A question I have been curious about for a long time but have never heard explained. I am curious about military officers' career paths. I have heard that there is a policy or practice called "Up or Out". What is this? Could one of the AD or retired military explain this? Or Suppose one goes through ROTC in college and becomes an officer. How long does that person get to continue as an active or reserve duty officer? How does one get promoted? Can one change specialties once one becomes an officer?
-- Nomex
Quick and dirty, you either get promoted to the next grade or you get the boot.
You usually get two opportunities to get promoted. "On-time" and "above the zone" for those who didn't get promoted on-time.
If you don't get promoted by the Above The Zone selection board then you're out the door.
It's actually much, much more complicated then this. But this was the "Executive Summary".
^ Yep. What he said.
A person has a certain amount of time to make grade. If they don't make the grade in that time, you are separated from the service.
So if I am a new 2LT in the Air Force, how long do I have to move up? What would I have to do to advance? Or, what would I have to do or fail to do to get booted? How many people get booted?
And in particular, what is the military reasoning behind this policy?
I can't speak to the military policy, beyond one of "if you aren't ready or able to accept higher responsibility, then see you later," but the basics of up-and-out only apply once one has been promoted to (I think) major.
All second lieutenants make first lieutenant (unless they quit or have UCMJ issues). All first lieutenants make captain. That happens during the first three-four years of an officer's career anyway. Those who re-up are (check me on this, AD guys) going to make major as vacancies come up, but after that -- you either get selected by a promotion board or else. Two pass-overs and you're finished when your contracted years are up.
(It sounds right, anyway.)
Jack
Quote from: Nomex Maximus on September 14, 2007, 02:57:51 AM
So if I am a new 2LT in the Air Force, how long do I have to move up? What would I have to do to advance? Or, what would I have to do or fail to do to get booted? How many people get booted?
Ahem... the reg nazis would string you up for using that sacrilegious Army abbreviation for 2d Lt. ;D (Nichts mich, boss! ;D)
Promotions to 1st Lt in the USAF are on a 'fully qualified' basis: if there's no bar to your promotion such as an Article 15, UIF (Unfavorable Information File) you take the golden tarnish off your bars 24 months after commissioning. 24 months after pinning on 1st Lt, under the same 'fully qualified' rule, one pins on Capt in the USAF.
How to get kicked out: fail to meet weight management standards, fail - repeatedly - physical training standards, get a DUI (an automatic Article 15 - tusually the kiss of death for further officer career advancement), intentionally do something to get decertified from PRP (Personnel Reliability Program), among other little things that can explode into big things.
Quote from: Nomex Maximus on September 14, 2007, 03:01:22 AM
And in particular, what is the military reasoning behind this policy?
The exact issue we have in CAP - career Lt's with no ambition just "hanging around", "up and out" is especially prevalent with commanders - you would not see someone who held a respective command rejoining the ranks in that same command. When your time is up, you go "other".
Unlike CAP where members go up to a certain level, plateau, and then have to go somewhere, and sometimes its just to the back of the line they just led - the good ones get in step and keep moving, the poor ones become naysayer problems.
Quote from: Nomex Maximus on September 14, 2007, 02:57:51 AM
So if I am a new 2LT in the Air Force, how long do I have to move up? What would I have to do to advance? Or, what would I have to do or fail to do to get booted? How many people get booted?
Ha.....just being a 2nd Lt in the AF could mean you get the boot. The recent Reduction in Force saw many new Officers given the "you should have joined the Army" speech. I actually work with another Officer who did the Blue to Green program for AF Officers to switch to the Army. Now that being said......you had to be rather "ate up" to get RIF'ed!! I think no performance or bad reviews in the AF meant you were a candidate for "Commission Termination" or "Appointment take-away" (both terms I tottally made up, I don't know how the AF termed getting rid of Officers last year).
The usual timeline for Officer promotions in the Air Force:
Promote to 1st Lt after 2 years.
Promote to Capt after 4 years. Up to this point the promotions are almost automatic.
Promote to Major at 10 years.
Promote to Lt Col at 16 years.
Promote to Colonel at 20 years.
The promotions above Captain are increasingly more competitive the higher you go.
The selection rate for Lieutenant Colonels going for Colonel is only about 30% or so. It may be even lower then that.
Which is why you see a lot of retired Lt Col's. They didn't make Col and decided to call it a career.
RealMilitary® promotions are billet driven. There are way more E-3 and O-1 billets than there are E-9 and O-6 billets. Promotion quotas are determined by the number of available billets. If someone can't promote in a given amount of time, they are holding a billet unnecessarily, possibly preventing someone more qualified from moving into that billet.
Relatively current figures here (http://usmilitary.about.com/od/navypromotions/a/hyt.htm).
BTW, RIF (Reduction in Force) is a specific program that isn't necessarily adverse to one's career. I worked with a couple of AF NCOs who were former officers that ended up being excess to their fields and were offered E-6 so they cold finish their 20 years.
Quote from: Eclipse on September 14, 2007, 03:18:35 AM
Quote from: Nomex Maximus on September 14, 2007, 03:01:22 AM
And in particular, what is the military reasoning behind this policy?
The exact issue we have in CAP - career Lt's with no ambition just "hanging around", "up and out" is especially prevalent with commanders - you would not see someone who held a respective command rejoining the ranks in that same command. When your time is up, you go "other".
Unlike CAP where members go up to a certain level, plateau, and then have to go somewhere, and sometimes its just to the back of the line they just led - the good ones get in step and keep moving, the poor ones become naysayer problems.
I believe this policy was developed during the downsizing period of the military. It was one more way to get people out of the service. Basically, if the person didn't want to advance, the military said it didn't need them. The enlisted side has similar policies.
That has developed to the more current attitude that the military really wants the hard chargers, those who want to be the best at what they do.
There is also a more immediate practical reason for this too. In a combat environment, everyone must be prepared to step up and fill the next higher role. You never know when your superior officer (or NCO) will be disabled and you're in charge. The military wants ALL of it's people to be able to do that.
Yeah, RIF is not a good deal. Knew a Major that was running Base Civil engineering and got riffed. Nothing like working as an E-6 for people that you have been commanding in the past. Great for ego and job satisfaction.
You also get situations where you have ten good people but only five slots for them. In this case the military is going to pick the best of the ten (hopefully ;)) and they're going to lose five good people. It's unfortunate, but it does happen sometimes.
Back to the up or out thing...
There are maximum number of years of commissioned service established for each grade. The goal is to move up before you hit the max. If you do hit the max, yer out.
To ensure this occurs, the services generally have a two strike policy on promotion. Meaning if you're up for it twice and aren't selected, you are seperated right then, as opposed to waiting until the max time.
However, this policy is always in flux. In the Army, they've raised the max number of years or 04 and 05. And they've allowed twice pass-over folks to apply to remain on active duty in until that max.
It's all about filling the slots, keeping the leaders young and agile, and avoiding stagnation at the top.
And it keeps all the junior field grades nice and nervous. :)
Dont you also have an education requirement?
To make 2d LT, you obviously need the Bachelors degree, but to make beyond Major, you need a graduate degree?
Quote from: dougsnow on September 14, 2007, 08:31:11 PM
Dont you also have an education requirement?
To make 2d LT, you obviously need the Bachelors degree, but to make beyond Major, you need a graduate degree?
I think that varies with the time and service. When I was a 2/Lt my Colonel called me in for a discussion of my career path. I was a cadet and commissioned without a degree. He told me that I was a hot item, and that I would make Lieutenant Colonel at warp speed, after which I would hit a wall whether I subsequently earned my degree or not. I appreciate his candor, and I really enjoyed being an airline pilot.
Quote from: Skyray on September 14, 2007, 09:03:10 PM
Quote from: dougsnow on September 14, 2007, 08:31:11 PM
Don't you also have an education requirement?
To make 2d LT, you obviously need the Bachelors degree, but to make beyond Major, you need a graduate degree?
I think that varies with the time and service. When I was a 2/Lt my Colonel called me in for a discussion of my career path. I was a cadet and commissioned without a degree. He told me that I was a hot item, and that I would make Lieutenant Colonel at warp speed, after which I would hit a wall whether I subsequently earned my degree or not. I appreciate his candor, and I really enjoyed being an airline pilot.
?? How long ago were you Commissioned? I think since 1951 every service says that all Officers no matter what commissioning source, a bachelors degree was required. The services did allow up to a 2 year window to complete degree requirements for OCS/OTS and Reserve Officers coming from Military Junior Colleges. I think that is still how it works today.
I wasnt an officer, but enlisted is the same way. In the Marines, you have 12 years to make E-6 SSgt...otherwise you packin your bags.
Quote?? How long ago were you Commissioned? I think since 1951 every service says that all Officers no matter what commissioning source, a bachelors degree was required. The services did allow up to a 2 year window to complete degree requirements for OCS/OTS and Reserve Officers coming from Military Junior Colleges. I think that is still how it works today.
My date of rank as a Second Lieutenant was 17 October 1961. And I was a long way from the last Aviation Cadet. I am in regular communication with some who were commissioned in 1964 and 1965. The Colonel was right, I was deep selected for Major at eight years. I think that the service was in transition at that time, and the Colonel was mildly complaining about it. Kind of like I hear post-doctoral students today talking about their SAT score--what difference does it make, what have you done with the opportunities since then. There is actually a club at Southern Methodist where the criteria for admission is having a higher SAT score than George W. Bush. It's not a very exclusive club, but most of them have not accomplished what he has, either.
So how is this termination handled? A happy occasion or is it like getting fired? And the idea of an enlisted soldier being told to go seems odd at best - you have a guy that has been in since he was 18 and he is now 30. He didn't get past E-6 so they tell him to go get lost? And at the same time they will happily recruit a 36 year old with no experience as a private? Wouldn't it make more sense to just keep the experienced younger guy in a lesser slot?
Seems like a very strange practice for my civilian mind to grasp...
Enlisted guys and Reserve Officers sign contracts, usually four to six years. If they don't promote according to schedule, the service simply doesn't renew their contract.
Quote from: davedove on September 14, 2007, 11:34:47 AM[backquotes redacted] I believe this policy was developed during the downsizing period of the military. It was one more way to get people out of the service. Basically, if the person didn't want to advance, the military said it didn't need them. The enlisted side has similar policies. [further redacted]
IIRC, some sort of "up or out" policy was in place as far back as the '60s, particularly for officers. Getting passed over was a huge deal. The enlisted folks didn't get the major effect of it until in the '70s, after Viet Nam ended.
Quote from: Nomex Maximus on September 14, 2007, 09:28:43 PM
So how is this termination handled? A happy occasion or is it like getting fired? And the idea of an enlisted soldier being told to go seems odd at best - you have a guy that has been in since he was 18 and he is now 30. He didn't get past E-6 so they tell him to go get lost? And at the same time they will happily recruit a 36 year old with no experience as a private? Wouldn't it make more sense to just keep the experienced younger guy in a lesser slot?
Seems like a very strange practice for my civilian mind to grasp...
How it is handled for officers:
IF you are passed over for promotion a second time, you get a letter detailing your options. Usually you have three.
1. If you have 20 or more years of active duty, you can retire.
2. If you have less than 20 years active duty, you can request discharge.
3. If you have less than 20 years active duty, but 20 or more years qualifying reserve service, you can transfer to the retired reserve until age 60.
Not a happy occasion, but more like getting laid off than fired.
Fired is when they send you a CERTIFIED letter informing you of their intent to separate you from your commission, and detailing some misconduct or shortcoming. You have the right to challenge that at a hearing.
...but if you have less than 20 years are you pretty much out of any retirement benefits?
Quote from: Nomex Maximus on September 15, 2007, 01:33:03 AM
...but if you have less than 20 years are you pretty much out of any retirement benefits?
Not necessarily: years on active duty can be combined with reserve drill/perticiaption points towards retirement from the reserves at age 60, per Kach's post.
Quote from: dougsnow on September 14, 2007, 08:31:11 PM
Dont you also have an education requirement?
To make 2d LT, you obviously need the Bachelors degree, but to make beyond Major, you need a graduate degree?
You have to be a graudate of Command and General staff Colleg eand if you graduate from that you automatically get a Masters degree in military science. So it is not a written rule that yo uHAVE to have a Masters degree to be a Major but you must graduate from CGSC which gives you a masters degree
Quote from: O-Rex on September 15, 2007, 01:52:01 AM
Quote from: Nomex Maximus on September 15, 2007, 01:33:03 AM
...but if you have less than 20 years are you pretty much out of any retirement benefits?
Not necessarily: years on active duty can be combined with reserve drill/participation points toward retirement from the reserves at age 60, per Kach's post.
If you have some enlisted time you
may be allowed to enlist as a Sergeant or Staff
sergeant depending on your officer grade. I have known Majors to go out as E-7's and at least two Colonels to stay on as W-2s. There was even a Major General, Might have been a 3* who got out of the Army under a political cloud, He refused to retire and was instead discharged. 20 years later he asked for his retirement and they brought him back as a W-2 for a day and retired him as a Major General.
Quote from: Nomex Maximus on September 15, 2007, 01:33:03 AM
...but if you have less than 20 years are you pretty much out of any retirement benefits?
Yes.
20 years active= immediate retirement benefits
Less than 20 years active, but total of 20 years reserve and active= retirement benefits at age 60.
Less than 20 years total= Civilian.
If you are forced out with more than 20 years reserve time, and you are less than 60 years old, you have the option on staying in the Retired Reserve until age 60, or take a discharge and get out until age 60. As a retired reservist you retain PX, commissary, MWR benefits, and you hold your rank for protocol purposes. You retain the right to wear the uniform, and you MAY be recalled to active duty, but you cannot be sent out of the US unless you agree to a waiver of assignment.
If you opt for discharge, you have no military connection until age 60 when your retirement benefits start.
The background on the "Up or out" policy is that until about 1940 an officer could serve until retirement age no matter how good or bad he was. Advancement was by seniority so that unless someone resigned, retired , or died you did not move up. This resulted in many officers being 40 year old lieutenants or Captains. Unless there was a war in which case they were given temporary appointments to a higher grade (For example General Eisenhowers permenant grade before his appointment to GA was Colonel even though he wore 4 stars). The up and out is a weeding process, so that the best qualified moves up and the also rans leave.
Quote from: Cecil DP on September 15, 2007, 07:41:00 PM
For example General Eisenhowers permenant grade before his appointment to GA was Colonel even though he wore 4 stars.
That is a very interesting fact, especially since in terms of 'temporary' ranks, I think Ike jumped from lt col to brig gen without ever 'pinning on' a set of eagles!
Quote from: ZigZag911 on September 16, 2007, 02:06:46 AM
Quote from: Cecil DP on September 15, 2007, 07:41:00 PM
For example General Eisenhowers permenant grade before his appointment to GA was Colonel even though he wore 4 stars.
That is a very interesting fact, especially since in terms of 'temporary' ranks, I think Ike jumped from lt col to brig gen without ever 'pinning on' a set of eagles!
No, Ike was a Col, Bradley jumped from LTC to BG, as did Doolittle and a few others. (Pershing was actually jumped from CPT to BG in 1908, when Ted Roosevelt decided that there were too many Generals who had served in the Civil War).
Quote from: Skyray on September 14, 2007, 10:33:41 PM
Enlisted guys and Reserve Officers sign contracts, usually four to six years. If they don't promote according to schedule, the service simply doesn't renew their contract.
Actually NCO's with more than 10 years of service can now reenlist for an indefinite period
Quote from: Cecil DP on September 16, 2007, 03:07:26 PM
Quote from: Skyray on September 14, 2007, 10:33:41 PM
Enlisted guys and Reserve Officers sign contracts, usually four to six years. If they don't promote according to schedule, the service simply doesn't renew their contract.
Actually NCO's with more than 10 years of service can now reenlist for an indefinite period
When did that start? The last intel I saw was a maximum enlistment of 6 years, with a maximum of 4 years extension, giving a 10 year enlistment. I served an 8 year, 8 month enlistment WIWOAD on that basis.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on September 15, 2007, 01:15:19 AM
Quote from: Nomex Maximus on September 14, 2007, 09:28:43 PM
So how is this termination handled? A happy occasion or is it like getting fired? And the idea of an enlisted soldier being told to go seems odd at best - you have a guy that has been in since he was 18 and he is now 30. He didn't get past E-6 so they tell him to go get lost? And at the same time they will happily recruit a 36 year old with no experience as a private? Wouldn't it make more sense to just keep the experienced younger guy in a lesser slot?
Seems like a very strange practice for my civilian mind to grasp...
How it is handled for officers:
IF you are passed over for promotion a second time, you get a letter detailing your options. Usually you have three.
1. If you have 20 or more years of active duty, you can retire.
2. If you have less than 20 years active duty, you can request discharge.
3. If you have less than 20 years active duty, but 20 or more years qualifying reserve service, you can transfer to the retired reserve until age 60.
Not a happy occasion, but more like getting laid off than fired.
Fired is when they send you a CERTIFIED letter informing you of their intent to separate you from your commission, and detailing some misconduct or shortcoming. You have the right to challenge that at a hearing.
Also, unless it has changed recently, in the Army once you make E-6 you're guaranteed your 20 years.
And I believe for all of the services, once you hit 18 years you're good for 20.
Don't know about the E-6 rule. It is true that you get an 18-year "Lock-in" even if your second passover takes place between 18-20 years.
Quote from: Nomex Maximus on September 15, 2007, 01:33:03 AM
...but if you have less than 20 years are you pretty much out of any retirement benefits?
Yes, only exception is if you have medical problems
directly caused by your service.
A friend of mine was a major passed over for Lt. Col. twice when he had more than 17 years in. Good bye. No pension.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on September 17, 2007, 04:43:30 PM
A friend of mine was a major passed over for Lt. Col. twice when he had more than 17 years in. Good bye. No pension.
RA or
Reserve? When I was in the Marines, that could happen to a reserve, but if you were regular you were guaranteed twenty when you made Major.
Reserve, but I never heard of a 20-year guarantee for majors in the Army.
Thanks all for the explanations.