Seniors in formation

[Capt Thompson]

During the winter, due to size constraints of the rooms in our building, Seniors don't generally fall into formation for opening, awards etc. Usually the 2 Cadet Flights take up most of the largest room, so the Seniors file in along the walls around them.

Now with the weather changing, the Cadets are requesting opening formation be held outdoors, with full participation of the Seniors, and I agree completely. My question is, for the Squadrons who have enough active Seniors to make up a flight, how do you accomplish this?

Do you have Seniors assigned as Element Leaders, Flight Leaders etc.? Do you organize according to height, or uniform (i.e. the 2 Seniors in BDU's are element leaders, and the other 10 in blue polos fall in to their left)? Do they just fall in wherever they can find a spot?

I've seen a few different variations, but always in smaller Squadrons. Our Cadets have a full chain of command, Element Leaders, Flight Sergeants, First Sergeant, etc. Our Seniors have enough active for about a 10-12 man flight + the DCS and CC.

Last week we did a full formation. On the command "fall in" from the C/CC the Cadets snapped into place in seconds, then watched the Seniors for 5 minutes pointing around and saying "I think you go here, and I go here, no that's not right." I would like to (soon) have a plan in place so that every Senior knows their place in formation, and is able to fall in as quickly as the Cadets.

So, how are things done in your Squadrons?

[Luis R. Ramos]

It almost always happens that way, as seniors are not usually used to this.

In the squadrons I have been, when the senior members are expected to fall in formation, the most senior one or the Dpty Cdr for seniors falls in as Flt Cdr.

Other seniors fall in in elements according to their grade. Element leaders are the ones with the higher grade... And back to "You are a 1st Lt, you go to the left of the Capt... You are a 2nd Lt, you go between the Major and the guy with no grade,... etc."

Cadets know how to do it as they do it every single meeting date. Senior members... until they do that every single meeting are subject to the "You go here, we go there..."

[Capt Thompson]

I almost feel like we should assign elements, in order of grade, so they know ahead of time where they're expected to be, and then if someone doesn't show and the elements are uneven we move forward and fill in the gaps.

Another solution would be to have the Seniors fall into formation a few minutes before the Cadets enter the room, so they never see the confusion.

[THRAWN]

I almost feel like we should assign elements, in order of grade, so they know ahead of time where they're expected to be, and then if someone doesn't show and the elements are uneven we move forward and fill in the gaps.

Another solution would be to have the Seniors fall into formation a few minutes before the Cadets enter the room, so they never see the confusion.

Nothing wrong with seniors in formations. Give them some practice and let them build some muscle memory. We did it in every unit I was a member of...

[lordmonar]

I almost feel like we should assign elements, in order of grade, so they know ahead of time where they're expected to be, and then if someone doesn't show and the elements are uneven we move forward and fill in the gaps.

Another solution would be to have the Seniors fall into formation a few minutes before the Cadets enter the room, so they never see the confusion.

IMHO too much work.

fall them in by size and be done with it.

[Anthony@CAP]

When I was in a squadron that did this, the DCS (or the most senior, senior member if he was out) would take the flight commander position and then the senior members just fell into line in elements of three (developed ad hoc). Essentially they didn't fall into a specific place, they just made sure they were lined up 3 across behind the flight commander and as far back as necessary (generally there were never more than 9 in the flight).

I found it far easier then trying to assign specific elements as you then had to fill in space if someone was missing. They all just knew to make a 3 x 3 box centered behind the flight commander, filling the front first and moving back. However made it to formation first got to be in front. I suppose there are more correct ways to do it, but for purposes of opening and closing formation it worked well, and it never looked like people were lost (unless they were new).

[TexasBEAST]

When I first joined as a cadet, we had enough personnel to form our own cadet group every Tuesday night. The SM staff fell in as a large staff behind the SQ/CC, who for formation purposes acted as a reviewing officer with a large party. I still think this is the best approach, to avoid confusion.

As the unit shrunk, the SMs stopped participating in formations, altogether.

When I became a SM, I persuaded the other SMs to at least hover in the wings whenever the cadets held formations, if for no other reason than that we could give announcements to the whole unit all at once.

When I became SQ/CC, I just told my DCS to form a SM flight to the right of the cadets. My senior-ranking SMs served as element leaders, and everybody else fell in by descending height off of them. That's correct D&C procedure, and correct custom.

However, there was always a disconnect between the cadet flights with their FLT/CCs and the C/CC, as opposed to the SM FLT with the DCS as FLT/CC, but no counterpart to the C/CC. It threw the balance way off.

That's why I preferred the idea of the SM FLT falling in behind the SQ/CC, as with a group formation.

I still don't know the best way to maintain balance with anything less than a full group.

Perhaps there is some sort of procedure for "detachments" or "attached elements" to a group, such as for visiting positions of honor, at the right flank of the group formation, which allow for nonstandard posts for the leadership positions when there is such an imbalance?

[TexasBEAST]

Last week we did a full formation. On the command "fall in" from the C/CC the Cadets snapped into place in seconds[...].

Are you sure it was the C/CC who did this? It is actually supposed to be the first sergeant who calls the unit to fall in. The NCOs do their little routine, taking reports on accountability, giving initial announcement or corrections, and what-not; and then the officers (such as the C/CC) are supposed to take their posts.

Perhaps the DCC could serve as the SM FLT/SGT, and the DCS could serve as the SM FLT/CC?

[THRAWN]

Last week we did a full formation. On the command "fall in" from the C/CC the Cadets snapped into place in seconds[...].

Are you sure it was the C/CC who did this? It is actually supposed to be the first sergeant who calls the unit to fall in. The NCOs do their little routine, taking reports on accountability, giving initial announcement or corrections, and what-not; and then the officers (such as the C/CC) are supposed to take their posts.

Perhaps the DCC could serve as the SM FLT/SGT, and the DCS could serve as the SM FLT/CC?

That is pretty much how we did it. It gave the positions a function and let the rest of us know where and when to be standing tall.

[EMT-83]

When I was in a squadron that did this, the DCS (or the most senior, senior member if he was out) would take the flight commander position and then the senior members just fell into line in elements of three (developed ad hoc). Essentially they didn't fall into a specific place, they just made sure they were lined up 3 across behind the flight commander and as far back as necessary (generally there were never more than 9 in the flight).

I found it far easier then trying to assign specific elements as you then had to fill in space if someone was missing. They all just knew to make a 3 x 3 box centered behind the flight commander, filling the front first and moving back. However made it to formation first got to be in front. I suppose there are more correct ways to do it, but for purposes of opening and closing formation it worked well, and it never looked like people were lost (unless they were new).

Ditto. Depending on who is working on what project, it can be different senior members standing for opening and closing formations. By keeping it simple, everyone can fall in pretty quickly.

[TexasBEAST]

I found it far easier then trying to assign specific elements as you then had to fill in space if someone was missing. They all just knew to make a 3 x 3 box centered behind the flight commander, filling the front first and moving back. However made it to formation first got to be in front. I suppose there are more correct ways to do it, but for purposes of opening and closing formation it worked well, and it never looked like people were lost (unless they were new).

The catch there might be that formal formations (redundancy much?  ) require accountability checks and reports. Element leaders need to know exactly how many personnel to expect to see in their respective elements, in order to render an accurate, fact-based report to the FLT/SGT.

If you just wing it from week to week, yeah, that's convenient and everything. But what are your accountability reports based on?

Were the SM elements always made up of no more than 3 personnel? Or did one of them occasionally ever go up to 4?

After the formal reporting was over, I think the flight staff would be free to rearrange personnel within the flight however they deemed fit for that particular drill session. But for the report, there ought to be fixed, assigned positions within each element.

[Mitchell 1969]

How many seniors are actually assigned to a "flight" that is part of a cadet squadron? If they aren't flight members as a duty assignment, why create a fake flight simply to give them a place to stand? Especially when they already have a place.

Most seniors at cadet squadrons hold staff positions. Just line them up behind the SQ CC, minus the ones who are working, plus the one or two designated to welcome parents or visitors.

[Storm Chaser]

I almost feel like we should assign elements, in order of grade, so they know ahead of time where they're expected to be, and then if someone doesn't show and the elements are uneven we move forward and fill in the gaps.

Another solution would be to have the Seniors fall into formation a few minutes before the Cadets enter the room, so they never see the confusion.

IMHO too much work.

fall them in by size and be done with it.

I agree. If you feel strongly about doing opening formation with senior members, you should keep it as simple as possible.

To be honest, I don't think senior members should be required to participate in formations, especially in composite squadrons. Unlike cadets, senior members are not instructed nor required to be knowledgable about drill and ceremonies. In addition, not every senior member is interested or joined CAP to participate in this aspect of the organization, so why make it mandatory?

In 19 years in the Air Force, the only times I've participated in a formation (other than BMT and Tech School) are during formal change of commands or awards ceremonies. Even then, many of these are held in doors, in an auditorium. Opening formation, while part of military tradition, is not something the military (especially the Air Force) does every week. Officers, in particular, don't usually participate in those kind of formations.

[BFreemanMA]

I thought about having senior members in formation, but it just seemed to be a lot of hassle for something that did not have much of a return on investment. If I need to make an important, squadron-wide announcement, it would be easier for me to gather everyone together indoors than it would be to shout out a notice across a parking lot.

[Camas]

I remember some years ago when I served as my unit deputy commander for seniors I was asked by my commander if I wanted to hold formations for seniors. I advised against it; it wasn't necessary and, at the time, we had more pressing issues with which to deal.

[GroundHawg]

I almost feel like we should assign elements, in order of grade, so they know ahead of time where they're expected to be, and then if someone doesn't show and the elements are uneven we move forward and fill in the gaps.

Another solution would be to have the Seniors fall into formation a few minutes before the Cadets enter the room, so they never see the confusion.

IMHO too much work.

fall them in by size and be done with it.

I agree. If you feel strongly about doing opening formation with senior members, you should keep it as simple as possible.

To be honest, I don't think senior members should be required to participate in formations, especially in composite squadrons. Unlike cadets, senior members are not instructed nor required to be knowledgeable about drill and ceremonies. In addition, not every senior member is interested or joined CAP to participate in this aspect of the organization, so why make it mandatory?

In 19 years in the Air Force, the only times I've participated in a formation (other than BMT and Tech School) are during formal change of commands or awards ceremonies. Even then, many of these are held in doors, in an auditorium. Opening formation, while part of military tradition, is not something the military (especially the Air Force) does every week. Officers, in particular, don't usually participate in those kind of formations.

Its strange how different our experiences with both CAP and the USAF are.

As someone who believes in leading by example, I always line up a "Sierra" flight in formations. I have found that cadets respond well to the Coaching Leadership model and respect our efforts.

While I was in the Air Force, the only time I didn't line up in formation at the beginning of the day is when I was deployed. Every morning (except Sundays) we went to the warehouse and formed up even if there wasn't anything to be briefed on.

[Storm Chaser]

I almost feel like we should assign elements, in order of grade, so they know ahead of time where they're expected to be, and then if someone doesn't show and the elements are uneven we move forward and fill in the gaps.

Another solution would be to have the Seniors fall into formation a few minutes before the Cadets enter the room, so they never see the confusion.

IMHO too much work.

fall them in by size and be done with it.

I agree. If you feel strongly about doing opening formation with senior members, you should keep it as simple as possible.

To be honest, I don't think senior members should be required to participate in formations, especially in composite squadrons. Unlike cadets, senior members are not instructed nor required to be knowledgeable about drill and ceremonies. In addition, not every senior member is interested or joined CAP to participate in this aspect of the organization, so why make it mandatory?

In 19 years in the Air Force, the only times I've participated in a formation (other than BMT and Tech School) are during formal change of commands or awards ceremonies. Even then, many of these are held in doors, in an auditorium. Opening formation, while part of military tradition, is not something the military (especially the Air Force) does every week. Officers, in particular, don't usually participate in those kind of formations.

Its strange how different our experiences with both CAP and the USAF are.

As someone who believes in leading by example, I always line up a "Sierra" flight in formations. I have found that cadets respond well to the Coaching Leadership model and respect our efforts.

While I was in the Air Force, the only time I didn't line up in formation at the beginning of the day is when I was deployed. Every morning (except Sundays) we went to the warehouse and formed up even if there wasn't anything to be briefed on.

What did you do in the Air Force?

[TheTravelingAirman]

It honestly depends. We formed up for flight call monthly at my first base (no specific order). We didn't at my second. Did at my third twice over 27 months. First time we got berated for having dirty/faded/old uniforms. Got new ones for the open ranks the next week. Had NEW dirty uniforms. Daily formation for my deployment. Nothing at my fourth base.

We don't see formations often in my little corner of maintenance unless you're in trouble or did real good. Nothing in between, really, calls for it. Leadership usually doesn't want to stop maintenance or make us look semi-presentable for their 5-minute-a-quarter walkthrough.

[TexasBEAST]

The word "composite" in Composite Squadron is derived from the Latin compositus, which means "placed together".

It's kind of hard to live up to that if the SMs are off somewhere else away from the cadets. Being "together" merely on paper or in spirit seems rather hollow, don't ya think?

It shouldn't really matter if SMs are "interested" in joining in D&C on a limited basis. Be honest: Some cadets don't particularly care for it either, for that matter.

But D&C teaches precision, followership/responsiveness to commands, and teamwork. Those are important principles, no matter one's membership category.

Sure, there are bound to be times when other duties have to take precedence. And certainly a lot of drill maneuvers seem like overly tedious reinventions of the wheel.

But I don't see a good reason for a categorical nonparticipation by all SMs. That smacks of elitist, isolationist dismissiveness.

Is that something akin to the gross underrepresentation by SMs in ground team operations? Should drill and ground team, both, be predominantly cadet activities?

There's a lot of ballyhoo about the corrosiveness of would-be elitism in programs like the Rangers and Blue Berets. But SM elitism and separatism is probably a lot more destructive and pervasive than those high-profile entities.

Some of that is institutionalized in the formal distinction between senior and cadet squadrons. Pity.

But it is more pronounced and especially disheartening when it happens in units that are ostensibly supposed to be composited and joined.

[almostspaatz]

The word "composite" in Composite Squadron is derived from the Latin compositus, which means "placed together".

It's kind of hard to live up to that if the SMs are off somewhere else away from the cadets. Being "together" merely on paper or in spirit seems rather hollow, don't ya think?

I really don't have an opinion on wether or not adult officers should be in opening formation, but I agree that often composite squadrons are really just 2 squadrons that meet at the same place at the same time.

After opening the officers go to their room and do whatever it is that they do, and the cadets go do their own thing. Often times the cadets have no idea who the adult officers are in their squadron.

Just my thoughts, not sure if having everyone in opening formation would really help that or not though.