Should customs/courtesies and uniform wear be enforced?

[Short Field]

Being a unit with nothing but flying missions, what need do they have for blues or even BDU's?

Maybe demonstrating they belong to CAP instead of a flying club???   CAPM 39-1 para 1-5 states that:  " Members will equip themselves with the basic uniform ."  This is defined in para 1-5a & b.  Para 1-5a is the light blue shirt, blue trousers combo and para 1-5b is the white aviator shirt and gray trousers combo.  I know, just another inconvenent regulation to ignore....   

[Hawk200]

Being a unit with nothing but flying missions, what need do they have for blues or even BDU's?

Maybe demonstrating they belong to CAP instead of a flying club???   CAPM 39-1 para 1-5 states that:  " Members will equip themselves with the basic uniform ."  This is defined in para 1-5a & b.  Para 1-5a is the light blue shirt, blue trousers combo and para 1-5b is the white aviator shirt and gray trousers combo.  I know, just another inconvenent regulation to ignore....   

How suitable are blues for flight operations? The setting was regular meetings where flight is their mission. It discussed nothing else. Right tool for the right job.

[SarDragon]

Thankfully, the Mexican party shirt died a glorious death about 15 years ago.

1 July 1997, to be exact.

[Short Field]

I know, just another inconvenent regulation to ignore....   

[Always Ready]

Being a unit with nothing but flying missions, what need do they have for blues or even BDU's?

Maybe demonstrating they belong to CAP instead of a flying club???   CAPM 39-1 para 1-5 states that:  " Members will equip themselves with the basic uniform ."  This is defined in para 1-5a & b.  Para 1-5a is the light blue shirt, blue trousers combo and para 1-5b is the white aviator shirt and gray trousers combo.  I know, just another inconvenent regulation to ignore....   

Sadly too many units are this way. I transferred to my current squadron from a squadron where ALL of the SMs wore Blues/Corporate Equivalent on Blues nights, BDUs/BBDUs on BDU nights, and they still managed to wear some sort of uniform on PT nights. Here, 90% of the SMs don't own anything other than the polo (and yes that 90% are pilots with two exceptions). Out of the other 10%, one only owns the Blazer combo and the polo. The rest of us have at least Blues (or Corporate Equivalent) and BDUs (or BBDUs). I've only seen the DCC in the polo or civies during the six months that I've been here. Out of the SMs, only the Squadron Commander and I exchange salutes on a regular basis. Several of these members are prior military too. Everybody is on first name terms, except myself and a Cadet Sponsor Member whom I'm required (per his wife the 2d Lt) to call him Mr. *his last name* but he can call me by just my first or last name. Everyone else gets to call him by his first name.  I hate being 20.

What is sad is the cadets have, or are gaining, a similar mentality. I must admit that the cadets are *usually* good about saying "yes sir" and "no sir", but I can count the number of times I've been saluted properly on one hand. Passing each other outside I will get a "How's it goin' sir?!" and no salute. When I try to correct the cadets, they suggest I read the regs before correcting them *facepalm* When these sort of arguments happen in front of the SQ/CC, he listens to their defense and then says I am right. Then nothing else is said about it or done about it until I bring it up again and the mentality has yet to change. It's not that I want to salute...I avoid situations where I have to salute or being saluted at all possible, but after two years as a Cadet (C/2d LT) and now two years as a SM, I think I deserve a little more respect than to be told "Go read the regs before you correct me." What happened to the good ole C&C class for EVERYBODY?

[Climbnsink]

I wonder who the hardcore uniform/salute folks are? Seems the RM folks are more laid back about that stuff than the NonRM.  Which begs the question what do you CAPmember want out of the organization- Flying club with SAR?  Or military dress up club with salutes thrown around for whoever has been a member longer?

[Gunner C]

Being a unit with nothing but flying missions, what need do they have for blues or even BDU's?

Maybe demonstrating they belong to CAP instead of a flying club???   CAPM 39-1 para 1-5 states that:  " Members will equip themselves with the basic uniform ."  This is defined in para 1-5a & b.  Para 1-5a is the light blue shirt, blue trousers combo and para 1-5b is the white aviator shirt and gray trousers combo.  I know, just another inconvenent regulation to ignore....   

When I was commander of NC007 for most meetings the uniform was BDUs for cadets, BDUs for officers who were working with cadets, and flight suits for rated officers.  One meeting each month we wore blues.  Since we were on Pope AFB, the system dovetailed perfectly into what the active Air Force was doing at the time.  The Pope wing commander was pleased with our uniforms and the two-star on the base was a big supporter (wore a flight suit when he showed up at meetings.)

[swamprat86]

I wonder who the hardcore uniform/salute folks are? Seems the RM folks are more laid back about that stuff than the NonRM.  Which begs the question what do you CAPmember want out of the organization- Flying club with SAR?  Or military dress up club with salutes thrown around for whoever has been a member longer?

I am one of those that voted.  I am a prior cadet/prior service/prior commander.  What I want out of CAP is what CAP is.  We are a leadership development, emergency service, aerospace education group with ties to the USAF.  The uniform is part of it and should be worn and worn correctly, especially in front of cadets.  We need to lead by example in everything we do with the cadets.

As far as C&C goes the same applies, in front of cadets it should be a 100% compliance.  There will be mistakes, it happens in the military as well, but right behaviors create right results and as a leadership development program that is important.  When it is a bunch of SM in a room with no cadets, that is based on the circumstances.  I was close friends with many of the SM in my unit when I was commander and some of them we SM when I was a cadet, so behind closed doors things were a little lax becuase the mission was more important than being called "sir" by someone that was 15-20 years older than me.  However, in front of cadets, we rarely let it slip.

Being on wing staff, it is not as strict as it would be at a local unit but I still call the Wing Commander "sir" or "Col" even though I have almost twenty years in service on him.  That is a result based on right behaviors taught to me as a cadet. 

[jimmydeanno]

I find it odd that when many of us talk about C&C we always put the qualifying statement of, "especially in front of cadets." 

Enforcing a standard is much more difficult if you only 'have to' in front of a certain group of people, or you need to increase the level for another. Assessing the group demographic before deciding if you are going to salute or not only makes it more difficult.

Why don't we just say, "The uniform needs to be worn properly," and "Customs and Courtesies need to be observed."

[notaNCO forever]

 I think C&C should be enforced whenever practical along with the proper wear of allthe uniforms we wear. I put in whenever practical because it doesn't make sense to enforce things like saluting well on ES type missions. I always try to have my uniform looking good and practice proper C&C no matter what.

[Eclipse]

Why don't we just say, "The uniform needs to be worn properly," and "Customs and Courtesies need to be observed."

Because some "adults" get "testy" when they are told what to do. 

[swamprat86]

I find it odd that when many of us talk about C&C we always put the qualifying statement of, "especially in front of cadets." 

Enforcing a standard is much more difficult if you only 'have to' in front of a certain group of people, or you need to increase the level for another. Assessing the group demographic before deciding if you are going to salute or not only makes it more difficult.

Why don't we just say, "The uniform needs to be worn properly," and "Customs and Courtesies need to be observed."

I use the term "in front of cadets" because as adults there should already be a level of respect that is not defined by grade.  The "in front of cadets" is to reinforce their training.  The cadets do the same.  When peers are together outside of SM's range, they refer to each other by name but in front of us and other cadets they follow C&C.

[Larry Mangum]

I actually feel that the poll questions does not fit the title.  Customs and courtesies should always be enforced. But there is a difference between enforcing uniform wear and it being properly worn.   You cannot force a senior member to wear a uniform except for when working with cadets or flying. Cadets are required by regulation to have a "Class B" uniform but not BDU's, so even though I cannot fathom a cadet not having BDU's you can not by regulation punish them for not having a set.  Now a wing or region may supplement a regulation, but that is not really germane to this discussion.

However if a uniform is worn, then it should be worn as prescribed by regulation or manual.  A person who's uniform is not up to standard, should be taken aside and talked to by his commander or immediate supervisor. But privately and not publicly humiliated.   

Anyway my answer to the poll is Customs and Courtesy always enforced and Uniforms when required or worn , be worn correctly.

[RiverAux]

cannot force a senior member to wear a uniform except for when working with cadets or flying.

Table 1.1 -- wear of the uniform is required when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local, wing/region, or national CAP functions.  And Note 1 says The National Commander and other commanders may specify the wear of a particular uniform type for the purpose of achieving a uniform appearance at squadron, group, wing, region, and national
functions.

[Eclipse]

cannot force a senior member to wear a uniform except for when working with cadets or flying.

Table 1.1 -- wear of the uniform is required when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local, wing/region, or national CAP functions.  And Note 1 says The National Commander and other commanders may specify the wear of a particular uniform type for the purpose of achieving a uniform appearance at squadron, group, wing, region, and national
functions.

+10

It fully within a respective commander's authority to prescribe and require a specific uniform (assuming one isn't prescribed by the duty itself).  The practical reality is that this needs to be tempered with common sense and sensitivity to member wallets, but there's no reg that defines the word "sensitivity". A commander looking to make a point could certainly start indicating a UOD, especially if he had upstream support.

Further, as has been pointed out on a number of occasions, the first page of 39-1 indicates that all CAP members are required to have either the basic service dress blues or the aviator whites.

So we certainly can require you to wear a uniform.

[Larry Mangum]

I stand corrected, when a uniform has been proscribed for an event or activity.  But take a close look at Table 1-2 and the following cap knowledgebase article 806 in regards to cadet's and CAPM39-1 para 1-5.

[Eclipse]

I don't need to look, Cadets are a different story entirely.  We can only require what we issue them.

[LittleIronPilot]

A Reserve Laison Major showed up at our squadron in his Air Force Flight Suit.  Appropriate??

Yes...for them.  Depending on their job, the flight suit, for reservists and active duty, is considered their regular duty uniform.

That is not the case for CAP.

Liason's? Absolutely it is proper for them to wear the AF uniform as they are NOT members of CAP.

[Capflyer]

  Flight suits should not be for regular meetings!!! That's like showing up for blood donations in welding gear!

  Oh!...Look at me!...I'm a pilot!......Duh huh?

I beg to differ. It depends on what unit you are in. My unit is a Senior Squadron and flying unit. We are all pilots (many of us former active duty) or aircrew members and we meet in flight suits. Is that inappropriate?

And no, you don't have to "look at us"...we already know that we are cool...

[Rob Sherlin]

Sorry if you took offense to that! The whole reason why I brought that up was the post stating that members show up to regular meetings (non flight) in flight suits....Thus stating "wear the appropriate uniform".......You're not going to show up for a "dress" or classroom function where you're not going to be flying in a flight suit are you?...If what you do at your meetings is fly, than so be it...but otherwise, it's not appropriate........Relax! And don't take so much offense!

Good goin' Eclipse!...I'm with you on the senior members whining about being told what uniform to wear!