but i think a bit more uniformity in our..... uniforms could go a long way in how we present ourselves to agencies.

It sounds like OCPs are on the move and just awaiting the powers for final approval and an implementation schedule.  I wont complain about that either.  Whatever works.  I think overall I'd just like to see us all in 1 utility uniform. Whatever that looks like.  If thats OCPs awesome, if not... as long as its professional and comfortable I'm game.

[HandsomeWalt_USMC]

This was posted by a CAP-USAF DAF Civilian on another forum today with the caption "My CAP opposite numbers got approved for OCP uniform this week! (kind of aviation related)" BIG if true!



Edit: I don't know why the image isn't appearing but here is a link to the thread: https://www.airwarriors.com/community/threads/random-griz-aviation-musings.46266/page-281#post-1130328

[Shuman 14]

I don't know why the image isn't appearing

It's because the image is password protected on the forum you are trying to link to.

Might be better if you download the image, save it and re-post it here.