Quality Versus Desire?

[ZigZag911]

Because it's not about me or what I want.  It's about serving (service before self). 

Thank you, it needs to be stated often.

Maybe the next piece of 'bling' CAP develops should be a 'morale patch' with that particular core value embroidered on it!

[DogCollar]

Those who want to bust the chops of those who ONLY come to the meetings and ONLY do their assigned tasks need to back WAY off!!

Or, on the flip side, those that ONLY come to meetings and ONLY do their assigned tasks need to understand that their progession in the organization may be limited.  There is nothing wrong with that. 

I agree there is nothing wrong with that.  Promotion for ANYTHING inside or outside CAP should be because of outstanding service to the organization.  Again, I am not in this organization for grade or promotion...I couldn't care less.  And, frankly I haven't heard any senior member of my squadron complain about the promotion standards...not one!

What I do have a problem with is the idea that I think is inherent in some of these posts that if you don't live and breath CAP 24/7 and if you don't want to aspire to "higher" positions, then somehow the whole senior membership is lessened.

I think what CAP needs to be communicating is an appreciation for anyone and everyone who is willing to volunteer ANY amount of time in service to their nation.  A simple thank you is worth it's weight in gold.

[ZigZag911]

Those who want to bust the chops of those who ONLY come to the meetings and ONLY do their assigned tasks need to back WAY off!! 

The question is not giving a hard time to those whose participation is at the basic level, but rather recognizing that these folks don't have the time to take a lot of the training.....so their roles will mainly be in (necessary) support functions....which is fine....but this does not describe the commanders, advanced instructors, policy makers, or field grade officers.

By the way, some of those filling these roles also work 40 plus hours, have family and community obligations, and so forth....it's a choice, admittedly....but, on the other hand, those NOT able or willing (and the two are different issues) to devote time to training and participation really need to recognize that a more limited role also means a more limited voice in decision making.

[DogCollar]

By the way, some of those filling these roles also work 40 plus hours, have family and community obligations, and so forth....it's a choice, admittedly....but, on the other hand, those NOT able or willing (and the two are different issues) to devote time to training and participation really need to recognize that a more limited role also means a more limited voice in decision making.
[/quote]

I feel like we are all in agreement here.  I am NOT suggesting that those of us who can only volunteer 2 to 3 hours a week should become commanders, decision makers, get promoted, anointed, or appointed!  I have not seen a post yet that argues that those who are very limited in their involvement SHOULD be promoted to higher leadership!  My reaction is to the feeling that I have encountered that a 2 to 3 hour a week volunteer is not needed or welcome in the organization.

[capchiro]

Please Dear God, give me 20-25 members that will volunteer 2-3 hours a week and I will give you a squadron that functions.

[ZigZag911]

I feel like we are all in agreement here.  I am NOT suggesting that those of us who can only volunteer 2 to 3 hours a week should become commanders, decision makers, get promoted, anointed, or appointed!  I have not seen a post yet that argues that those who are very limited in their involvement SHOULD be promoted to higher leadership!  My reaction is to the feeling that I have encountered that a 2 to 3 hour a week volunteer is not needed or welcome in the organization.

I think one source of the dispute has been misunderstanding.

Some of us who are particularly involved in ES have said we'd like all seniors to get a minimal ES qualification...such as mission staff assistant...even if they don't maintain currency.

The thinking is that in a catatrophic situation (another 9/11 or Katrina):

1) pretty much everyone will want to help in whatever way they can

2) seniors with a fundamental qualification, even if it is out of currency (which can be waived or re-certified) would be of great service at mission bases. staging areas, and so forth.

I don't think anyone has said everyone needs to be fully active in all 3 missions, but rather that everyone ought to have some basic familiarity with all 3 missions, and be willing to pitch in as needed according to their ability and availability.

I have always been among the first to say family and job come before CAP!

[lordmonar]

I agree with a lot of your points.

The reason we keep comparing ourselves to the military is because well, we kinda LOOK like the military.

If we didn't use military grade insignia, a lot of these comparisons would go away.

Specifically, though, what John K is trying to do is create a core of high level leaders - guys who would run CAP.  And it does make sense, regardless of what grade system is used, to ensure those leaders have a fair amount of knowledge and ability in CAP's missions.  A lot more than the powerpoint level.

And yeah, that means some folks won't ever get to that level.

Here is an intresting thing though....even on active duty....your leaders don't know and have no reason to know what everyone is doing below them.

You Fighter Wing Commander know zip about what the comm squadron is doing...that is why he has a  support group commander and a comm squadron commander.

Being able to lead a large organisation is all about deligation not personal knowledge.

While I agree that we should require some sort of ES, CP and AE requirment to the promotion system/specialty tracks we don't have to make everyone an expert in every area of of our three missions.

[A.Member]

...we don't have to make everyone an expert in every area of of our three missions.

And no one here has proposed that everyone be in expert in every area.

[capchiro]

ZigZag, I think that as a commander, I need to utilize my resources to their best usage.  That said, I hate to spend time insisting on training for situations that may or may not happen in a reasonable time frame.  The two events you mentioned were catastrophic and I would gladly help if possible, however, they were not usual and you have to weigh the training versus the benefit.  Again, it is my understanding that only a relatively few people went to Katrina from Georgia Wing and only for a short time frame.  Perhaps our missions are too widely spread.  I can see a need for a full time ES service for such efforts.  I can also see a full time Cadet program to fulfill those efforts.  Perhaps we need to redefine our squadrons, something along the line of ES squadrons and cadet squadrons and maybe even aerospace squadrons (although that may be redundant) in order to do aproper job of all we are tasked with?  

[ZigZag911]

ZigZag, I think that as a commander, I need to utilize my resources to their best usage.  That said, I hate to spend time insisting on training for situations that may or may not happen in a reasonable time frame.  The two events you mentioned were catastrophic and I would gladly help if possible, however, they were not usual and you have to weigh the training versus the benefit.  Again, it is my understanding that only a relatively few people went to Katrina from Georgia Wing and only for a short time frame.  Perhaps our missions are too widely spread.  I can see a need for a full time ES service for such efforts.  I can also see a full time Cadet program to fulfill those efforts.  Perhaps we need to redefine our squadrons, something along the line of ES squadrons and cadet squadrons and maybe even aerospace squadrons (although that may be redundant) in order to do aproper job of all we are tasked with?   

I understand your position, but still, when disaster strikes it's too late to start preparing....unfortunately the world we live in means that a worst case scenario is not  beyond the borders of possibility.

[jayleswo]

One thought... The "I'm just a volunteer" thing.  That mindset tends to lead to low expectations and mediocrity.

If a member agrees to a duty assignment, job, task or project then they should do it with the same level of attention, skill and commitment as they would anything else of importance. What kills me is people who take a job and then never really do it. When asked about it, the response is "Well, I'm just a volunteer". So, someone else (usually the Commander) has to do the job.

Is that really the kind of program people are interested in being part of? Is that the kind of organization that gains respect from our customers and other agencies we work with? On the face of it, we have some important missions as an organization to fulfill. Is that part of our retention problem? The people that join with high expectations leave because they are not fulfilled? The people that stay are those who are content with mediocrity. And a small core group of people are left with running the unit, then burning out?

I'm all for high standards and expectations, volunteer or not.

John Aylesworth, Lt Col
Commander, PCR-CA-151

[Dragoon]

I agree it's not a great mindset. But.  When the volunteer doesn't put his heart and soul into it, what do you do?

Mediocrity is not currently ground for dismissal.  So, you end up putting that person off in the corner where they can do no harm, and doing the hard job yourself.  We've all been there.  Sigh....

I think we need to rework our rewards policies (including grade) to focus on the folks actually doing the work.  No more bennies for the slackers.  And more bennies for the folks in the tougher jobs!

[DogCollar]

One thought... The "I'm just a volunteer" thing.  That mindset tends to lead to low expectations and mediocrity.

If a member agrees to a duty assignment, job, task or project then they should do it with the same level of attention, skill and commitment as they would anything else of importance. What kills me is people who take a job and then never really do it. When asked about it, the response is "Well, I'm just a volunteer". So, someone else (usually the Commander) has to do the job.

Is that really the kind of program people are interested in being part of? Is that the kind of organization that gains respect from our customers and other agencies we work with? On the face of it, we have some important missions as an organization to fulfill. Is that part of our retention problem? The people that join with high expectations leave because they are not fulfilled? The people that stay are those who are content with mediocrity. And a small core group of people are left with running the unit, then burning out?

I'm all for high standards and expectations, volunteer or not.

John Aylesworth, Lt Col
Commander, PCR-CA-151

Col. I respect your desire for high standards and expectations.  I personally am willing to say that CAP will get the very best I've got...2 to 3 hours a week!  I don't expect a promotion, nor will I get bent out of shape if I am not included in the decision making.  If my 2 to 3 hours a week are not sufficient, then I would hope that my unit commander and/or my wing chaplain would take me aside and say we really don't need what you have to offer us.  That's fine.  I'd have a lot of respect for that commander and/or chaplain.  I enjoy my work with my small squadron of cadets and seniors, and so far, they seem to appreciate my being there every week, leading Moral Leadership, encouraging, listening and trying to increase morale.  When I have the time (which isn't often) I work on doing what I need to do to be qualified as a mission chaplain.

I don't desire to climb CAP's corporate/military ladder.  I have no need to wear higher rank insignia...heck, I'll give back my Captain bars if bothers enough people.  Yet, with the little time I have to offer, I will do the very best I can in service to others.  If this makes me a "mediocre slacker"...so be it.

[capchiro]

Bill, I will gladly take you and as many like you as I can get.  You are the backbone and not the jawbone of this fine organization.  Some people don't realize that with the exception of the recent unpleasantness in Iraq, a lot of CAP 2-3 hours per week and an occasional weekend people have matched if not exceeded the national guard/reserve component military and all of this without pay or benefits.  Keep up the good work and if you feel abused, come join my squadron, I would be proud to have you.

[Chappie]

By the way, some of those filling these roles also work 40 plus hours, have family and community obligations, and so forth....it's a choice, admittedly....but, on the other hand, those NOT able or willing (and the two are different issues) to devote time to training and participation really need to recognize that a more limited role also means a more limited voice in decision making.

I feel like we are all in agreement here.  I am NOT suggesting that those of us who can only volunteer 2 to 3 hours a week should become commanders, decision makers, get promoted, anointed, or appointed!  I have not seen a post yet that argues that those who are very limited in their involvement SHOULD be promoted to higher leadership!  My reaction is to the feeling that I have encountered that a 2 to 3 hour a week volunteer is not needed or welcome in the organization.
[/quote


Bill,

It was never my intent to "bust the chops of those who ONLY come to the meetings and ONLY do their assigned tasks..."  My original post was in response to the minimal training requirements for CAP officers...which someone suggested as completing the AFIADL 13.  To which I am in total agreement.  As you know, CAP Chaplains are appointment at the rank/grade of either 1st Lt, Capt, or Maj based on their academic work.  But the rank/grade on the epaulet does not necessarily make them an "officer" in the CAP. As mentioned in my previous post, I believe that many issues that unit commanders have with their unit chaplain would be minimal had the Chaplain pursued his/her training beyond the minimal requirement of Level 1.  Many pastors, who have had no previous military background, since they have served in their local church in a key leadership role, often have problems with the whole "chain of command" concept.  There are other matters that could have been resolved with a Chaplain furthering his/her professional development.  To me it is not an issue of desire.  We want to serve.  We want to make a difference.  But the unwillingness to pursue a course like AFIADL 13 or even their specialty track often results in disservice.  Let me relate some of the "war stories" that I have encountered (either 1st hand knowledge or reported by a Squadron CC) during my CAP Chaplain career.

Chain of Command - Chaplains wanting to be referred to by rank ("Major" Last Name) rather than Chaplain; the chaplain who resigned because he didn't get his own private office (now the building where my squadron meets has 2 private offices -- one shared by the DCC/Testing officer and the other is the Commander's.  When the need arises, one is made available to me and a sign is posted: "Chaplain - Counseling in Session"); the chaplain who thinks because he outranks his commander, in complete disregard of the Squadron Commander's stated disappoval, shows the CAP cadets a sex education video produced for the USAFA Cadets; the unit chaplain who writes to a member of BOG regarding not receiving a training award.

Uniforms - Delighted to hear that you wear the USAF Style uniform proudly and properly.  It was my practice in the early years that before any CAP event, I would wear the uniform I was planning to wear and have a cadet inspect it.  But how many Chaplains have you seen wear the uniform who do not meet the weight standards?  I saw one chaplain wearing the USAF style uniform who had his wife sew an additional 6" inches from blue belt to extend another.  Worse than that, at a CSRSC on an active AFB a MLO (member of the Chaplain Service) comes into a session wearing his USAF style uniform with a cell phone, pager, first aid kit, canteen, and Swiss Army knife attached to his blue belt -- we thought he thought he was Batman.  Another chaplain, who read in the 39-1 about tabs, converted his USAF Blue Shirt into a clerical shirt/collar.

Moral Leadership - Chaplains who have wanted to cadets to sing hymns or receite "The Lord's Prayer" during ML; wanting to show a Billy Graham video as ML; using the devotional guide "Our Daily Bread" instead of the Values for Living ("Flight Time") curriculum.  When I have had the opportunity to teach on conducting a ML session, I have always made it point to state that "ML is not a time to either rehash or rehearse a Sunday sermon or Wednesday night Bible Study."

Believe me when I say that I have a litany of these kind of events.  And I believe that the majority of them would not have occurred had the Chaplain pursued the training offered in either the Professional Development program or the specialty track.

I am very appreciative of the time and energy that you and others (myself included) devote to our membership.  We perform a great service.  And I know that there are demands and the juggling of other responsibilities: family...work/church...commitments to other noble community causes.  But we can also do a disservice to the CAP membership if we simply do the minimal requirement of Level 1.  In my CAP Chaplain career, I am not pursuing rank for rank's sake...nor an extra bit of "bling".  Rather I am pursuing "excellence".  And if in the pursuit of excellence, something is changed on my epaulet or a 60 cent ribbon is earned, recognition is given...so be it.  But that is nothing compared to knowing that the assignment completed or the service rendered as been done in a professional way.  As one of my mentors shared with me: "Putting on the cross and a blue suit, does not make you a CAP Chaplain....you become one."

My beef concern is not with you or with others who are serving to the best of their ability...but with those with the attitude that they don't have to do anything else beyond Level 1 to improve their service.  IMHO, if AFIADL 13 was required on the front end, it would give many members -- including chaplains -- a better understanding of the organization and how we are to function within.

[jayleswo]

I was afraid my comment might not be taken as intended. My fault. To clarify, if someone commits to doing a job in CAP that only requires 2-3 hours a week and they can do that job in 2-3 hours a week, then perfect. Outstanding! Love to have you in my unit.

It's the members that agree to do a job that requires 2-3 hours per week, then put zero hours a week into it that is the problem. Or only do the job intermittently, so it's hard to know what to expect from them. Or the job that needs 5 hours a week and they only put in 1 or far less than what is required. I know family and job commitments compete with CAP. In which case, members need to balance their commitments appropriately. I do have the feeling that sometimes people do not take their commitments seriously enough and that's my concern.  Maybe this is a problem because the commander doesn't set expectations properly up front in what is required? I am not sure.

My goal is to spread the work around to as many members as possible so they don't have to put in an overwhelming amount of work into it to avoid the small core group of people that end up doing everything.

In any case, I am pretty happy with where my unit is today, we have some really good people and things are going well. Anyway, we are getting there. 

John Aylesworth, Lt Col
Commander, PCR-CA-151

[capchiro]

Chappie,

I think we are all singing to the "choir".  The slackers and people that only want to put in minimal time are not on this board, only us hardcore CAP'ers in my opinion.  I do think we need to think of CAP  like we think of our walk with Jesus (or your own handpicked deity).  Now before I burn down below or flames from here let me explain.  A second Lt. puts in his 2-3 hours week, he learns a little and may do even less, he works his real job hard and chases tail even harder.  He eventually does what he needs to and progresses to first Lt.  He puts in his 2-3 hours a week, learns a little more, does a little once in a while, does some admin, becomes somewhat interested in ES and earns his UDF badge.  He works hard in his real job and has found the girl of his dreams.  He eventually completes Level II and becomes a Captain.  He now puts in 2-3 hours a week, learns a little more, works as PAO, and has started his scanner training.  he still works hard at his job and he is about to be a father (yes, he did the right thing as an officer and gentleman and didn't touch her until he was married to her).  After several years, still putting in his 2-3 hours a week, he is still learning, doing more, started teaching the aerospace to the cadets, finished his private license and dreams of the day he can become an orientation pilot, works hard at work and still loves his wife and future cadets (cause that's what good CAP'ers do) and is plodding along.  Some day some one may ask him to step into a command position.  Does he need or want it?  that's up to each of us.  Is he trained for it?  I dare say he is qualified if not over qualified and all of this from 2-3 hours per week over a course of 8-10 years.  I know it doesn't always happen this way, but I truly believe the system was designed to work this way. JMHO

[ZigZag911]

While I agree that we should require some sort of ES, CP and AE requirment to the promotion system/specialty tracks we don't have to make everyone an expert in every area of of our three missions.

And on that we agree too (that's two in a row!)

[ZigZag911]

One thought... The "I'm just a volunteer" thing.  That mindset tends to lead to low expectations and mediocrity.

If a member agrees to a duty assignment, job, task or project then they should do it with the same level of attention, skill and commitment as they would anything else of importance. What kills me is people who take a job and then never really do it. When asked about it, the response is "Well, I'm just a volunteer". So, someone else (usually the Commander) has to do the job.

Is that really the kind of program people are interested in being part of? Is that the kind of organization that gains respect from our customers and other agencies we work with? On the face of it, we have some important missions as an organization to fulfill. Is that part of our retention problem? The people that join with high expectations leave because they are not fulfilled? The people that stay are those who are content with mediocrity. And a small core group of people are left with running the unit, then burning out?

I'm all for high standards and expectations, volunteer or not.

John Aylesworth, Lt Col
Commander, PCR-CA-151

Col. I respect your desire for high standards and expectations.  I personally am willing to say that CAP will get the very best I've got...2 to 3 hours a week!  I don't expect a promotion, nor will I get bent out of shape if I am not included in the decision making.  If my 2 to 3 hours a week are not sufficient, then I would hope that my unit commander and/or my wing chaplain would take me aside and say we really don't need what you have to offer us.  That's fine.  I'd have a lot of respect for that commander and/or chaplain.  I enjoy my work with my small squadron of cadets and seniors, and so far, they seem to appreciate my being there every week, leading Moral Leadership, encouraging, listening and trying to increase morale.  When I have the time (which isn't often) I work on doing what I need to do to be qualified as a mission chaplain.

I don't desire to climb CAP's corporate/military ladder.  I have no need to wear higher rank insignia...heck, I'll give back my Captain bars if bothers enough people.  Yet, with the little time I have to offer, I will do the very best I can in service to others.  If this makes me a "mediocre slacker"...so be it.

Chaplain, no one would dream of calling you a slacker, since it sounds like you are keeping the commitment that you made.

[lordmonar]

While I agree that we should require some sort of ES, CP and AE requirment to the promotion system/specialty tracks we don't have to make everyone an expert in every area of of our three missions.

And on that we agree too (that's two in a row!)

Gods! Isn't that one of the signs of the End Times!?