Should Senior Training have an expiration date?

[Trung Si Ma]

Last week, the 30th anniversary of my first master rating (216) passed in relative anonymity (where were the balloons?). 

Although a personal milestone, it has made me question the need for some sort of required currency training / examination / evaluation for these older "qualifications".  Some commanders actually look at CAPWATCH to see if people are qualified before offering them a job - I know my Wing King did to come up with his short list of qualified people.  Being recently appointed me to an upper echelon position based on a 25+ year old master rating has me diggin into the books in a manner not seen since college.  I only thought that I had stayed "reasonably current" in this area since it was not my primary focus area.

With no idea of how we would implement a mandatory currency program, or even if we should, I'm looking for comments.

[JC004]

That's a good question...

Perhaps there should at least be a requirement to prove you're up to speed when there are significant changes to a specialty's relevant regs.  ES, Ops, and Cadet Programs being some of the most likely to be impacted.  It could be an online test or something, just to verify you know the new stuff.

Of course what happens if you are not really active in a specialty track and have completed your master rating years ago or something?

[DNall]

I saw a guy yesterday doing a prof dev seminar & taking the job at Gp level. Top of his rack was a silver star, DFC, & Air Medal with several cluters. He's been heavily involved w/ PD in several wings & worked on some aspects of the PME on the AF side back in the day. He was of the strong opinion that over 20yo PME should not count. It'd be hard for me to make that case, but I find it hard to argue with him about it. If you're going to look at something like that then for sure there should be currency certification on the spec tracks. The AF does it w/ AFSCs, all the services do. It's pretty well the standard in the civilian world that you have to do some klind of CE, at least in professionally degreed jobs. Hell, I have to do that for my fireworks shooting license that I use twice a year at best. We do it in ES every three years on every specialty... Can't see how you could make a case against it other than the work to get it done. While you're at it, could you get them to make the things worth a crap in the first place. A couple are okay, but most are a joke. We talked about going to a four level system also so you don't get a badge for the useless bottom (apprentice) level, & we can beef up the tech level to not needing supervision standards.

[capchiro]

I think the ratings are much like pilot wings.  Once you have earned them, they should remain.  A pilot/observer keeps their wings even if not flying or current.  If a commander looks at CAPWATCH and sees someone has/had a master's rating in PAO, it should let him know that the individual has some idea as to how PAO works.  He can then talk to the individual and see how current he is.  The other thing is that the individual with the master's rating, even if 20 years non-currency, should be able to look at the training track and come back up to speed fairly quickly.  It's hard enough to keep members current in ES specialities to worry about currency in admin or personnel.  If a Wing Commander asks someone to come on board with old ratings, the individual requested should decide if they have the time to come up to speed and if they can handle it.  If not, the proper response should be, thanks, but no thanks.

[Dragoon]

USAF doesn't normally have this problem because of the concept of "up or out."

Quite simply, there's no freakin' way you're going to be assigned to the same job you did 20 years ago.  You've either been promoted to a higher level or responsibility (with new skills), or you're fired.

That said, there is ofted some mandatory upgrade training if you are going back to command something that you haven't worked in since you were a junior officer years ago.  It's more an overview - since you aren't expected to know all the details of every junior's job.

I think I'd support, at a minimum, some written test every five years or so to keep  your PD "quals" for the purposes of badge wear and level progression.  You'd keep the stars on your leadership ribbon forever.  But if you went inactive for 5 years and suddenly came back and wanted your master rating for level IV, I don't think it would be bad to take the current senior-level test for your specialty first.

[Eclipse]

An interesting point, one I hadn't considered.

ES stuff has required recurrency training, why shoudn't PD?

Could be something on the level of pilots, yo earn the badge once,m but if you aren't current, you can't be that "thing".

The problem is that there is no requirement to earn the rating for the staff job.  (i.e. yo don't have to be A Finance Officer, to be THE Finance Manager).

[DNall]

USAF doesn't normally have this problem because of the concept of "up or out."

Quite simply, there's no freakin' way you're going to be assigned to the same job you did 20 years ago.  You've either been promoted to a higher level or responsibility (with new skills), or you're fired.

That said, there is ofted some mandatory upgrade training if you are going back to command something that you haven't worked in since you were a junior officer years ago.  It's more an overview - since you aren't expected to know all the details of every junior's job.

I think I'd support, at a minimum, some written test every five years or so to keep  your PD "quals" for the purposes of badge wear and level progression.  You'd keep the stars on your leadership ribbon forever.  But if you went inactive for 5 years and suddenly came back and wanted your master rating for level IV, I don't think it would be bad to take the current senior-level test for your specialty first.

Not talking about the same job, talking about the career field. Also not saying you should have to remove the badge. The point is, just like ES ratings, you'd have to maintain or re-gain currency in the career field to work in it. What's wrong with continuing education to keep your skills sharp. You see a senior officer in the AF w/ pilot wings commanding a some other kind of non-flying unit. They keep the winfgs, bu tthey can't jsut go backl to flying, they'd have to either stay current or go get a refresher & retrain on a new aircraft. As rare as you'd think that would be, at least in the guard/res it's not at all. People move from C130s & hadn't flown professionally (mil or civilian) in five years to flying an F16. It happens. One of our CAP-RAPs down here went from transports to A10s with abreak in between. Heard of a NY ANG Col that picked up helos after flying transports.

[Dragoon]

Yup, but as Eclipse pointed out, we aren't likely to say "I'm sorry, but since you aren't current in Finance, you can't be our Squadron Finance Officer."

We're gonna take what we can get - and like it.  And there will be no incentive for that guy to ever become "current."

That's why I like the idea of the badge coming off if you lose currency - it might shame folks into keeping current.  Yeah, it ain't the military model (it's not like I'm ready to jump out of planes anymore because of an 20 year old Airborne badge), but it would fit CAP's unique situation.

Again, one of CAP's basic issues - we can't make someone do a job they don't want to do, and we can't force people to commute huge distances to fill in a vacancy in another unit.  People work where they want to.

So we need to have a system that rewards people who do the work (and training) that we want done. 

[DNall]

Well yeah, you take someone off the street & put them in slot, then they are in the tech track also & should earn that rating. A person with a master rating that's not current could do the same thing. They'd jus tbe doing a refresher as they took over the position. Where the difference comes in is to keep a job you have to stay current in it, to be assigned at a higher echelon you have to have a master rating & be current, or at least get an exception to policy letter from the Wg CC cause you're somehow better qualified than any other master rated person in the Wg. I don't know about other places, but in a Wg of 3000 people it's a big deal to be on Wg staff.

The point is the continuing education!!! You agree that should be part of the spec tracks is staying current & continuing to expand your knowledge right? Maybe it cuts down so you have to focus on being/staying expert in a smaller number of things, that's great. Don't let the discussion of how to implement it cause you to toss out the idea. Just keep working the angles to we can make it work.

[Dragoon]

Well yeah, you take someone off the street & put them in slot, then they are in the tech track also & should earn that rating. A person with a master rating that's not current could do the same thing. They'd jus tbe doing a refresher as they took over the position. Where the difference comes in is to keep a job you have to stay current in it, to be assigned at a higher echelon you have to have a master rating & be current, or at least get an exception to policy letter from the Wg CC cause you're somehow better qualified than any other master rated person in the Wg. I don't know about other places, but in a Wg of 3000 people it's a big deal to be on Wg staff.

The point is the continuing education!!! You agree that should be part of the spec tracks is staying current & continuing to expand your knowledge right? Maybe it cuts down so you have to focus on being/staying expert in a smaller number of things, that's great. Don't let the discussion of how to implement it cause you to toss out the idea. Just keep working the angles to we can make it work.

The way to work the angles is to identify the roadblocks.

Here's the big roadblock.

You do not currently have lots of highly trained individuals chomping at the bit to work at Wing.  And you can't MAKE them work there.

So, if you say "Bill, you need to get current or you're fired" you run a great risk of having an empty slot.  Which helps no one.  Or, you'll end up having to take the one guy who wants the job, whether or not he actually is the right guy.

Because the "right guys" keep saying "why do I want to work at Wing?"

So before we mandate things like "currency" we have to first make these jobs attractive enough that folks really want them, and are willing to jump through the hoops to get there.

Honestly, how many hoops are you willing to jump through in order to be a Wing Logistics Officer?  How many fully qualified applicants did you have apply to be the Wing Professional Development Officer.


This is why I keep hammering position-based grade.  Since we can't PAY folks to do the tough jobs....we can at least reward them with a snappy salute and "sir" from the folks that don't do the tough jobs.

But in the meantime, if currency is an issue, taking away someone's specialty badge "bling" if they aren't current might just motivate them to remain so.  No one wants to be publically identified as "out of date."

But if you can get the incentives right for these tough jobs, you can easily ratchet up the standards. Because if the incumbent doesn't want to meet the standards, you've got three candidates lined up who do.

[Al Sayre]

I'm in the process of making a Senior Member Progression Chart just like we use for cadets.  I figured if they have to see the fact that the last time they accomplished anything in PD was 5 years ago, every time they walk in the door, it might motivate a few of them to start working on their professional development again...YMMV

[sandman]

One of my collateral duties (on active duty) is "training officer". A lot of annual training for professional development is accomplised online. My job is to hound those individuals who are late in turning in their training certificates.

I see basic, senior, and, master levels (for each specialty) requiring annual PD requirements which can be accessed from the NHQ site.

Although a CAP officer has achieved the master level in, let's say, cadet programs, that officer should access continuing education online (or the occasional onsite class) to maintain that master level.

If that officer is not up to date in training, then what should be the consequence and how will it be enforced?

I have had to suspend doctors from performing surgery because their BLS card was expired. That was very quickly fixed however (as instructor, I was able to recertify them that day).

[Becks]

I'm in the process of making a Senior Member Progression Chart just like we use for cadets.  I figured if they have to see the fact that the last time they accomplished anything in PD was 5 years ago, every time they walk in the door, it might motivate a few of them to start working on their professional development again...YMMV

Ours is sitting right out in the hallway in plain view, makes it easy to see what you need to do to continue your PD as well as who has gone stagnant.

[Monty]

You know, as a side-thought....

While I would agree that there are merits for keeping current on ProDev, the hypothetical aim for those that pursue ProDev (especially RSC grads and beyond) is that they'll keep themselves current, on their own.

I did mention hypothetical, didn't I?   

I know it sticks in some folks' crawl wrong, but CAP is a civilian model and it is more likely to compare CAP's ProDev with civilian education vs. the AF's PME.  With that in mind, you'll be hard pressed to see anybody with a BA/BS degree go back to school to "freshen up."

Come to think of it, you won't find Colonel Joe Air Force going back to ACSC either for a "touch up."

All well and all good to want to keep folks proficient in their ProDev (if you want my PERSONAL opinion).  However, until folks live or die by the academic skills gained though ProDev (as is more likely the case in ES ratings), there will be no requirement for folks to "re-certify" their ProDev.

Not in a Civil Air Patrol staffed with volunteers.  No way, no how, no chance, no time.  Only alternative I could see would be for a guy/gal to voluntarily choose to re-attend a course.  (In the cases of RSCs and NSCs...I really don't see that as plausible unless a member is local to the spot in which those courses occur.)

The real question worth exploring might be, "if we see a person who HAS the ProDev not using it, should we DECERTIFY them?"

I see on all these CAP forums quite a few folks that probably brain-regurgitated their barely-memorized answers for AFIADL 13 and then quickly dumped the data, and instead....went right back to their mouthy, unprofessional ways of doing CAP business...

How's that for a thread vector?      

[Dragoon]

If that officer is not up to date in training, then what should be the consequence and how will it be enforced?

You've got it.

In CAP, "decertifying" someone from a staff job might be considered a reward!   

[DNall]

Actually, it may be different in other places, but Wg staff is a big deal here & we got no issues filling most slots. hell the CP chart alone is 2 pages long with deputy asst to teh asst deputy vice activities officer stuff - not really, it's people in charge of all kinds of individual programs, but it is 2 pages on names & all quite good. We don't really have an issue filling jobs. Gp is a bit trickier, but 95% of them stay working at the local level in addition to a Gp staff job. Hell, the Gp/CP is a Sq CC.

If that officer is not up to date in training, then what should be the consequence and how will it be enforced?

That's the key.

Yeah people aren't going to go back to school to freshen up the BA or repeat ACSC just for fun, but every engineer, doctor, nurse, attorney, etc is required to take continuing education credits each year to stay licensed. We need people to stay on top of changes in their career field, and to keep abreast of developments, share ideas between each other, etc. Nothing hard, just responsible. Now, how to enforce it & get participation, that's the dig & I don't know really.

The real question worth exploring might be, "if we see a person who HAS the ProDev not using it, should we DECERTIFY them?"

Now there's a thought. 

[sandman]

Yeah people aren't going to go back to school to freshen up the BA or repeat ACSC just for fun, but every engineer, doctor, nurse, attorney, etc is required to take continuing education credits each year to stay licensed. We need people to stay on top of changes in their career field, and to keep abreast of developments, share ideas between each other, etc. Nothing hard, just responsible. Now, how to enforce it & get participation, that's the dig & I don't know really.

Absolutely. As I mentioned, online CE courses are ideal. CE's could be offered in the "Volunteer" magazine. The example I am thinking about is the CE credit's in professional magazines such as "RN", "AORN", and others (specific magazines for Registered Nurses) where there are articles to be read with questionnaires filled out and sent in.

These CE's are required in order to renew a license (MD, RN, etc).

CAP CE courses could range from general updates within CAP to specialty track specific courses in order to maintain currency.

Tracking core competencies and subsequent CE's could be done at wing level. Officers not current could be suspended from participating in operations (sorties) or directly working with cadets until the required CE's are completed. This would require squadrons/flights to have e-mail access, and would require the wing IS guru to be competent in notifying individuals and units of the individuals status.

[Dragoon]

Actually, it may be different in other places, but Wg staff is a big deal here & we got no issues filling most slots. hell the CP chart alone is 2 pages long with deputy asst to teh asst deputy vice activities officer stuff - not really, it's people in charge of all kinds of individual programs, but it is 2 pages on names & all quite good. We don't really have an issue filling jobs. Gp is a bit trickier, but 95% of them stay working at the local level in addition to a Gp staff job. Hell, the Gp/CP is a Sq CC.

Methinks you're a bit unique.    Most wings I've seen are constantly trying to get quality people for the not fun jobs.  Sure, it's easy to get a Director of Cadet Programs - that's fun stuff.   The support jobs are truly a pain.  I think, for example, that only about half the Wings in the country have an active, serving legal officer (according to ours).

But, if you've got people beating down the door to take the Wing jobs, then you're in a position to threaten to fire anyone who won't jump through additional quality hoops.  Not all of us are so lucky.

[DNall]

Yeah people aren't going to go back to school to freshen up the BA or repeat ACSC just for fun, but every engineer, doctor, nurse, attorney, etc is required to take continuing education credits each year to stay licensed. We need people to stay on top of changes in their career field, and to keep abreast of developments, share ideas between each other, etc. Nothing hard, just responsible. Now, how to enforce it & get participation, that's the dig & I don't know really.

Absolutely. As I mentioned, online CE courses are ideal. CE's could be offered in the "Volunteer" magazine. The example I am thinking about is the CE credit's in professional magazines such as "RN", "AORN", and others (specific magazines for Registered Nurses) where there are articles to be read with questionnaires filled out and sent in.

These CE's are required in order to renew a license (MD, RN, etc).

CAP CE courses could range from general updates within CAP to specialty track specific courses in order to maintain currency.

Tracking core competencies and subsequent CE's could be done at wing level. Officers not current could be suspended from participating in operations (sorties) or directly working with cadets until the required CE's are completed. This would require squadrons/flights to have e-mail access, and would require the wing IS guru to be competent in notifying individuals and units of the individuals status.

Yes sir! Exactly what I was thinking. You don't have to say, "sorry Bob but you can't be the personnel officer anymore," You say, "sorry Bob, but you can't fly anymore until you get current on personnel or some other career field." You could submit articles on topics in your field - personnel covers uniforms, decorations, etc; admin's got mgmt techniques; finance has fundraising, grant writing, accounting... it's not hard to find interesting aspects of boring jobs. Those papers then add to the general knoweledge others can draw from. Don't want to write an article, then read some & write a reaction/participate in a discussion (what do we do here again), or do a project, something.

[Trung Si Ma]

I can see that we're getting some good discussions going here.

One of the new questions to be asked, based on the discussions here, is the latency of the Specialty Badge.  Do we consider it a historical accomplishment badge or a currency badge?

I believe that the ribbons are the historical record - three silver stars on your leadership ribbon - and am beginning to believe that the specialty badges should be considered currency badges (i.e. see my cadet programs master badge showing that I am current as a master level CP-er).

Comments?