Anonymity

[Skyray]

The subject has come up peripherally in several threads.  I tend to discount anonymous posts unless they are extremely cogent and well reasoned.  Post anonymously that Richard Anderson is a jerk, and immediately your submissions under that alias end up in my round file because I have a very strong opinion that Richard Anderson is one of the better things that ever happened to CAP.  There are some CAP leaders that you can diss without evoking my disdain because I agree with you.  But the bottom line is that you are not going to change my mind from an anonymous platform.  I do listen to logic, and my mind can be changed-- Chaplain Don and Alice Mansell did it just the other day.

For all that, there is a risk to claiming your ideas.  Someone, I believe it was Nomex, asked if you could be disciplined for what you said here.  My answer was that yes you could, and that I knew two cases of members who had been terminated for expressing their objection to violations of CAP regulations.  In an atmosphere where the chain of command is not responsive to member complaints, sometimes publishing your knowledge is the only course of action open.  But you run the eternal risk of the whistle blower.  Sometimes, as in my case, you are lucky enough to see justice done, at least partial justice.

[star1151]

Discounted in my squadron, discounted here.  <shrugs>  Doesn't mean I can't read and attempt to learn what I should be learning in real life.

[Skyray]

Discounted in my squadron, discounted here.  <shrugs>  Doesn't mean I can't read and attempt to learn what I should be learning in real life.

Actually, you were one of the cogent anonymous posters that I credit.  I understand your reasoning, and I understand your problem.

[MIKE]

The company line:

Members will not impersonate anybody else.  This includes a ban on falsely stating your grade, rank, position, membership status, or any other personal information.  Members not wishing to use their real name may choose their username as a pseudonym, but will not create and use any other false names.

Emphasis added.

[Skyray]

Mike stated:

Members not wishing to use their real name may choose their username as a pseudonym

And I have no problem with that, particularly if they have no problem with me discounting their posting.  Some of them have absolutely nothing on their profile.  And some of them will at least tell you where they are in a PM and I consider that a sacred trust. Remember me;  I am the guy that got terminated nine years ago for saying Pineda had no integrity; something the rest of you are just finding out.  First he tried to have Bob Ebaugh bar me from the Florida reflector, and when Bob wouldn't do it, he had my file flagged.  Actually, that was a mistake, because after the flag was filed he had no leverage at all to shut me up.

[RogueLeader]

I don't discount you or what you say.  Your thoughts are well spelled out.  One thing that I have found that some, not all, use anonymity as a shield- including myself at one point. I did it for the exact same reasons you are.  The point is, when a member who dishes out whatever, and won't take responsibility- as you have- is generally taken with a grain of salt.  In your case, I don't know who you are, and don't need to.  I take your posts seriously at their fair value.

[Major Carrales]

I come from a background where people are asked to stand by their words.  That one speaks their mind and gives their WORD.  That what is said behind one's back is equal to that is said to their face.

I know this is "hokey" and "provincial" to some our MODERN society, but it is what I try to live by.

I have put my real world job as a teacher on the line before for what I believe in.  When I wrong I fess up to it.  I am a creature of growth, I can change possitons of thsoe possitions are validly disproven or if a better way is discovered.

On these forums I have seen practices most destructive to our ends.  Posting rumors as "facts" and wild specualtions that become "facts."  When this is done by those that do not take credit for their work...it is called blind propaganda.  Agendism reigns.

If I know who you are and you stand by your writings, that adds to my views on your writings.  If you can't make a statement in the LIGHT, then you likely have some DARK purpose.

If you fear reprisals, then PM people beofre you post and discuss it.  If you have information that might shack things up...then make yourself known.  If you are in the RIGHT you will eventually WIN!

[mikeylikey]

I do believe we had this SAME topic last year and this year in various threads. 

I will make the same statement I have before when MY anonymity was brought into question.  PM me....and I will give you my MIL email and we can set-up a face to face if you wish.  I will not broadcast myself out for various reasons.....knowing people who would quickly jump at the chance to use what I type against me both personally and professionally.

I will gladly stand behind what I post.  If I post stats, I have the document ready to go waiting for the PM asking for proof. 

All that aside, who are any of you to demand that anyone here not post anonymously.  When the rules change and say that we have to put our name and unit down then I will. 

I am more concerned with those EX-MEMBERS who come here and discuss only one subject, i.e....their termination and those who terminated them.  I would be so ashamed to put my "dirty laundry" on view.

 

[Major Carrales]

All that aside, who are any of you to demand that anyone here not post anonymously.  When the rules change and say that we have to put our name and unit down then I will. 

I'm a Civil Air Patrol Public Affairs officer who has watched too many anonymously posted rants and agendistic posts that have been destructive to CAP as a whole.  If those people had the chutzpah to write that in thier own persona and face the music, if need be, or receive the praise.

These forums are not places to "get around" chain-of-command or post elements that violate CAP protocols.  I have seen lots of "unbecoming" discussions that result in very public PUBLIC AFFAIRS NIGHTMARES.  Why not take it to the PMs or stand by it like persons of character.

I am more concerned with those EX-MEMBERS who come here and discuss only one subject, i.e....their termination and those who terminated them.  I would be so ashamed to put my "dirty laundry" on view.

I am more concerned with these sorts that seek to stir up issues that are 1) long moot, 2) topics really only of interest to active CAP memebers or 3) take pot shots at active CAP folks from their veil of DARKNESS.

[star1151]

If those people had the chutzpah to write that in thier own persona and face the music, if need be, or receive the praise.

If I wasn't as non-confrontational as I am, there's nothing I've posted that I wouldn't say to anyone in my squadron.  I have no problem explaining things and seeking advice from outsiders, but you never know who is posting here.  At this point in time, I'm not ready for those involved to hear what I have to say.  I have no problem answering questions about who and where I am via PM to those who I KNOW for a fact are not a part of my group (yes, I said group, not squadron, because the issues I'm running into involve multiple squadrons).

And no, I'm not trying to stir anything up.  If I was into that, I'd have brought all this up in my own unit in a most unprofessional manner.  I'm simply trying to find a way that I can be an active, WANTED member.

ETA: And if that wasn't a good enough reason, I had a guy I dated in college look me up in the FAA database and find out where I live and do some borderline illegal stuff.  I don't think ANYONE online needs to know my full name or where I live.  YOU might be trustworthy, but all sorts of people can read posts here.

[Major Carrales]

At this point in time, I'm not ready for those involved to hear what I have to say.

Why, what reason have you to to hide?  Planning to overthrow something...like the government?

Think you might get 2b'ed because you want to change the number of ribbons a cadet can wear?  Think the safety program is crazed?

People who come here to post something like "I fly the CAP Aircraft without a flight release to take my girlfriends on the ride of their life" probably have serious mental issues for posting that.  That would deserve a 2b.

I have posed as myself from day one of this, I have numerous posts.  I stand my them.  I refrain from making "pot shots' at my Group/WING/REGIONAL superiors.  I try my best to post positive things, express opinions and ideas. 

[star1151]

I have posed as myself from day one of this, I have numerous posts.  I stand my them.  I refrain from making "pot shots' at my Group/WING/REGIONAL superiors.  I try my best to post positive things, express opinions and ideas. 

If you could point out where I took pot shots at any of my superiors OR posed as someone I'm not, I'd be grateful.  I am non-confrontational, and that's why I'm not ready to bring my issues up in person yet.

As far as the rest, read my edit, please.  It's a matter of security for me, beyond CAP.

[Major Carrales]

I have posed as myself from day one of this, I have numerous posts.  I stand my them.  I refrain from making "pot shots' at my Group/WING/REGIONAL superiors.  I try my best to post positive things, express opinions and ideas. 

If you could point out where I took pot shots at any of my superiors OR posed as someone I'm not, I'd be grateful.  I am non-confrontational, and that's why I'm not ready to bring my issues up in person yet.

As far as the rest, read my edit, please.  It's a matter of security for me, beyond CAP.

If you could point out where I said you did these things, I believe I was talking about myself.  The statement was that I had posted at myself from my registration and have never posted such remarks about my superiors.

You have read way too much into that.  Those are examples of things that might get you 2b'ed.

[Skyray]

Well, Mikey, I don't consider it my dirty laundry.  I consider it their dirty laundry, and their manipulation of the rules and regulations.  My major offense was that I told Pineda back in 1996 that he didn't have what it took to compare himself to a real Colonel.  I have never been 2Bed, 2Ded or even served with charges.  I need to quit talking about it or Delaney is going to claim his pool winnings.  But the thing that has kept me out of CAP is a completely illegal notice posted on my social security number in the CAP database.  Pineda has blamed all sorts of people except himself.  Only after I got a notice from Susie Parker did I know for sure who was playing with my membership.  And he nearly came unglued that it was given to me.  Apparently the squadron commander who accepted my membership application and was relieved for it wasn't supposed to let me see it.  What I post here are not rumors.  What I post here are documented experiences either of myself or people I have co-counseled with or represented.  There are many abusing power besides Pineda.  You can't really blame them, the paradigm practically invites them to abuse power.

[flyerthom]

Anonymity has a long influence in US history. Remember Publius the "author" of The Federalist Papers. I would not question the integrity of Madison, Hamilton and Jay.

That being said it can also be abused. Anyone remember usenet and alt.military.cap? Check it out on google groups. It's now a complete waste of pixels, obscenities  and flame wars.

Whether it's right, wrong or gray, it is a very sharp double edged sword. It is a tool that should be used carefully.  It can be a catalyst for change, or a weapon of mass destruction for a forum. As this is in all reality, a private forum graciously provided by individuals, it has a check on the abuses of anonymity.

I think anonymity does have it's uses but then again nobody has to take that poster serious. If I use the example of usenet again - I can point to all sorts of posts by whacked out  conspiracy theorists,  fake veterans, phony experts, and other miscreants who stalk posters who disagree with them. A reason for anonymity! But then again, these trolls get away with it because they are anonymous. 

The best way to deal with it is on an individual basis. Someone who is anonymous just to troll will out themselves eventually. Someone with true reasons for it will not slip to that level. Unlike usenet, we have fair and reasonable moderators with a professional attitude. We need to trust them with this. If we want something looked at we need only to click that report to mods key in every post. 


For what it's worth, my name can be found in the intro thread and be trailed from the post about the photo's I took at the Fosset search. Heck a couple of poster's know me in the real world.

[Major Carrales]

Anonymity has a long influence in US history. Remember Publius the "author" of The Federalist Papers. I would not question the integrity of Madison, Hamilton and Jay.

I guess then you also remember Brutus.  History show that, when the time came, people did SIGN the Declaration of Independece knowing full well it was more or less "signing their own death sentence" if they failed.

Maybe, my would be friend, we draw our theories on this subject from different historical examples. 

I assume, that if theings were different, and I were the holder of some agendistic point I might take a hidden stance.  Fortunately, I've been "in the open" long enough that peope like Kach or any number of others would call me on it.

[flyerthom]

Anonymity has a long influence in US history. Remember Publius the "author" of The Federalist Papers. I would not question the integrity of Madison, Hamilton and Jay.

Maybe, my would be friend, we draw our theories on this subject from different historical examples. 

Sounds like it. I blame it on a Jesuit education. Sent you a PM.

[Ricochet13]

Anonymity has a long influence in US history. Remember Publius the "author" of The Federalist Papers. I would not question the integrity of Madison, Hamilton and Jay.

I guess then you also remember Brutus.  History show that, when the time came, people did SIGN the Declaration of Independence knowing full well it was more or less "signing their own death sentence" if they failed.

Maybe, my would be friend, we draw our theories on this subject from different historical examples. 

I assume, that if things were different, and I were the holder of some agendistic point I might take a hidden stance.  Fortunately, I've been "in the open" long enough that Pepe like Kach or any number of others would call me on it.

Excellent historical examples.  Now they also represent two different situations. 

In the first, anonymity was necessary to remove the individual from the argument.  The argument needed to be looked at standing on its own and not dismissed because of who had formulated it.   Hamilton, Madison, and Jay used Publius to focus on the explanations being put forth to explain and defend the thinking behind a somewhat controversial document being discussed at the time.  (They may also have used it to avoid the wrath of AntiFederalists.  Tar and feathers were used freely back in those days.   )

In the second example, anonymity was not the issue as these Founding Fathers stood up and accepted the mantel of Leadership, doing so publically, not only for the crown and Parliament, but for their fellow citizens to see as well.

Both examples are part of our shared historical traditions.  I have no problem with anyone posting anonymously with only one qualification.  If you really wish me to read and think about it, put forth a reasoned argument, not a rant, not a rave, not a vent, etc. 

I will continue to remain anonymous, and try hard to follow my own advise. 

[Walkman]

Having spent a fair amount on time in various forums and social networks over the years, the main problem I see with anonymity in a community comes from flamers and trolls. My experience here seems to show a fewer number of them visit CAPTalk than in other online venues I frequent.

The usual pattern is that some one creates a profile with nothing on it, comes in and starts controversy (either a new thread or replies). They attack with barely logical arguments, never acknowledge factual arguments contrary to their position, compare respected community members with famous dictators and then *poof* disappear. I've seen it hundreds of times. In fact a once beloved community of web designers I was a part of in the early days of the internet literally died because it got overrun by trolls.

I think that when an anonymous member handles themselves maturely, makes a contribution to the community and general behaves, most don't have a problem with not knowing who they really are. Even in a debate, I think it's possible to remain nameless and credible at the same time, it's all in the way one goes about it.

I used to try and remain very anonymous online. In the recent years, I've decided to embrace the new paradigm of openness with online information. Google me, you'll see my LinkedIn profile and my Ziki profile. I blog in my real name. I'm in Facebook. Professional, I've found it to be very helpful. My biggest client found me on LinkedIn, started Googling my name and decided that I was worth calling.

[Short Field]

Anomymity is a shield that trolls, flamers, and posers hide behind.  However, it also provides an ability to discuss things in an open forum with a bit of privacy (don't laugh too hard).  I am sure Dear Abby would have a lot less letters if she published everyone's name and address.

There is another CAP related site that offers a forum for Squadron Commanders.  Nice concept but it just seems a little unwise to me for a a Squadon Commander to be airing his/her problems in a public forum - especially when the sources of the problems could be reading the posts.   

Some people have exceptionally thin skins.  So if you have identified yourself even by squadron, then a problem with your personnel officer immediately identifies the personnel officer BY NAME to everyone in that squadron who reads this forum.  Not a good way to resove issues. 

By the way, I would be more than happy to provide more personnal information to the moderators via PM and maybe to a few of the people I am posting with.  But not in a flame war and not to someone who has a rant against something we are not going to change anyway.

Short Field - cause that is the type of landings I prefer...