Thinking of joining CAP- Lets talk promotions

[USAFRiggerGuy]

I just moved and would like to help out my local composite in Greeley, CO.  They are struggling to stay relevant it seems and need a younger person and a Veteran to help mentor the Cadets.  If I join CAP will I be automatically a 2nd Lt?  I was in the USAF for roughly 7 years and separated as a SSgt, which means I completed Airman Leadership School which is a 6 week college credited course.  I also have received my B.S in Business/ Project Management and am earning my MBA.  I also served as a Budget Analyst for the US Army Corps of Engineers and graduated form a 6 month leadership development course with that organization.  I feel like with my Active military experience, education and leadership qualifications I should be able to walk into being a 2LT but I'm not quite sure.  Any advice would be much appreciated.

[lordmonar]

No
It takes six months as a SM before promotion to 2d Lt. And you don't seem to qualify for one of the advanced promotions.

[lordmonar]

Thanks for joining.  Have you considered keeping you stripes?

[USAFRiggerGuy]

Thanks for joining.  Have you considered keeping you stripes?

I have thought about it but I would rather go the Officer route.  I separated from the military to finish my degree and then go OTS.... Well too much VA disability banished that dream and now I am ineligible to rejoin.  So in a way being a CAP officer and helping mentor Cadets will have to be my trade-off.

[USAFRiggerGuy]

No
It takes six months as a SM before promotion to 2d Lt. And you don't seem to qualify for one of the advanced promotions.

I read that as well in the reg... I just think it is a little crazy that someone with 6 months and a GED can be a 2LT but someone with 7 years of USAF related military leadership experience and a bachelors isn't advanced strait to 2LT.

[lordmonar]

No
It takes six months as a SM before promotion to 2d Lt. And you don't seem to qualify for one of the advanced promotions.

I read that as well in the reg... I just think it is a little crazy that someone with 6 months and a GED can be a 2LT but someone with 7 years of USAF related military leadership experience and a bachelors isn't advanced strait to 2LT.

Singing to the choir Brother!

[USAFRiggerGuy]

No
It takes six months as a SM before promotion to 2d Lt. And you don't seem to qualify for one of the advanced promotions.

I read that as well in the reg... I just think it is a little crazy that someone with 6 months and a GED can be a 2LT but someone with 7 years of USAF related military leadership experience and a bachelors isn't advanced strait to 2LT.

Singing to the choir Brother!

Glad i'm not the only one to see that discrepancy.... I wonder if I could take my stripes and wear them for 6 months until I'm eligable for my 2Lt so I have something on my CAP BDUs besides 3 Occ badges and some name tapes...

[lordmonar]

No
It takes six months as a SM before promotion to 2d Lt. And you don't seem to qualify for one of the advanced promotions.

I read that as well in the reg... I just think it is a little crazy that someone with 6 months and a GED can be a 2LT but someone with 7 years of USAF related military leadership experience and a bachelors isn't advanced strait to 2LT.

Singing to the choir Brother!

Glad i'm not the only one to see that discrepancy.... I wonder if I could take my stripes and wear them for 6 months until I'm eligable for my 2Lt so I have something on my CAP BDUs besides 3 Occ badges and some name tapes...

No....unfortunatly....under the current rules...you got to wait six months before requesting appointment to your former NCO rank.

[USAFRiggerGuy]

Well I guess either way I will be the most souped up non graded guy to ever enter the unit.. CAP should really look into some different ways to honor education and leadership experience (Certificates, etc.)

[LSThiker]

Glad i'm not the only one to see that discrepancy.... I wonder if I could take my stripes and wear them for 6 months until I'm eligable for my 2Lt so I have something on my CAP BDUs besides 3 Occ badges and some name tapes...

The only way would be to talk with your unit commander and wing chaplain about being a character development instructor.  It is required that you must have a minimum of 60 hours of college study and a letter of recommendation from a community or religious leader.  Once your CDI packet is approved, you are appointed a 2d Lt. 

[USAFRiggerGuy]

Glad i'm not the only one to see that discrepancy.... I wonder if I could take my stripes and wear them for 6 months until I'm eligable for my 2Lt so I have something on my CAP BDUs besides 3 Occ badges and some name tapes...

The only way would be to talk with your unit commander and wing chaplain about being a character development instructor.  It is required that you must have a minimum of 60 hours of college study and a letter of recommendation from a community or religious leader.  Once your CDI packet is approved, you are appointed a 2d Lt.

I have a Bachelors and i'm sure my pastor would write a letter for me. Great advice :clap:... I will talk to my "recruiter" tomorrow about this path.

[SouthernCross]

"The only way would be to talk with your unit commander and wing chaplain about being a character development instructor.  It is required that you must have a minimum of 60 hours of college study and a letter of recommendation from a community or religious leader.  Once your CDI packet is approved, you are appointed a 2d Lt."

Remember that you will have complete Level 1, which includes Orientation to Safety, CPPT, EO, et al. And don't forget that under current CAPR 265-1, you will have to have your college transcripts sent to the NHQ/HCA, in addition to having an interview with the wing chaplain. Once he wing chaplain has received CAPF 35A from the CDI candidate, he will forward it to the region chaplain, who in turn will send it to the NHQ/HCA. By the time everything thing is said and done, six month have easily gone by. Now, the soon-to-be-released CAPR 265-1 us purported to do away with college credit requirements, among other things.

[USAFRiggerGuy]

"The only way would be to talk with your unit commander and wing chaplain about being a character development instructor.  It is required that you must have a minimum of 60 hours of college study and a letter of recommendation from a community or religious leader.  Once your CDI packet is approved, you are appointed a 2d Lt."

Remember that you will have complete Level 1, which includes Orientation to Safety, CPPT, EO, et al. And don't forget that under current CAPR 265-1, you will have to have your college transcripts sent to the NHQ/HCA, in addition to having an interview with the wing chaplain. Once he wing chaplain has received CAPF 35A from the CDI candidate, he will forward it to the region chaplain, who in turn will send it to the NHQ/HCA. By the time everything thing is said and done, six month have easily gone by. Now, the soon-to-be-released CAPR 265-1 us purported to do away with college credit requirements, among other things.

I almost thought that might be the case.  I am a good fit for the position because our SQ Chaplain travels quite a ways away to get to meetings and I could be a suitable fill in for him during the times that he can't make the meetings.  I guess we shall see how this all plays out.  Thanks for the insight

[SAREXinNY]

If I can just throw my two cents in here...

USAF and CAP are apples and oranges.  There are some similarities but it's a whole different ballgame.  Starting out as a SM and working your way through the ranks isn't a bad thing.  I joined CAP after having many years in the workforce, having a Masters degree, leadership roles in other organizations, etc.  I could have qualified for advanced promotion based on my profession but I opted to earn my bars the 'hard' way.  I don't regret it.  Don't get too hung up on rank.  But, that's just my perspective.  Either way, I hope you find your service with CAP rewarding, interesting, and worthwhile!

[EMT-83]

No
It takes six months as a SM before promotion to 2d Lt. And you don't seem to qualify for one of the advanced promotions.

I read that as well in the reg... I just think it is a little crazy that someone with 6 months and a GED can be a 2LT but someone with 7 years of USAF related military leadership experience and a bachelors isn't advanced strait to 2LT.

Get promoted first, then learn about the organization you just joined. Sounds like a plan.

[Майор Хаткевич]

No
It takes six months as a SM before promotion to 2d Lt. And you don't seem to qualify for one of the advanced promotions.

I read that as well in the reg... I just think it is a little crazy that someone with 6 months and a GED can be a 2LT but someone with 7 years of USAF related military leadership experience and a bachelors isn't advanced strait to 2LT.

Get promoted first, then learn about the organization you just joined. Sounds like a plan.

Was going to say...if you went to OCS, you wouldn't be a butter bar until you received training. The same applies here.

[USAFRiggerGuy]

No
It takes six months as a SM before promotion to 2d Lt. And you don't seem to qualify for one of the advanced promotions.

I read that as well in the reg... I just think it is a little crazy that someone with 6 months and a GED can be a 2LT but someone with 7 years of USAF related military leadership experience and a bachelors isn't advanced strait to 2LT.

Get promoted first, then learn about the organization you just joined. Sounds like a plan.

Well coming from he military and then working in the DOD as a civilian is why I read up on the regs first.  I read about CAPs mission, the promotion structure and specialty tracks before I ever went to a meeting to see what it was all about.  I worked with CAP while I was Active Duty giving the Cadets tours of the flight-line and such.  I am a researcher by nature.  I just thought that I would throw the question out there incase I was missing something that more seasoned members would know about.

[USAFRiggerGuy]

No
It takes six months as a SM before promotion to 2d Lt. And you don't seem to qualify for one of the advanced promotions.

I read that as well in the reg... I just think it is a little crazy that someone with 6 months and a GED can be a 2LT but someone with 7 years of USAF related military leadership experience and a bachelors isn't advanced strait to 2LT.

Get promoted first, then learn about the organization you just joined. Sounds like a plan.

Was going to say...if you went to OCS, you wouldn't be a butter bar until you received training. The same applies here.

I guess I will try and look at it like that.  Thanks for some perspective Capt.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I'm in year 13 of membership, closing up 3rd ACTIVE year as a Senior. Still learning. It's a big organization with many missions and operations.

[USAFRiggerGuy]

If I can just throw my two cents in here...

USAF and CAP are apples and oranges.  There are some similarities but it's a whole different ballgame.  Starting out as a SM and working your way through the ranks isn't a bad thing.  I joined CAP after having many years in the workforce, having a Masters degree, leadership roles in other organizations, etc.  I could have qualified for advanced promotion based on my profession but I opted to earn my bars the 'hard' way.  I don't regret it.  Don't get too hung up on rank.  But, that's just my perspective.  Either way, I hope you find your service with CAP rewarding, interesting, and worthwhile!

I will raise your two cents by a quarter!  I agree that they are different, there are just so many similarities when I am discussing things with CAP members that I have to step back and realize that it is different than the REG AF.  This is not a bad thing,  I just have to remember that even though individuals wear the same rank as the REG AF that it isn't the same.  I like your perspective,  I joined to help a composite that seems to be floundering with very aged members and no younger mentorship to connect with the cadets.  I'm sure I will find the experience rewarding as desired!

[Storm Chaser]

First of all, welcome to CAP.

The fact that you're so eager to get promoted in an organization you now very little about and think that your education and service in the Air Force somehow makes you more deserving says that you're not really ready for that promotion. And this is coming from someone who is a Maj in both the Air Force and in CAP. Could CAP make promotion to 2d Lt a bit harder? Sure. But just because you were a SSgt in the Air Force doesn't mean that you know enough about CAP to come in as a 2d Lt. By the way, I was a SSgt and maintainer too before I got my commission, so I think I can relate.

My advice to you is join CAP, learn the ropes, contribute to your unit, then get promoted... in that order. If you're thinking about becoming a CDI, do it because you want to and are suited and qualified for it, not because it will get you bars faster. The bars will come soon enough. Good luck!

[SAREXinNY]

If I can just throw my two cents in here...

USAF and CAP are apples and oranges.  There are some similarities but it's a whole different ballgame.  Starting out as a SM and working your way through the ranks isn't a bad thing.  I joined CAP after having many years in the workforce, having a Masters degree, leadership roles in other organizations, etc.  I could have qualified for advanced promotion based on my profession but I opted to earn my bars the 'hard' way.  I don't regret it.  Don't get too hung up on rank.  But, that's just my perspective.  Either way, I hope you find your service with CAP rewarding, interesting, and worthwhile!

I will raise your two cents by a quarter!  I agree that they are different, there are just so many similarities when I am discussing things with CAP members that I have to step back and realize that it is different than the REG AF.  This is not a bad thing,  I just have to remember that even though individuals wear the same rank as the REG AF that it isn't the same.  I like your perspective,  I joined to help a composite that seems to be floundering with very aged members and no younger mentorship to connect with the cadets.  I'm sure I will find the experience rewarding as desired!

You may be quite surprised at how different the two organizations actually are.  You said you were a researcher by nature (as am I).  I suggest you take a peek at some of our regs:
http://www.capmembers.com/forms_publications__regulations/indexes-regulations-and-manuals-1700/
You may get an idea how of different we are.  Your USAF experience will be great for teaching the cadets drill, customs and courtesies, and similar training...but otherwise it may not be as helpful as you expect.

[lordmonar]

Lets not dog pile too hard and scare him away. 

He asked a question made some uninformed comments.   That makes him just like just about everyone else here on CAPTALK.

[USAFRiggerGuy]

First of all, welcome to CAP.

The fact that you're so eager to get promoted in an organization you now very little about and think that your education and service in the Air Force somehow makes you more deserving says that you're not really ready for that promotion. And this is coming from someone who is a Maj in both the Air Force and in CAP. Could CAP make promotion to 2d Lt a bit harder? Sure. But just because you were a SSgt in the Air Force doesn't mean that you know enough about CAP to come in as a 2d Lt. By the way, I was a SSgt and maintainer too before I got my commission, so I think I can relate.

My advice to you is join CAP, learn the ropes, contribute to your unit, then get promoted... in that order. If you're thinking about becoming a CDI, do it because you want to and are suited and qualified for it, not because it will get you bars faster. The bars will come soon enough. Good luck!

I appreciate your advice and thank you for your service.  I guess that I feel like having tangible leadership experience in the military and an education would be enough to become a 2nd LT.  Its just kind of a hard pill to swallow that a person with zero militaristic organizational experience promotes in the same rate someone that has prior experience would.  I understand that this is not the military, but it is hard to look past the similarities (Specialty Track/ AFSCs, TIG, CBTs, etc).  Furthermore, being a CDI is something that sounds like what I originally looked into CAP for, to help cadets whether that is in D&C or talking to them about some problems they might be having.  Thanks for taking the time to comment and giving some of your perspective!

[USAFRiggerGuy]

Lets not dog pile too hard and scare him away. 

He asked a question made some uninformed comments.   That makes him just like just about everyone else here on CAPTALK.

haha I was a maintainer and the flightline can be a rough place so I'm doing ok! I just appreciate all of the comments and the feedback I am getting from members.  I am surprised so many people actively comment and i am pleased to know that if i have a question that it will most likely be met by some answers!

[JeffDG]

I will raise your two cents by a quarter!  I agree that they are different, there are just so many similarities when I am discussing things with CAP members that I have to step back and realize that it is different than the REG AF. 

The first thing to understand, in terms of differences, is that rank is far less important to authority in CAP than the AF.  I was a 1st Lt Incident Commander with plenty of Lt Cols as Section Chiefs, air crews and ground team leaders/members.  The grade was wholly irrelevant, the position determined who had authority, and as IC, I had full authority over those Lt Cols.

[MSG Mac]

we have former Col's and a few Flag Officers who have had to wait the 6 months for initial appointment-and preferred it that way. I myself am a retired E-8 and I waited had to wait for my initial appointment to 2LT.

[USAFRiggerGuy]

I appreciate all of the comments and perspective.  I guess getting used to the system and structure is step 1 and the rest will come.  Also, getting used to rank not meaning as much as position will be another thing I will have to learn.  I appreciate everyone's comments!

[MacGruff]

Welcome to CAP, USAFRiggerGuy!

I'll jump in here with my own perspective, but it's similar to what you've read already. I would offer three points for you to consider:
1.   Grades in Civil Air Patrol denote Professional Development more than anything else; and
2.   Authority is allocated to those best trained for it. You already saw a comment from someone who stated that as an Incident Commander and a CAP 1st Lieutenant, he had Lt. Cols working for him. In another environment, we had a flight crew with a 2nd Lieutenant pilot, a 1st Lieutenant Mission Observer, and a Lt. Col Mission Scanner. Guess who controlled the mission?
3.   Even with your background, it will take you between one and two years to "get" the CAP structure and experience.

Personally, I was able to get an advanced promotion had I applied for it. I did not and I am glad I did not as I am learning the organization from the bottom up and things tend to start making better sense if others do not see "stuff" on your shoulders and assume you know more than you do.

Good luck to you in CAP and feel free to ask questions here. You will certainly get answers.   

[Chappie]

Glad i'm not the only one to see that discrepancy.... I wonder if I could take my stripes and wear them for 6 months until I'm eligable for my 2Lt so I have something on my CAP BDUs besides 3 Occ badges and some name tapes...

The only way would be to talk with your unit commander and wing chaplain about being a character development instructor.  It is required that you must have a minimum of 60 hours of college study and a letter of recommendation from a community or religious leader.  Once your CDI packet is approved, you are appointed a 2d Lt.

I have a Bachelors and i'm sure my pastor would write a letter for me. Great advice :clap:... I will talk to my "recruiter" tomorrow about this path.

A new CAPR 265-1 should be hitting the streets very soon and the CDI requirements have been changed.  Two years ago the recommendation letter from a religious leader was replaced with a recommendation from an upstanding member of the community.   The educational requirements are being addressed in the new CAPR 265-1.

On another note....back in the day, Chaplains were promoted without completing many of the required tasks in the Professional Development program -- was a matter of time-in-grade.  Many of observed a sad result...there were a lot of Maj and Lt Col in the chaplaincy that had no clue about the CAP organization.   In 2007 that changed when the Special Recognition for Chaplains element of professional development was dropped  and Chaplains were required to complete the same requirements for Senior Members in order to promote (only difference -- there is a Chaplain Corps Region Staff College at Level 4).

So...the point that I am endeavoring to make is that a better understanding of CAP is what needs to be pursued -- and the grade/rank will come.

[Storm Chaser]

On another note....back in the day, Chaplains were promoted without completing many of the required tasks in the Professional Development program -- was a matter of time-in-grade.  Many of observed a sad result...there were a lot of Maj and Lt Col in the chaplaincy that had no clue about the CAP organization.   In 2007 that changed when the Special Recognition for Chaplains element of professional development was dropped  and Chaplains were required to complete the same requirements for Senior Members in order to promote (only difference -- there is a Chaplain Corps Region Staff College at Level 4).

So...the point that I am endeavoring to make is that a better understanding of CAP is what needs to be pursued -- and the grade/rank will come.

Agreed. In fact, I see that all the time with special appointments to field grade officers based on current or prior military service. Many new members are appointed to Maj and Lt Col grades and have no clue of how CAP works. The result in many cases is an officer who may outrank most members in the unit, but is not really productive until a year or two into the program. I've also seen many Majs and Lt Cols who don't progress beyond Level 1, as they don't have an incentive to advanced in CAP Professional Development Program.

While I don't have a policy regarding how long a current or prior military officer has to wait before requesting a special appointment, I will not approve or process it unless the member is actively participating and contributing in the unit.

[Chappie]

The new CAPR 265-1 is now available on the NHQ web-site: 

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R265_001_538BD6B239386.pdf

There are changes to the Character Development Instructor's requirements.

[Flying Pig]

Not to simplify it, but in all seriousness, just join the program and have fun working through the steps.  What you are wearing on your shoulder or your sleeve has less relevance than you realize.  Its not really fair to say the rank doesn't mean anything but its more a symbol of your progression through the Professsional Development levels, not your outside education or authority.  I spent many years as a 1LT.  I was a Sq Commander, Mission Pilot, instructor pilot at a law enforcement course CAP assists with... your rank will have nothing to do with how you participate.   There is very much a business side to running CAP as you get more involved.  That is CAP specific.  Its important that CAP has a baseline foundation where everyone starts regardless of what they come in with.  Be proud of that bars and oak leaves you achieve, but keeping it in perspective will ease any issues you have with starting out at the bottom of the totem pole. 

Ive had plenty of former officers who came into CAP as LtCols and they really did nothing but sit and drink coffee and had very little understanding of why the 1LT (me) got to be the Sq Commander.  But yet they had to be held by the hand every time they tried to log onto E-Services....I mean... EVERYTIME!

Seriously though..... as a former Marine and Army Sgt/E5 myself, just have fun learning the organization.  You will see your military experience will be far more relevant making things happen vs how it corresponds with what rank you wear.

[The14th]

No
It takes six months as a SM before promotion to 2d Lt. And you don't seem to qualify for one of the advanced promotions.

I read that as well in the reg... I just think it is a little crazy that someone with 6 months and a GED can be a 2LT but someone with 7 years of USAF related military leadership experience and a bachelors isn't advanced strait to 2LT.

You were in the AF for 7 years, not CAP. CAP isn't the AF, therefor you will need time to learn how it works, just like anyone else. CAP isn't the military.

[USAFRiggerGuy]

Not to simplify it, but in all seriousness, just join the program and have fun working through the steps.  What you are wearing on your shoulder or your sleeve has less relevance than you realize.  Its not really fair to say the rank doesn't mean anything but its more a symbol of your progression through the Professsional Development levels, not your outside education or authority.  I spent many years as a 1LT.  I was a Sq Commander, Mission Pilot, instructor pilot at a law enforcement course CAP assists with... your rank will have nothing to do with how you participate.   There is very much a business side to running CAP as you get more involved.  That is CAP specific.  Its important that CAP has a baseline foundation where everyone starts regardless of what they come in with.  Be proud of that bars and oak leaves you achieve, but keeping it in perspective will ease any issues you have with starting out at the bottom of the totem pole. 

Ive had plenty of former officers who came into CAP as LtCols and they really did nothing but sit and drink coffee and had very little understanding of why the 1LT (me) got to be the Sq Commander.  But yet they had to be held by the hand every time they tried to log onto E-Services....I mean... EVERYTIME!

Seriously though..... as a former Marine and Army Sgt/E5 myself, just have fun learning the organization.  You will see your military experience will be far more relevant making things happen vs how it corresponds with what rank you wear.

This was a great explanation!  Thank you for taking the time to write this up!

[Av8tion]

Not to simplify it, but in all seriousness, just join the program and have fun working through the steps.  What you are wearing on your shoulder or your sleeve has less relevance than you realize.  Its not really fair to say the rank doesn't mean anything but its more a symbol of your progression through the Professsional Development levels, not your outside education or authority.  I spent many years as a 1LT.  I was a Sq Commander, Mission Pilot, instructor pilot at a law enforcement course CAP assists with... your rank will have nothing to do with how you participate.   There is very much a business side to running CAP as you get more involved.  That is CAP specific.  Its important that CAP has a baseline foundation where everyone starts regardless of what they come in with.  Be proud of that bars and oak leaves you achieve, but keeping it in perspective will ease any issues you have with starting out at the bottom of the totem pole. 

Ive had plenty of former officers who came into CAP as LtCols and they really did nothing but sit and drink coffee and had very little understanding of why the 1LT (me) got to be the Sq Commander.  But yet they had to be held by the hand every time they tried to log onto E-Services....I mean... EVERYTIME!

Seriously though..... as a former Marine and Army Sgt/E5 myself, just have fun learning the organization.  You will see your military experience will be far more relevant making things happen vs how it corresponds with what rank you wear.

This was a great explanation!  Thank you for taking the time to write this up!

When you start your way through the program, take some time to explore everything they have to offer instead of focusing on one narrow career path. For example, I just came to CAP to fly after i got furloughed from my airline. Now, I'm a group commander with 11 different specialty tracks. Experience all there is to experience, and learn everything that you can. That way, when you're finally a Lt Col sitting around drinking coffee, you will understand why the 1st Lt gets to be the squadron commander (spoiler alert: because he didn't step back fast enough)

[arajca]

That way, when you're finally a Lt Col sitting around drinking coffee, you will understand why the 1st Lt gets to be the squadron commander (spoiler alert: because he didn't step back fast enough)

I thought it was because they stepped out to use the restroom when everyone voted.

[Av8tion]

That way, when you're finally a Lt Col sitting around drinking coffee, you will understand why the 1st Lt gets to be the squadron commander (spoiler alert: because he didn't step back fast enough)

I thought it was because they stepped out to use the restroom when everyone voted.

No, that's how I became the group commander... it was chili night 

[Luis R. Ramos]

So the outgoing Group/CC invited all of you to chili and the first to react at that diner was made Group/CC?

That was... I guess nasty! But imaginative, I will keep that in mind.

[Av8tion]

So the outgoing Group/CC invited all of you to chili and the first to react at that diner was made Group/CC?

That was... I guess nasty! But imaginative, I will keep that in mind.

There was only 1 bathroom... it shows initiative and planning.

Anyways, I hope the OP visits some units and joins up with an open mind. For those willing to take the time and look there's a lot of great opportunities here.

[Garibaldi]

Yeah...just a bunch of officers sitting around a campfire, eating chili...hey, didn't they make a movie about that very thing once?