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Wannbe's (USDRC)

Started by JayT, March 12, 2010, 05:46:05 AM

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JayT

Here's a story I figured some of you would enjoy....

A couple of days ago, my partner and I stop at a pizza place around the corner from one of our hospitals for lunch. We park the rig, go inside, and as I'm walking in, I notice a guy dressed in woodland BDU's with a set of rail road tracks on his collar and an eight pointed cap on the table talking to a guy in civilian dress.

We get out order, and we sit on the table accross the guy when a women comes up and thanks him for his service. As the 'captain' turns, I see that he has 'USDRC' on his service tape, and remembered see this link on CAPTalk a while back (http://www.usdrc.us/). I didn't say anything the second or third civie came up and thanked him. I then had this conversation.

"Hey boss, what branch of service are you? I didn't think anyone was still wearing the BDU's except the Navy and some of the Air Force?"
"Well, I'm in, the ah United States Disaster Relief Command."
"Oh, so is that like part of the Army?"
"Well, not offically, we do a lot of training and stuff."
"So, you're under FEMA?"
"Well, no, but we are ready to response to emergencies and such."
"That's funny, because I've never seen you at any drills or anything."
"Oh, well, we do our own stuff. Like medical stuff and stuff for the red cross."
"So you're not part of the military or government, and you're wearing a military uniform, with military rank, in public?"
"Yeah, I have to leave now."

At which point my partner collapsed laughing and the Captain and his friend retreated.
"Eagerness and thrill seeking in others' misery is psychologically corrosive, and is also rampant in EMS. It's a natural danger of the job. It will be something to keep under control, something to fight against."

Майор Хаткевич


jimmydeanno

Seems like they have good intentions.  They even have a cadet program: http://www.usdrc.us/cadet_program.html
If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

lordmonar

Look at their awards and deocrations page....they stole CAP ribbons!  :o
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

jimmydeanno

Quote from: lordmonar on March 12, 2010, 07:07:31 AM
Look at their awards and deocrations page....they stole CAP ribbons!  :o

I only see one that looks remotely close, but even then I wouldn't say it is a "CAP" ribbon.  Our "leadership ribbon" has similar counterparts used by JROTC, AFROTC and other organizations.
If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

Brad

They also borrowed the NJROTC Color Guard ribbon and turned it upside down, haha...

Anyways....where are these guys found? I saw no place to locate units, are they moreso local to New York?
Brad Lee
Maj, CAP
Assistant Deputy Chief of Staff, Communications
Mid-Atlantic Region
K4RMN

James Shaw

Their command base is made up of mainly generals. A 4 Star and alot of 2 stars. WOW.
Jim Shaw
USN: 1987-1992
GANG: 1996-1998
CAP:2000 - Current
USCGA:2018 - Current
SGAUS: 2017 - Current

NIN

Quote from: caphistorian on March 12, 2010, 12:12:34 PM
Their command base is made up of mainly generals. A 4 Star and alot of 2 stars. WOW.


Betcha thats why the US Ranger Corps got started.  Too many generals here...
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

James Shaw

From the looks of it the Commanding General Malvin S Tarkin actually has a law enforcement background. Found him on google search. Atleast they show their "Chain of Command" on their website. Interesting to see.
Jim Shaw
USN: 1987-1992
GANG: 1996-1998
CAP:2000 - Current
USCGA:2018 - Current
SGAUS: 2017 - Current

Bobble

Their webpage makes them seem like they are a national organization, but they are pretty much only found here on Long Island and I believe Missouri (I could be wrong, it's been awhile since I loooked it up).  It is basically a pay-for-grade organization set-up as a non-profit - send them a check in the right amount, and you can be whatever Company, Field Grade or General grade officer you wish. The have both Woodland BDU's and US Army dress uniforms, the only thing differentiating them from active/reserve duty being the USDRC patch on the left shoulder (and of course, they typically don't meet any grooming standards [full facial hair] and sometimes wear the wrong cover, as JThemann noted).   My web searching told me that a few years back (within a year after 9/11), some of them were in the New York Guard (the SDF for New York) for awhile holding Officer grades, but not anymore.  I suppose they weren't advancing as fast as they wanted, so they decided to go their own way.  Despite what their webpage says, they have no cadet program.  It's all bogus.

I found out about them when I first joined CAP, and they marched (or rather rode in a restored M-151) behind us in our local Memorial Day parade.  Before the parade started, I asked pretty much the same questions JThemann asked, and of course, got pretty much the same response.   At the parade's end, the parade officials actually had them hand out the wreaths to Girl Scouts/Cub Scouts/Boy Scouts to place in front of the memorials.  I later talked with the parade organizers, Town and County Veterans officials, and the local VFW post, about what USDRC folks are and what they aren't.  They are all aware of the situation, but the USDRC folks are politically connected at the local level (Fund Raisers, Benefit functions) and no one wants to say anything.

You can bet that I have informed my squadron that these individuals due not deserve the military respect and courtesies normally due to active, reserve, or retired military personnel, and in all likelyhood, we will be marching in a different parade this coming Memorial Day.

Their leader, General Mal Tarkin is (was?) the Auxiliary Police Chief  for a town in Nassau County, and AFAIK, that's  about the extent of his LEO background.  No mention of any military experience in anything I have seen.  If there was, you would think it would be prominently noted on the USDRC webpage.  I think they are very concious about violating 'Stolen Valor' guidelines.
R. Litzke, Capt, CAP
NER-NY-153

"Men WILL wear underpants."

RiverAux

Quote from: jimmydeanno on March 12, 2010, 05:57:54 AM
Seems like they have good intentions.  They even have a cadet program: http://www.usdrc.us/cadet_program.html
I'm not sure I'd agree that their intentions are good.  Their supposed purposes may be good, but I'm not sure those purposes are exactly why they have set up their own organization.

JayT

Quote from: Bobble on March 12, 2010, 02:13:50 PM
Their webpage makes them seem like they are a national organization, but they are pretty much only found here on Long Island and I believe Missouri (I could be wrong, it's been awhile since I loooked it up).  It is basically a pay-for-grade organization set-up as a non-profit - send them a check in the right amount, and you can be whatever Company, Field Grade or General grade officer you wish. The have both Woodland BDU's and US Army dress uniforms, the only thing differentiating them from active/reserve duty being the USDRC patch on the left shoulder (and of course, they typically don't meet any grooming standards [full facial hair] and sometimes wear the wrong cover, as JThemann noted).   My web searching told me that a few years back (within a year after 9/11), some of them were in the New York Guard (the SDF for New York) for awhile holding Officer grades, but not anymore.  I suppose they weren't advancing as fast as they wanted, so they decided to go their own way.  Despite what their webpage says, they have no cadet program.  It's all bogus.


Their leader, General Mal Tarkin is (was?) the Auxiliary Police Chief  for a town in Nassau County, and AFAIK, that's  about the extent of his LEO background.  No mention of any military experience in anything I have seen.  If there was, you would think it would be prominently noted on the USDRC webpage.  I think they are very concious about violating 'Stolen Valor' guidelines.

The funny thing was, I didn't realize that there PO Box was in Jericho. I was parked at the pizza place next to the Chinese place and Dunkin Donuts on Old Country Road by Winthrop University Hospital. We later saw the guy walk around the block a few times in a gortex parka.
"Eagerness and thrill seeking in others' misery is psychologically corrosive, and is also rampant in EMS. It's a natural danger of the job. It will be something to keep under control, something to fight against."

RiverAux

Quotethe guy when a women comes up and thanks him for his service. ....... I didn't say anything the second or third civie came up and thanked him.
Probably their real intentions...

Bobble

You know, what I find really interesting (or perhaps sad) is that these USDRC guys all seem to well educated, accomplished in their chosen fields, and long-standing members of their communities.  Mascolo and Rodin are dentists with their own practices, Mantia is an MD specializing in gastroenterology, and Abramowitz is a rabbi for a Reform synagogue.  You might think that they would have better things to do than fish for salutes.  Go figure.
R. Litzke, Capt, CAP
NER-NY-153

"Men WILL wear underpants."

Seabee219

  It could be that they want to be an officer and have people salute them, some of them did serve in the military, but they are out now.  Maybe some want to do something for there city or country like we do in CAP.  But they should be doing it the right way. Maybe the group is not well organized.
CAP Capt, Retired US Navy Seabee.
  MRO, MS, MO, UDF, GT3, MSA, CUL
1. Lead by example, and take care of your people

vmstan

#15
Even by their own standards he is in violation of uniform policy.

http://www.usdrc.us/uniform.html
QuoteNON-PERMISSIBLE USE OF THE USDRC UNIFORM

The wearing of the USDRC uniform is prohibited as follows:
...
(4)  The uniform will not be worn in public drinking establishments.
(5)  The uniform will not be worn just to be wearing a uniform.
MICHAEL M STANCLIFT, 1st Lt, CAP
Public Affairs Officer, NCR-KS-055, Heartland Squadron

Quote"I wish to compliment NHQ on this extremely well and clearly written regulation.
This publication once and for all should establish the uniform pattern to be followed
throughout Civil Air Patrol."

1949 Uniform and Insignia Committee comment on CAP Reg 35-4

a2capt


..and if the pizza place could be considered a "drinking establishment"...


Quote from: [url]http://www.usdrc.us/uniform.htmlNON-PERMISSIBLE USE OF THE USDRC UNIFORM


The wearing of the USDRC uniform is prohibited as follows:


(1) The uniform will not be worn in connection with the promotion of any political or commercial interest. It is also not to be worn on any military installation or in DOD buildings unless installation commander or manager has approved such visit.


(2) The uniform will not be worn while the USDRC member is participating in picket lines, marches, rallies or public demonstrations.


(3) The uniform will not be worn when wearing of the uniform would discredit the USDRC, or Federal Military.


(4)  The uniform will not be worn in public drinking establishments.


(5)  The uniform will not be worn just to be wearing a uniform.


Even people with lots of credentials can be misleading, corrupt and bogus.


Sounds like the organization was started by someone disgruntled with CAP, or similar, or they did a lot of research on who to "clone". Either way..

heliodoc

Those educated guys went about it the wrong way

The got themselves into a BDU uniform

Those poor guys realiized that the ONLY way to get recognized was to don a uniform of some sort

DRC probably needed some recognition like CAP's favorite guy, Pineada and his USRC

The DRC went about it the wrong way....getting into a uniform....

If they did not.....CAPTalkers would have never known the difference ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

James Shaw

I would'nt be hard on them. We dont know them personally or there reasoning.
Jim Shaw
USN: 1987-1992
GANG: 1996-1998
CAP:2000 - Current
USCGA:2018 - Current
SGAUS: 2017 - Current

RiverAux

It seems that most of these sorts of wannabe groups tend to be folks that used to be in one of the State Defense Forces.  Haven't seen to many former CAP people starting them (except for our former national commander).

Parsifal

Quote from: Bobble on March 12, 2010, 02:56:00 PM
You know, what I find really interesting (or perhaps sad) is that these USDRC guys all seem to well educated, accomplished in their chosen fields, and long-standing members of their communities......You might think that they would have better things to do than fish for salutes.  Go figure.

There are already plenty of volunteer organizations begging for such talent and experience, or simply another pair of hands to help carry the load.  To me, it seems frivolous & wasteful to create (or join) an organization that (1) probably is not operationally functional and/or (2) competes with other agencies for manpower and other resources.

Eclipse

#21
We're walking the pot/kettle line pretty close with a discussion like this, but with that said, one of the
reasons I appreciate and continue to serve with CAP is the direct connection to both a real Congressional mandate / mission
and the military affiliation, including all the administrivial pain which comes with that affiliation.

My personal experience with these types of organizations are they are mostly people who can't be bothered to step up to even the
the extracurricular requirements that an organization like CAP requires.  I joined for the mission and the service the uniforms are
part of that, but not the main part.  These guys are usually upside down on that.

"That Others May Zoom"

Spike

Quote from: Eclipse on March 12, 2010, 04:08:57 PM
We're walking the pot/kettle line pretty close with a discussion like this, but with that said, one of the
reasons I appreciate and continue to serve with CAP is the direct connection to both a real Congressional mandate / mission
and the military affiliation, including all the administrivial pain which comes with that affiliation.

My personal experience with these types of organizations are they are mostly people who can be bothered to step up to even the
the extracurricular requirements that an organization like CAP requires.  I joined for the mission and the service the uniforms are
part of that, but not the main part.  These guys are usually upside down on that.

Well, we are a official Auxiliary of a Uniformed Service.  We also have the whole congressional charter thing in our corner like you said.  We actually have three missions to perform as ordered by the Federal Government. 

CAP is a heck of a way up the "real deal" food chain than this group.  How many of us can name Cadets that we helped get on the right path?  How many of us have actually augmented the Air Force through search and rescue and AF assigned missions?  Counter Drug anyone?

We play a larger role than any of us would like to say.  At least in my corner of the field.  I am a member of CAP to help kids recognize how to make good life decisions.  To let the local public know the advantages of Aerospace dominance in the world, and occasionally find a person who can not help themselves.  There is nothing that makes me happier than when a Cadet graduates High School, or a family writes to say thanks for finding Grandpa. 

However, lets not beat these other organizations up too much.  That only makes us look collectively uneducated and foolish.  Let the other organizations fail on their own, and we will still be here in the long run. 

Eclispse, this was not directed at you, I just wanted to reinforce some things you said.

The CyBorg is destroyed

#23
Quote from: NIN on March 12, 2010, 12:17:34 PM
Betcha thats why the US Ranger Corps got started.  Too many generals here...

My first thought was of the US Ranger Corps.

Can't wearing some of this bling get them in hot water under the Stolen Valor Act?  They are not one of the seven U.S. Uniformed Services, their Guard/Reserve/Auxiliary components, or State Defense Forces.

If they'd affiliate with a local CERT and offer their services that way, that would be good.  But the LE/ES types who work with CERT would likely "encourage" them to lose the brass.
Exiled from GLR-MI-011

Short Field

Here are a few other wannabe sites - they tend to change their websites and names a bit as pressure builds up on them:

http://www.americanvolunteerreserve.org/
http://www.usavr.net/
http://www.airgrdsar.8k.com/
http://www.pownetwork.org/phonies/phonies253.htm

Some might say lay off of them, but I will slam them every chance I get.  I had another link I can't find now where one of these orgs "Lt Gen" presented a local community award to a young Marine since he was the highest ranking "officer" there.  It was only later that the facts came out.  The guy just showed up, talked the talk, and ended up getting seated at the head table.  There were several retired Army and USMC officers there who got suspicious later and checked the guy out. 
SAR/DR MP, ARCHOP, AOBD, GTM1, GBD, LSC, FASC, LO, PIO, MSO(T), & IC2
Wilson #2640

vmstan

Quote from: Eclipse on March 12, 2010, 04:08:57 PM
We're walking the pot/kettle line pretty close with a discussion like this.

I think we of all people should do our best to call out people like this. We have a vested interest in making sure that the professional image and good name of the official military auxiliaries and volunteers isn't potentially slandered by those without any actual state or federal authority or backing to be wearing the uniform. If someone looks at people like this group, and realizes they are just a bunch of people running around in uniforms calling each other "General" ... it's harder for them to see us and think we're anything different.
MICHAEL M STANCLIFT, 1st Lt, CAP
Public Affairs Officer, NCR-KS-055, Heartland Squadron

Quote"I wish to compliment NHQ on this extremely well and clearly written regulation.
This publication once and for all should establish the uniform pattern to be followed
throughout Civil Air Patrol."

1949 Uniform and Insignia Committee comment on CAP Reg 35-4

RiverAux

#26
These sort of guys are a regular topic on state defense force discussion boards and the sad fact is that no level of government is actually willing to spend any time dealing with these folks.  I don't see the percentage in CAP worrying about them. 

The CyBorg is destroyed

It might be a bit of a giggle if, for whatever situation, I am in CAP uniform and encounter one of these self-styled "Generals" who may be expecting a salute and try to dress me down for not saluting...it would be even funnier if some of the Guard SNCO's I'm acquainted with would be in that situation... :P
Exiled from GLR-MI-011

tdepp

Has anyone ever been on a mission where you ran into these other groups or otherwise encountered them during a disaster?  I've never heard of these groups until reading about them here.

Todd D. Epp, LL.M., Capt, CAP
Sioux Falls Composite Squadron Deputy Commander for Seniors
SD Wing Public Affairs Officer
Wing website: http://sdcap.us    Squadron website: http://www.siouxfallscap.com
Author of "This Day in Civil Air Patrol History" @ http://caphistory.blogspot.com

capchiro

We must tread lightly, because many of us in the inner circle are Admirals of the Navy of the great State of Nebraska.  I have seen many of us strutting around in Commodore uniforms, slash, sabre, and medals attempting to influence the opposite sex, or as we like to say "recruiting"..  Hehe..
Lt. Col. Harry E. Siegrist III, CAP
Commander
Sweetwater Comp. Sqdn.
GA154

flyboy53

Yeah, I could see it now...who salutes who?

Майор Хаткевич

on the POWNetwork website:

QuoteFrom: "Rosemary Hackney" <ltcrose@tds.net>
To: <info@pownetwork.org>
Subject: USNDFSCOM
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 22:26:45 -0600

Just what is this? Most of this material is in error and USNDFSCOM did try a merger with USJMFC (DEC 2004)but found that that organization did not live up to their information and we went our separate ways ( May 2005). The info  printed here is that of the USJMFC.. including the addy at the Pentagon.We have no dealings with USJMFC whatsoever.

We are NOT a malitia. Never have been. We do NOT wear military sanctioned uniforms. We are involved with CERT and the FEMA emergency services training to be ready to help in emergency situations ( like Red cross or Civil Air Patrol). A lot of us are in the Civil Air Patrol). Actually a lot of us are also in the Civil Air Patrol.

We have given courses on ARE YOU READY ( FEMA 22 ). Helped in tornado disasters. Among other things from state to state.

We have taken many of the FEMA courses dealing with NIMS and CERT  and ICS. Upon completion of the required number of courses, Diplomas are given to signify achievement levels throughout the ICS/NIMS programs.  We are working on accreditation.

We are a charted 501C. We are incorporated. Our DC address is on Massachusetts Avenue.

I do not see that any of this has been updated and looks almost like a vendetta. Or at least public harrassment or humiliation.

Rosemary Hackney

Vice Chief of Operations

NOACC  USNDFSCOM

cc  CC USNDFSCOM

flyguy06

Quote from: JThemann on March 12, 2010, 05:46:05 AM


.
"So you're not part of the military or government, and you're wearing a military uniform, with military rank, in public?"


Law Enforcement Officers wear military uniforms and wear military rank as well.

PhoenixRisen

Quote from: flyguy06 on March 13, 2010, 02:59:03 AM
Quote from: JThemann on March 12, 2010, 05:46:05 AM


.
"So you're not part of the military or government, and you're wearing a military uniform, with military rank, in public?"


Law Enforcement Officers wear military uniforms and wear military rank as well.

I think LEO's are covered under the "government" part.

JayT

Quote from: flyguy06 on March 13, 2010, 02:59:03 AM
Quote from: JThemann on March 12, 2010, 05:46:05 AM


.
"So you're not part of the military or government, and you're wearing a military uniform, with military rank, in public?"


Law Enforcement Officers wear military uniforms and wear military rank as well.


You'd be hard pressed to find many departments that wear BDU's or Dress Blues as a daily duty uniform.
"Eagerness and thrill seeking in others' misery is psychologically corrosive, and is also rampant in EMS. It's a natural danger of the job. It will be something to keep under control, something to fight against."

SarDragon

Quote from: flyguy06 on March 13, 2010, 02:59:03 AM
Quote from: JThemann on March 12, 2010, 05:46:05 AM


.
"So you're not part of the military or government, and you're wearing a military uniform, with military rank, in public?"


Law Enforcement Officers wear military uniforms and wear military rank as well.

I think that should read "military-style," just like CAP members wear AF-style uniforms. There are similarities; that is unavoidable. But they are typically easily identifiable as LEOs, and not military members.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Spaceman3750

They wear a limited subset of military rank generally on distinctive uniforms. The only time I've ever seen a LEO in BDUs was when they were doing something tactical (i.e. SWAT). YMMV

flyguy06

Quote from: JThemann on March 13, 2010, 03:04:22 AM
Quote from: flyguy06 on March 13, 2010, 02:59:03 AM
Quote from: JThemann on March 12, 2010, 05:46:05 AM


.
"So you're not part of the military or government, and you're wearing a military uniform, with military rank, in public?"


Law Enforcement Officers wear military uniforms and wear military rank as well.


You'd be hard pressed to find many departments that wear BDU's or Dress Blues as a daily duty uniform.

Big departments that have full time SWAT teams wear BDU's everyday

JayT

#38
Quote from: flyguy06 on March 13, 2010, 04:26:01 AM
Quote from: JThemann on March 13, 2010, 03:04:22 AM
Quote from: flyguy06 on March 13, 2010, 02:59:03 AM
Quote from: JThemann on March 12, 2010, 05:46:05 AM


.
"So you're not part of the military or government, and you're wearing a military uniform, with military rank, in public?"


Law Enforcement Officers wear military uniforms and wear military rank as well.


You'd be hard pressed to find many departments that wear BDU's or Dress Blues as a daily duty uniform.

Big departments that have full time SWAT teams wear BDU's everyday

Again, how many of them wear them day to day on patrol?
"Eagerness and thrill seeking in others' misery is psychologically corrosive, and is also rampant in EMS. It's a natural danger of the job. It will be something to keep under control, something to fight against."

tdepp

Quote from: Eclipse on March 12, 2010, 04:08:57 PM
We're walking the pot/kettle line pretty close with a discussion like this, but with that said, one of the
reasons I appreciate and continue to serve with CAP is the direct connection to both a real Congressional mandate / mission
and the military affiliation, including all the administrivial pain which comes with that affiliation.

Eclipse:

I was thinking the same thing re pot/kettle and what some people think of us and our uniforms and ranks.  My wife is probably in that group.  She thinks that anyone calling me "Capt. Epp" is just plain goofy if I'm not in one of the military branches.  In part, the raging USAF v. CSU v. Fat and Fuzzies debate in another thread on this board points to some people being maybe a little too concerned about uniforms and ribbons and not enough about missions and service.  So we have our own agita regarding unis and ribbons that some might find peculiar, including some in our big brother/sister, the USAF. 

The big difference, as my buddy Eclipse (and one of the future judges of "Project CAP", our new "Project Runway" inspired TV show to design a new dress uni) aptly points out, is that we are a Congressionally chartered auxiliary to the USAF with direct ties to the USAF via our missions, funding and governance.  We also have a lengthy history of service to the AAC/AAF/USAF that provides street cred. 

I agree, these other groups strike me as posers, but we also need to be realistic about how others, including the military, view us as well.  I'd encourage these AVR folks or whoever they are to join CAP or the Red Cross or their local volunteer fire department if they want to do disaster services.  And if they want to do funeral honor guards, join the VFW or American Legion or DAV or one of the other veterans' groups that wear their own uniforms that echo their prior military service.  The VFW and AL memberships are aging and could use an infusion of Viet Nam, Cold War, and Iraq/Afghanistan vets.  (And so could we.) 

Uniforms mean something.  We of all people should understand that.
Todd D. Epp, LL.M., Capt, CAP
Sioux Falls Composite Squadron Deputy Commander for Seniors
SD Wing Public Affairs Officer
Wing website: http://sdcap.us    Squadron website: http://www.siouxfallscap.com
Author of "This Day in Civil Air Patrol History" @ http://caphistory.blogspot.com

flyboy53

Would she feel the same way if you were a captain or lieutenant in a volunteer fire department or ambulance squad?

The sad thing is that I question if you would really see these guys at a disaster or, if they were, what their real roles might be. Its another reason why we as an organization should strive to be as professional as possible in everything we do. It's that professionalism that will draw more gold stars from the Air Force and gain us greater credibility and respect as an organization.

Also, you forgot to mention the various state guards or state defense forces that are out there.

And, I now see why it was so important to go through all the NIMS stuff. Without it, the CAP might be in the same boat.


mbrown

I think it's sad that these people have to join these 'organizations'. Also like others, my mind immediately jumped to USRC. And while some others said that these groups only help make us look better towards the Air Force, what about the people, who whenever they see people running around in BDUs with blue name tapes that say 'Civil Air Patrol' they just think we're a bunch of wannabe's.
Michael S. Brown, C/2nd. Lt.
U.S. Civil Air Patrol

Eclipse

Your bearing, attitude, and responses when asked will decide their impression.

What I tell my people is that we don't benefit from the inherent "cool points" that those in the active services get automatically, we need to be on our best behavior at all times and insure we characterize our role and place in the universe honestly.

"That Others May Zoom"

RADIOMAN015

Quote from: JThemann on March 12, 2010, 05:46:05 AM
Here's a story I figured some of you would enjoy....

I notice a guy dressed in woodland BDU's with a set of rail road tracks on his collar and an eight pointed cap on the table talking to a guy in civilian dress.

We get out order, and we sit on the table accross the guy when a women comes up and thanks him for his service. As the 'captain' turns, I see that he has 'USDRC' on his service tape, and remembered see this link on CAPTalk a while back (http://www.usdrc.us/). I didn't say anything the second or third civie came up and thanked him.
This same type of mistaken identity takes place also with CAP personnel dressed in military type BDU's.   Again this is why I advocate us (especially seniors) going to the Blue BDU's and also Blue Flight Suits.  I would hope that at least CAP personnel would state who they really are and what we do and not take credit for thanks for something they are not >:(

I think it is better for CAP to be "distinctive" and known/identified as Civil Air Patrol rather than be mistaken for being military personnel.

As far as this organization goes, I did a quick google news search and could not come up with even one news article about this organization.  So apparently they either have no PAO policy; are secretative of what they do; or really aren't doing anything other than running around with BDU's and stopping in eat establishments to be "thanked for their service" :-[
RM

mbrown

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on March 13, 2010, 07:34:59 PM
Quote from: JThemann on March 12, 2010, 05:46:05 AM
Here's a story I figured some of you would enjoy....

I notice a guy dressed in woodland BDU's with a set of rail road tracks on his collar and an eight pointed cap on the table talking to a guy in civilian dress.

We get out order, and we sit on the table accross the guy when a women comes up and thanks him for his service. As the 'captain' turns, I see that he has 'USDRC' on his service tape, and remembered see this link on CAPTalk a while back (http://www.usdrc.us/). I didn't say anything the second or third civie came up and thanked him.
This same type of mistaken identity takes place also with CAP personnel dressed in military type BDU's.   Again this is why I advocate us (especially seniors) going to the Blue BDU's and also Blue Flight Suits.  I would hope that at least CAP personnel would state who they really are and what we do and not take credit for thanks for something they are not >:(

I think it is better for CAP to be "distinctive" and known/identified as Civil Air Patrol rather than be mistaken for being military personnel.

As far as this organization goes, I did a quick google news search and could not come up with even one news article about this organization.  So apparently they either have no PAO policy; are secretative of what they do; or really aren't doing anything other than running around with BDU's and stopping in eat establishments to be "thanked for their service" :-[
RM

I don't think we need to wear the Distinctive Uniforms, the problem is that this person wasn't honest to those people in the restaurant and wanted the thanks. I think there's nothing wrong with us wearing our uniforms and doing our jobs. This person was just there to take credit. 
Michael S. Brown, C/2nd. Lt.
U.S. Civil Air Patrol

Hawk200

Quote from: mbrown on March 13, 2010, 07:41:40 PM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on March 13, 2010, 07:34:59 PM
Quote from: JThemann on March 12, 2010, 05:46:05 AM
Here's a story I figured some of you would enjoy....

I notice a guy dressed in woodland BDU's with a set of rail road tracks on his collar and an eight pointed cap on the table talking to a guy in civilian dress.

We get out order, and we sit on the table accross the guy when a women comes up and thanks him for his service. As the 'captain' turns, I see that he has 'USDRC' on his service tape, and remembered see this link on CAPTalk a while back (http://www.usdrc.us/). I didn't say anything the second or third civie came up and thanked him.
This same type of mistaken identity takes place also with CAP personnel dressed in military type BDU's.   Again this is why I advocate us (especially seniors) going to the Blue BDU's and also Blue Flight Suits.  I would hope that at least CAP personnel would state who they really are and what we do and not take credit for thanks for something they are not >:(

I think it is better for CAP to be "distinctive" and known/identified as Civil Air Patrol rather than be mistaken for being military personnel.

As far as this organization goes, I did a quick google news search and could not come up with even one news article about this organization.  So apparently they either have no PAO policy; are secretative of what they do; or really aren't doing anything other than running around with BDU's and stopping in eat establishments to be "thanked for their service" :-[
RM

I don't think we need to wear the Distinctive Uniforms, the problem is that this person wasn't honest to those people in the restaurant and wanted the thanks. I think there's nothing wrong with us wearing our uniforms and doing our jobs. This person was just there to take credit.
I'd agree. I've taken the time to educate people on what Civil Air Patrol is, and explain the difference between us and regular military. It's a little easier to explain the differences when I tell them I'm both, although it raises a few eyebrows when the former military ones find that I'm enlisted military, and officer CAP. But it has also resulted in new recruits a few times that ended up to our benefit.

The issue of people looking for "thanks" still puzzles me. Personally, I feel a little awkward in some of the profuse thanks I have received in the past for my military service. I've been around a while, but I've never done anything dangerous or heroic that would merit the label of "hero" that I've been given at times. I've served, but it's not the same. Some people have funny ideas about what heroes actually are.

tdepp

Quote from: flyboy1 on March 13, 2010, 06:17:15 PM
And, I now see why it was so important to go through all the NIMS stuff. Without it, the CAP might be in the same boat.

Fly:
Agreed.  The FEMA training and requirements not only helps prepare us for disaster missions but also gives us credibility with our counterparts who are in LE, fire/rescue, emergency management, etc.  They take the same courses.  It shows our members' commitment to training and standards that are similar to theirs.

I've talked to some old timers in the US Coast Guard Auxiliary and some of their members have been reluctant to embrace the FEMA training.  (I believe they have a similar set of requirements as CAP does so if people don't do them, they can't be on certain missions.  There are still other duties USCGA auxiliarists can do, if I understand their organization correctly.)  CAP is an interesting dichotomy of USAF/corporate as well as professional/volunteer.  We are expected to be as professional as the professionals while we are volunteering.  Might seem like an odd concept but when I meet my local volunteer firefighters, they have the same attitude: we may not be paid but we're trained and professional.

If these guys in the AVR and the like are wanting to feel important by wearing Army uniforms and paying to be "generals" and thanked for their "service," that's pathetic.   
Todd D. Epp, LL.M., Capt, CAP
Sioux Falls Composite Squadron Deputy Commander for Seniors
SD Wing Public Affairs Officer
Wing website: http://sdcap.us    Squadron website: http://www.siouxfallscap.com
Author of "This Day in Civil Air Patrol History" @ http://caphistory.blogspot.com

vmstan

Quote from: mbrown on March 13, 2010, 07:13:50 PM
I think it's sad that these people have to join these 'organizations'. Also like others, my mind immediately jumped to USRC. And while some others said that these groups only help make us look better towards the Air Force, what about the people, who whenever they see people running around in BDUs with blue name tapes that say 'Civil Air Patrol' they just think we're a bunch of wannabe's.

I just got back from doing parade "security" with another senior member and about 12 cadets. I walked the entire route of the parade multiple times with the other SMWOG. He was in BDUs and I was in the blue polo because I didn't get the name tapes for mine until last night (finally) and wasn't able to get it put on in time and I refuse to wear an incomplete uniform.

Anyway, point is, in the 4 hours I spent walking around with him he received many "thank you for your service" comments and even salutes from various people including a lot of small kids. However, they'd look at me and could care less who I was... even though he and I have almost identical levels of experience within CAP. (I will say he was prior duty Air Force, so he deserved it on other levels.)

I think most people don't really have an understanding for what the various branches are, what "active duty vs reserve vs national guard vs auxiliary vs wannabes" or what all the ranks even really mean.
MICHAEL M STANCLIFT, 1st Lt, CAP
Public Affairs Officer, NCR-KS-055, Heartland Squadron

Quote"I wish to compliment NHQ on this extremely well and clearly written regulation.
This publication once and for all should establish the uniform pattern to be followed
throughout Civil Air Patrol."

1949 Uniform and Insignia Committee comment on CAP Reg 35-4

mbrown

#48
QuoteThe issue of people looking for "thanks" still puzzles me. Personally, I feel a little awkward in some of the profuse thanks I have received in the past for my military service. I've been around a while, but I've never done anything dangerous or heroic that would merit the label of "hero" that I've been given at times. I've served, but it's not the same. Some people have funny ideas about what heroes actually are.

I too find it awkward when people 'thank' me for my 'civil air patrol service' and even more awkward when you try to explain to them that we are not military but an auxiliary, and they still don't get it. And I would also agree that some people have funny ideas about what heroes actually are
Michael S. Brown, C/2nd. Lt.
U.S. Civil Air Patrol

Spike

#49
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on March 13, 2010, 07:34:59 PM
This same type of mistaken identity takes place also with CAP personnel dressed in military type BDU's.   Again this is why I advocate us (especially seniors) going to the Blue BDU's and also Blue Flight Suits.  I would hope that at least CAP personnel would state who they really are and what we do and not take credit for thanks for something they are not >:(

I think it is better for CAP to be "distinctive" and known/identified as Civil Air Patrol rather than be mistaken for being military personnel.

Radio......we have heard this here on CAPTALK before.  You are in the minority, and well frankly, many of us are tired of hearing this same thing over and over again. 

I guess you missed the bright blue and white branchtapes on the BDU's that say "Civil Air Patrol"??  How about the polo shirt?  The Air Force wears a Polo Shirt now.....do you want us to get out of that.  The Blue Flight Suits and Blue BDU's CAN and HAVE been mistaken for military before.  In fact......the military used to wear similar items.  I think one area in the AF wore a blue flight suit up until last year if I am not mistaken.

Stop with this put-down of CAP and it's members for choosing to wear the uniforms that the Government says we can wear legally.

Strick

#50
Quote from: Spike on March 13, 2010, 10:23:36 PM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on March 13, 2010, 07:34:59 PM
This same type of mistaken identity takes place also with CAP personnel dressed in military type BDU's.   Again this is why I advocate us (especially seniors) going to the Blue BDU's and also Blue Flight Suits.  I would hope that at least CAP personnel would state who they really are and what we do and not take credit for thanks for something they are not >:(

I think it is better for CAP to be "distinctive" and known/identified as Civil Air Patrol rather than be mistaken for being military personnel.

Radio......we have heard this here on CAPTALK before.  You are in the minority, and well frankly, many of us are tired of hearing this same thing over and over again. 

I guess you missed the bright blue and white branchtapes on the BDU's that say "Civil Air Patrol"??  How about the polo shirt?  The Air Force wears a Polo Shirt now.....do you want us to get out of that.  The Blue Flight Suits and Blue BDU's CAN and HAVE been mistaken for military before.  In fact......the military used to wear similar items.  I think one area in the AF wore a blue flight suit up until last year if I am not mistaken.

Stop with this put-down of CAP and it's members for choosing to wear the uniforms that the Government says we can wear legally.

+1
[darn]atio memoriae

flyboy53

And here's another big also!

Those blue utility uniforms and flight suits are worn by special duty aircrews and people like transient maintenance so that argument is is so wet it's drowning!


Майор Хаткевич



But then on the other hand...the main use of the BDU cloth for us is SAR (outside of CP). Not that blue is perfect, but sure as hell better than Woodlawn when trying to get noticed by aircrew in the middle of the woods.


raivo

Quote[The uniform] is also not to be worn on any military installation or in DOD buildings unless installation commander or manager has approved such visit.

Gee, can't imagine why. ::)

CAP Member, 2000-20??
USAF Officer, 2009-2018
Recipient of a Mitchell Award Of Irrelevant Number

"No combat-ready unit has ever passed inspection. No inspection-ready unit has ever survived combat."

Hawk200

Quote from: USAFaux2004 on March 14, 2010, 03:19:23 AMNot that blue is perfect, but sure as hell better than Woodlawn when trying to get noticed by aircrew in the middle of the woods.
What's better is orange. Like that vest you're supposed to be wearing when you're in the woods on CAP business.

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: Hawk200 on March 14, 2010, 04:11:48 AM
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on March 14, 2010, 03:19:23 AMNot that blue is perfect, but sure as hell better than Woodlawn when trying to get noticed by aircrew in the middle of the woods.
What's better is orange. Like that vest you're supposed to be wearing when you're in the woods on CAP business.

Put on some gear, which tends to be US Surplus, and the vest becomes obscure. This is where I'm actually ok with the Orange hats that people wear in some wings.

Hawk200

Quote from: USAFaux2004 on March 14, 2010, 04:17:31 AM
Put on some gear, which tends to be US Surplus, and the vest becomes obscure. This is where I'm actually ok with the Orange hats that people wear in some wings.
Ways around that.

Even if we did go to blue BDU's, I doubt it would eliminate a hi vis vest. So an argument that blue is more suitable isn't really a good one.

To top it off, the only way to really deal with a vest being covered is to require gear that maintains the same high visibility. I doubt anyone is going to be the least bit inclined to replace all their gear with hi vis stuff.

"Blue is better" fails from that aspect.

I am thinking an orange hat is a good idea. Not difficult to do. Many outdoors stores carry a plain one that is easily appropriated, and would be very practical.

flyboy53

Quote from: Hawk200 on March 14, 2010, 04:43:48 AM
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on March 14, 2010, 04:17:31 AM
Put on some gear, which tends to be US Surplus, and the vest becomes obscure. This is where I'm actually ok with the Orange hats that people wear in some wings.
Ways around that.

Even if we did go to blue BDU's, I doubt it would eliminate a hi vis vest. So an argument that blue is more suitable isn't really a good one.

To top it off, the only way to really deal with a vest being covered is to require gear that maintains the same high visibility. I doubt anyone is going to be the least bit inclined to replace all their gear with hi vis stuff.

"Blue is better" fails from that aspect.

I am thinking an orange hat is a good idea. Not difficult to do. Many outdoors stores carry a plain one that is easily appropriated, and would be very practical.


AGREE! From the perspective of an aircrew member, I can tell you that's a four gold star recommendation. Otherwise, forget trying to look for a ground crew in a wooded area. The NESA hats should be in orange and someone ought to tell the big uniform monoply in the sky.

wuzafuzz

Aaaarrrrgggh!  I hate when CAPTalk times out while I'm authoring my masterpiece.   :'(

RE: this USDRC group.  Strange.  Anytime fancy titles, uniforms, and gear eclipse your mission you are firmly in the Twilight Zone and deserve all the negative attention Hamsexy.com can throw your way.   >:D

As to whether those guys and gals should join an existing service group, I say "it depends."  If you want to provide a reasonable service like CERT or basic GSAR and existing groups could care less, then go for it.  Or if an existing group is fatally infested with weirdos and freaks, then start a new one.  Just focus on your mission instead of bling and gear.  Make sure form follows function.  Ensure your group is reasonably trained, organized, and affiliated with or sponsored by the folks who would call on your services.
"You can't stop the signal, Mal."

Seabee219

  I think that what I would do is wear my uniform the best I know how, and say proudly that I am a Civil Air Patrol member.   We as a group have to get our name out to the public and let them know who we are, what we do (I am sure we are already). 

  These other groups will fade away in time and no one will remember them.

CAP Capt, Retired US Navy Seabee.
  MRO, MS, MO, UDF, GT3, MSA, CUL
1. Lead by example, and take care of your people

davidsinn

Quote from: Strick on March 14, 2010, 12:12:03 AM
Quote from: Spike on March 13, 2010, 10:23:36 PM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on March 13, 2010, 07:34:59 PM
This same type of mistaken identity takes place also with CAP personnel dressed in military type BDU's.   Again this is why I advocate us (especially seniors) going to the Blue BDU's and also Blue Flight Suits.  I would hope that at least CAP personnel would state who they really are and what we do and not take credit for thanks for something they are not >:(

I think it is better for CAP to be "distinctive" and known/identified as Civil Air Patrol rather than be mistaken for being military personnel.

Radio......we have heard this here on CAPTALK before.  You are in the minority, and well frankly, many of us are tired of hearing this same thing over and over again. 

I guess you missed the bright blue and white branchtapes on the BDU's that say "Civil Air Patrol"??  How about the polo shirt?  The Air Force wears a Polo Shirt now.....do you want us to get out of that.  The Blue Flight Suits and Blue BDU's CAN and HAVE been mistaken for military before.  In fact......the military used to wear similar items.  I think one area in the AF wore a blue flight suit up until last year if I am not mistaken.

Stop with this put-down of CAP and it's members for choosing to wear the uniforms that the Government says we can wear legally.

+1

I have been mistaken for a LEO before while wearing BBDU. I learned something at a recent SAREX that convinces me that it being mistaken for a cop in the woods while chasing an ELT could get you dead. Granted being mistaken for military under the same circumstances wouldn't be any better but I really don't want certain types thinking I'm coming for them.
Former CAP Captain
David Sinn

jimmydeanno

Quote from: davidsinn on March 14, 2010, 02:55:04 PM
I learned something at a recent SAREX that convinces me that it being mistaken for a cop in the woods while chasing an ELT could get you dead.

Being anyone in the woods could find you dead if you stumble across the wrong spot.  Drug growers and wooded meth labs have the possibility of getting anyone in trouble should you stumble across it.  National Forests and parks are havens for these people because there isn't anything that can tie them to the spot should it be discovered.

We had a GT of ours stumble across a Meth Lab in the woods on public land.  With it mostly comprised of cadets, that would have been a huge tragedy should something have gone wrong.
If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

davidsinn

Quote from: jimmydeanno on March 14, 2010, 04:10:29 PM
Quote from: davidsinn on March 14, 2010, 02:55:04 PM
I learned something at a recent SAREX that convinces me that it being mistaken for a cop in the woods while chasing an ELT could get you dead.

Being anyone in the woods could find you dead if you stumble across the wrong spot.  Drug growers and wooded meth labs have the possibility of getting anyone in trouble should you stumble across it.  National Forests and parks are havens for these people because there isn't anything that can tie them to the spot should it be discovered.

We had a GT of ours stumble across a Meth Lab in the woods on public land.  With it mostly comprised of cadets, that would have been a huge tragedy should something have gone wrong.

I learned that drug runners are dropping their payload with an ELT attached and they are DF'ing it themselves. Thus your target could be the bad spot to stumble upon. I have heard about coming across meth labs or drug grows and those concern me too.
Former CAP Captain
David Sinn

vento

To really be distinctive and hi vis in SAR missions, we should wear ORANGE flight suit and also design ORANGE BDUs.  >:D Hard to be confused with other armed forces nowadays and ORANGE fits SAR and ES quite nicely and be part of the big family of the SAR community. Orance BDU plus Air Force issued reflective belts may even reduce the number of incidents we have during cadet activities.  >:D

heliodoc

vento

You are using tooooo much common sense for CAP  :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Major Carrales

#65
Let just keep our uniforms as they are and leave the mission as the prime objective.   That is true commonsense.  Those uniform critics who keep making these comments, as above, are just as guilty of "uniform-a-gaugery" as anyone else.   

That said, if we remember not to lose touch with why we are here then the uniform matters little, just wear it in accordance with the REGS as is required by the policies and procedures.
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

Fuzzy

Quote from: vento on March 15, 2010, 05:50:32 PM
To really be distinctive and hi vis in SAR missions, we should wear ORANGE flight suit and also design ORANGE BDUs.  >:D Hard to be confused with other armed forces nowadays and ORANGE fits SAR and ES quite nicely and be part of the big family of the SAR community. Orance BDU plus Air Force issued reflective belts may even reduce the number of incidents we have during cadet activities.  >:D

We would also fit in with the county prison system quite nicely as well. Don't they uses big white 15 passenger vans too?
C/Capt Semko

tsrup

Quote from: Major Carrales on March 15, 2010, 06:26:29 PM
Let just keep our uniforms as they are and leave the mission as the prime objective.
^^^^^^^
This +1,000
Paramedic
hang-around.

Spike

Quote from: Major Carrales on March 15, 2010, 06:26:29 PM
Let just keep our uniforms as they are and leave the mission as the prime objective.

What mission??  It is clear by those in National Leadership positions that their mission is "uniforms".  So to follow suit, we should adopt the same mission.

I kid.....I just wanted to express how ridiculous CAP looks to an outsider that stumbles across these uniform debates and policy letters etc by our leaders.

heliodoc

^^^^^^ :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Careful, Spike.....CAPTalkers will take you to task for that blasphemy  >:D

Major Carrales

Quote from: Spike on March 15, 2010, 06:44:04 PM
I kid.....I just wanted to express how ridiculous CAP looks to an outsider that stumbles across these uniform debates and policy letters etc by our leaders.

Yes, but these uniform topics are internal discussions by people who are in little position to do more than influence policy via the clever "cut of their typed word." 

I am more concerned about the outside world reading the various "insults" exchanged here...some of them instigated by non-members or the "CAP political" machinations that sometime come here born of speculations and inuendo more than fact.
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

Earhart1971

This is an interesting thread, in that we could be talking about OURSELVES and our own members and their need to be important and wear a uniform.

How many CAP Lt Colonels are in CAP with 10 years OR LESS SERVICE?

Ticket punchers and such.

How many only wear the Blue Coat and Ribbons and Wings and attend every Wing Conference, Region, and National meeting?


How many have 4 to 6 weeks paid vacation per year to devote to CAP?

We could be complaining about something that is pretty close to home.

heliodoc

Speculation and inuendo abound in CAP, Maj Carrales

The membership has almost a little say in CAP. 

CAP "political machinations?"   There IS plenty-o-that going on in CAP.  Some folks would rather tell others that it does not exist and their are plenty with their heads in the sand.

When the day comes.... CAP in a new or completely different uniform...how are folks going to react then?

Who IS that joker who invented the CAP blue Smurf suit, anyway?  How did folks react to that silly rag?   

How is that for an insult?   Hope for a change in uniforms for the CAP...but do not hold your breath......otherwise there won't be any personnel for CAP's 3 core missions!!!

tdepp

Quote from: tsrup on March 15, 2010, 06:29:55 PM
Quote from: Major Carrales on March 15, 2010, 06:26:29 PM
Let just keep our uniforms as they are and leave the mission as the prime objective.
^^^^^^^
This +1,000
Indeed. 

Reminds me of a quote (probably apocryphal) attributed to the BBC's Director General: "If it weren't for all these TV shows we have to produce, we could get our work done."  Our mission is not uniforms, it's disaster services, cadet training, and aerospace education.  When you join you know the regulations on the uniforms (or you will soon after).  Can we accomplish our missions in the uniforms we have?  I think the answer is yes. 
Todd D. Epp, LL.M., Capt, CAP
Sioux Falls Composite Squadron Deputy Commander for Seniors
SD Wing Public Affairs Officer
Wing website: http://sdcap.us    Squadron website: http://www.siouxfallscap.com
Author of "This Day in Civil Air Patrol History" @ http://caphistory.blogspot.com

Major Carrales

Quote from: heliodoc on March 15, 2010, 06:59:54 PM
How is that for an insult?   

The insults of which I spake are not of specifically your comments, but rather all those times when people feel the compulsion to insult someone on here.
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454