What AM I Joining?

[RLM10_2_06]

The Civil Air Patrol. The official Auxiliary of the U.S. Air Force, an organization that also happens to be a non-profit corporation. Why, then, do I feel like this is some kind of two-faced organization? I don't want to be another pawn to be squeezed for money and forgotten about like every other corporation I've ever been associated with. What am I getting myself into? Why on Earth is this a CORPORATION? Last I checked, none of our Armed Forces are corporations, nor are ANY of their reserve components, nor is the freakin Public Health Service.

Government-owned corporations are VERY few and far between, and every one that I've seen doesn't have this "two-faced" appearance; the Post Office? Very simple; you mail your junk. Amtrak? Ride a train. Doesn't get much simpler than that. AmeriCorps? Who would think to point a finger at them and say "you're a two-faced corporation"? Why, then, is Civil Air Patrol so different?

I have yet to submit my application, but I'm legitimately wondering if it's even worth saving up the $63 that could fill my gas tank three times (yay gas efficiency!). I simply want to work in Cadet Programs and help kids learn a little something about life; JROTC turned me around, and I'm sure that CAP is doing the same for kids, and I want to do the same. Why, then, do I feel like I'm going to be able to do no good past the rank of Captain (or really, Senior Flight Officer), for fear of being sucked into this CORPORATION'S money and political games? I have two Captains in the squadron that I'm trying to join, and they've been Captains for YEARS, and wouldn't be progressing in rank at ALL if not for HQ swooping down on them and saying that they HAVE to. Is this what I'm destined for?

[Eclipse]

I simply want to work in Cadet Programs and help kids learn a little something about life.

You will.

As a new member your best bet is to ignore the national politics and the related threads here and just concentrate on local squadron activities.

Its worth your time and effort, and most members are completely unaware of much beyond their Group or Wing, which is how it should be.

There is no requirement to progress past Captain, and grade is only tangentially unrelated to your success as a leader - we need to set a good example of professional development if we expect our cadets to do the same, but nothing one says you ever have to leave the squadron.

The vast majority of the training and member experience happens in weekly unit meetings, with the whole point of extra-unit activities
being intended to support that experience.

[JC004]

You really seem to be putting too much importance on this corporation thing.  There are a bunch of government corporations, federal, state, and local.  Yes, National Passenger Rail Corporation (whose preferred stock is owned by the federal government), but others come to mind like PBS/NPR.  It simply makes us a legal entity and the status granted under section 501(c)3 of the Internal Revenue Code allows for donations to be tax-deductible (in addition to the other things that status does).  It kind of makes it like being able to donate to PBS.

There is a sort of unique status as an auxiliary, but the way the law is written, it makes it easy for others to be created.  There is also the Coast Guard Auxiliary.  They are also a corporation.

It is just a legal entity that can do things like engage in contracts.  It is separate from the people who are members of it and from the government.  It doesn't die when its founders die and it doesn't require all the mess of being a government agency - for instance, being subject to UCMJ and the tons of laws that deal with the status of government employees.

[tdepp]

RLM:

While our organization is a little different than most (USAFAux and a private, non-profit corporation), for most members, as has been pointed out, the organizational thing really doesn't matter until it comes to figuring out who pays for a mission. 

Most of the work is done at the squadron, group, and wing level.  Let the commanders (and us enlightened beings on CAPTalk  ) worry about the politics. 

Just dig in, help make the Cadets better people, and I think you'll have an excellent experience. CAP is no different than most organizations and has it's own brand of goofy at times.  Like every other place I've worked or been a volunteer.

I hope you join.

[LTC Don]

I joined CAP as a cadet in late 1982 (Oh, I also did a 2-year stint in AFJROTC, c/2Lt.).  I am still a member; a Lt. Col.  If you have a couple of Captains who really have been at that grade for 'years', then perhaps there are some issues there.

Bottom line with this organization is: You will get out of CAP only what effort you put in.

If you want to progress, then you have to work at it and progress through the Professional Development Program.  It will not come to you.

Start reading the regulations that specifically pertain to you.  Especially the CAPR 50-17.

Get out and get to the various schools.  To reach the grade of Lt. Col. takes about eight years.  It will not just fall in your lap.

Don't get hung up in the politics and so forth.  CAP is first a foremost a volunteer organization, and that means all types of personalities are present and accounted for.  If you have never formally volunteered with an organization like this, nor found yourself in a management level position where your decisions can have real life consequences; then you need to slow down, and do a lot of reading and listening.  You either subscribe to the ideals of the organization, or you don't.  If you don't, then don't waste your gas tank money.

If you are into participating in the Cadet Program, then you will want to become VERY familiar with CAPR 52-16.

The career Captains at your potential home unit should at least be able to help you get to those regulations.

If that unit is not 'floating your boat', then check around for other units.

Good Luck!


Cheers,

[lordmonar]

RLM

CAP is NOT Captalk!

Do not try to get a handle on what CAP is like by what you see here.

We (that includes ME too!) take ourselves a little too seriously here because we are passionate about CAP and (let's call a dog a dog) we like to hear ourselves argue. 

It is true that there are issues and politics and down right smarmy things going on in CAP....but 90% of the time you never see them at the unit level.

Thanks for wanting to join....thanks for taking an intrest in the program and thanks for asking questions.

I hope you choose to join.....it is a very rewarding organisation!  It IMHO worth every minute of the time you put in and ever dime you put in.

Captalk is a microcosm of CAP.  We blow things out of proportion so we can talk about them.  So take what you read here with a grain (or a pound  ) of salt.

Join.  Have fun.  Do some good for your cadets and your community.  If the corporate issues worry you....do what most people do....ignore them.

[davedove]

Get out and get to the various schools.  To reach the grade of Lt. Col. takes about eight years.  It will not just fall in your lap.

Actually, unless a person gets an advance promotion for one of the myriad reasons available, it takes ten years to reach Lt Col.

1/2    year as a SM
1       year as a 2d Lt
1 1/2 years as a 1st Lt
3       years as a Capt
4       years as a Maj

[Flying Pig]

I was a 1Lt for about 10 years and made Captain last year, nobody has EVER told me that I needed to promote.  If they did, I would laugh hysterically and say "Ok, and your going to do what about it?"
I am a Sq Commander, former Deputy COmmander for Cadets, and a Mission Pilot.  I have had a blast in CAP.  I have been in two branches of the military (USMC and USA) and have been in Law Enforcement for 12 years so I have my experience in dealing with government agencies.   You wont be disappointed.  CAP can be a complicated animal to a new member.  When you get in, we have courses that help you understand what CAP is.  Level 1, SLS, CLC, and the online Officer Basic Course.
Quite honestly, the "corporation" aspect of CAP really has no bearing on anything you do in the program.  If you are interested in working in cadet programs, you'll have a good time.  As far as Senior member ranks, don't get hung up on it.  Your rank is a symbol of your professional development.  It really has nothing to do with what you can participate in.  There are directors of Wing level programs who are 1Lt's in CAWG.

[Parsifal]

As far as Senior member ranks, don't get hung up on it.  Your rank is a symbol of your professional development.  It really has nothing to do with what you can participate in.  There are directors of Wing level programs who are 1Lt's in CAWG.

That's the nice thing about CAP. In the regular military (or at least the Army), as you move up as an officer, you become increasingly disengaged from the troops, training, and field work. Just as you start learning your job and becoming proficient in basic technical/tactical skills, you are rotated to another assignment. You rarely get the chance to move down again to the really tactical level. In CAP, you can still get your hands dirty, regardless of rank, if you want to.

[Eclipse]

RLM

CAP is NOT Captalk!

Do not try to get a handle on what CAP is like by what you see here.

We (that includes ME too!) take ourselves a little too seriously here because we are passionate about CAP and (let's call a dog a dog) we like to hear ourselves argue. 

+10¹⁰

[Flying Pig]

As far as Senior member ranks, don't get hung up on it.  Your rank is a symbol of your professional development.  It really has nothing to do with what you can participate in.  There are directors of Wing level programs who are 1Lt's in CAWG.

That's the nice thing about CAP. In the regular military (or at least the Army), as you move up as an officer, you become increasingly disengaged from the troops, training, and field work. Just as you start learning your job and becoming proficient in basic technical/tactical skills, you are rotated to another assignment. You rarely get the chance to move down again to the really tactical level. In CAP, you can still get your hands dirty, regardless of rank, if you want to.

Maybe we should just all be Warrant Officers?  Oh no....Ive gone and done it again.  I bet now we will get 25 pages out of this one! 

[DBlair]

An issue he seems to be stuck on is that CAP is a "corporation" and so I will attempt to explain this a bit.

Corporations are merely an administrative/legal method of formally forming/recognizing an entity under the law. There are various other legal alternatives to form an organization, but the basic concept is that a corporation can be for-profit or non-profit. Non-profit organizations are incorporated (formed) by filing various paperwork and being recognized by the IRS as a non-profit, etc.

Charities, community organizations, and the many types of non-profits are all technically "corporations" with the difference being that in most cases a person or group of people "incorporated" (formed) the organization with their specific state and with CAP, it was "incorporated" (formed, also known as "chartered") as a civilian non-profit entity by Congress, which was assigned to be the Auxiliary of the USAF. Being a "corporation" in this case just means that it was officially formed as a nonprofit organization and thus is not a "corporation" in the traditional sense that I feel concerns you.


Regarding other areas he mentioned...

Re: Being Captains for years... well, they'd have to be as 3 years TIG is required for promotion to Major. Also, don't forget that promotions are in most cases related to a person's willingness to go off and do professional development courses and various training. It is all about whether the member takes the initiative to advance. I know plenty of great senior members who have been First Lieutenants for many years simply because they'd rather focus on the local squadron operation and have no interest in professional development/promotions. It really is what you make of it. There are time-in-grade (TIG) requirements for promotion as well as professional development and service requirements, but if you want to promote and advance in the organization, the opportunity is certainly there, but its on you to make it happen.

Re: Getting involved with the Cadet Program... I do encourage you to join and get involved with the Cadet Program. Your previous experience can certainly be helpful and I'm confident you will be an asset to your unit. I too got involved once again as an adult as a result of the great experiences I had as a Cadet and a willingness to give back/help others. I feel that having this previous experience often helps when dealing with Cadets and think it will prove useful for you as well.

[lordmonar]

As far as Senior member ranks, don't get hung up on it.  Your rank is a symbol of your professional development.  It really has nothing to do with what you can participate in.  There are directors of Wing level programs who are 1Lt's in CAWG.

That's the nice thing about CAP. In the regular military (or at least the Army), as you move up as an officer, you become increasingly disengaged from the troops, training, and field work. Just as you start learning your job and becoming proficient in basic technical/tactical skills, you are rotated to another assignment. You rarely get the chance to move down again to the really tactical level. In CAP, you can still get your hands dirty, regardless of rank, if you want to.

Maybe we should just all be Warrant Officers?  Oh no....Ive gone and done it again.  I bet now we will get 25 pages out of this one! 

:clap:

[LTC Don]

I know plenty of great senior members who have been First Lieutenants for many years simply because they'd rather focus on the local squadron operation and have no interest in professional development/promotions.

This has always been a bit of a paradox.  Members who are career (insert field grade here) for very long periods of time, and yet show no interest in professional development 'for the cause' of focusing on squadron operations.  It is a bit of a disservice because those members who shrug off the PD fail to become better CAP members because they don't participate in the PD program, not taking the very training that would help them.

I hope the OP comes back into the discussion...........


Cheers,

[tsrup]

I know plenty of great senior members who have been First Lieutenants for many years simply because they'd rather focus on the local squadron operation and have no interest in professional development/promotions.

This has always been a bit of a paradox.  Members who are career (insert field grade here) for very long periods of time, and yet show no interest in professional development 'for the cause' of focusing on squadron operations.  It is a bit of a disservice because those members who shrug off the PD fail to become better CAP members because they don't participate in the PD program, not taking the very training that would help them.

I hope the OP comes back into the discussion...........


Cheers,

It really depends on the squadron.  Up  until a few weeks ago we only had 3 senior members who were active (of course in the past couple of weeks we've had 4 more turn in paper work, so things are changing) so the three of us had multiple hats to wear and multiple operations to be held accountable for.  It doesn't really lend well to keeping track of what we need for the next level.  Did it make us bad at what we did?  I'd like to think that being awarded squadron of the year each of the last two years might speak for itself. 
However, now that we have a full time Professional Development officer and some of the other staff duties have been redistributed we all now have a better understanding of where we need to go next.

Moral of the story?
Advancing levels helps develop a better officer, but it's not to say that the three career captains you ran into are not working their butts off, not to mention that it takes a considerable amount of work to reach the grade of Captain.

[RiverAux]

There is also the Coast Guard Auxiliary.  They are also a corporation.

Actually, it is not.  There is the Coast Guard Auxiliary and the Coast Guard Auxiliary Association and they are not the same thing.  Although there are some superficial similarities in that the leadership of the Assoc. is the same as the leadership of the Auxiliary (above a certain level) thats about it.  Basically the Association functions as a 5013c that provides support to the CG Auxiliary and handles some of the money issues associated with running the CG Aux -- it is not THE CG Auxiliary in the same way that CAP is an AF auxiliary.   

[FW]

For many, IMHO, the PD program is a great way to learn more about the organization and get some pointers on management/leadership.  However, getting promoted is not important for the vast majority of members.  I know of quite a few members who are still SMWOG after years of active membership.  They are working diligently at their CAP "job" and could not care less about what they are wearing on their shoulders.  Some of these members hold advanced degrees in management or, hold high ranking government positions (including general officers; active or retired). 

I think the most important aspect of membership is the ability to serve.  How you wish to serve is your choice.  I would just enjoy the experience best you can.  As everyone else has said; CAP is not CT.  CAP is a wonderful way to spend time productively and to give back for your successes in life.   I truly feel the $63 you spend each year will be well worth it if you really want to serve. Politics at the national level is just good entertainment for most of us on CT...... except for uniforms.

[RLM10_2_06]

I feel like the world rushed past me; I've been at class all day and basically missed the conversation

There's a lot of good points here that allay many of my fears about CAP. I think one of the biggest things that looms over me though is the National level operations; again, I have no desire to work up there, but at the same time, their actions DO affect the squadron level. I think the official web site's description threw me the most. Basically, I got:

A board looks at an action, votes, makes a decision, then...passes it up to another board of over SIXTY people, who have probably NEVER been in the same room, rinse and repeat, then...ANOTHER BOARD?! It just seems like nothing more than a bureaucratic mess that gets NOTHING done. How will this affect squadron operation? I think the only "order" I've seen was from the National Commander when she ordered the changes to the CSU and the phase-out date. Even then, however, how many hoops did she have to jump through? What happened to being the auxiliary of a military organization that can actually GIVE AND ENFORCE ORDERS? I am all too aware that the Chair Force has many problems with this very thing, but really? Three sets of people, many of whom are a middle link of the chain of command?

*Change of pace*

On a side note, where can I get some information about Ground Team work? I'm really interested in working something like that.

[SarDragon]

Actually, that group of 60+ members gets together in the same room twice a year, and a subset of the group meets twice more a year. The vast majority of them have been involved at the lower levels - squadron, group, wing and region.

[RLM10_2_06]

Good to know, but nonetheless still ridiculous in my book. I mean really, they're asking the subordinate levels to make their executive decisions before they even look at them themselves. It's like watching the Army ask their Brigade Commanders to vote on something, and passing it up to maybe the Division Commanders (I know I'm skipping around command levels), THEN letting the National level look at a NATIONAL-LEVEL DECISION.

Honestly, feedback from the lower levels is great, but an entire decisive board to vote on issues seems unnecessary. If you want a National decision, let all the national people decide and let the Region and Wing Commanders do their respective jobs. If that's their jobs...why do they exist in the first place, except to be placeholders between the Group/Squadron levels and National Command? I know a Wing Commander has more important things to do than worry about the latest idea floating around Maxwell's CAP building(s). If NHQ wants feedback, I would think they'll ASK, not tell two different levels of command to work together to decide FOR them.

If I'm missing something somewhere, PLEASE let me know 

[SarDragon]

I think reading CAPR 20-1 will answer most of your questions and give a much better understanding about what's going on. Right now, you seem to be making some unfounded, incorrect assumptions.

[RLM10_2_06]

*Insert massive humbling here*

Dang, that just fixed a WHOLE bunch of things in my mind. It's amazing what a bit of inconsistency between this directive and their web site can do. Thanks a load for the link, SarDragon.

Okay, so now I'll simply assume that the workings of national level are far beyond my peon understanding and go about my business

Incidentally, the stuff earlier in this thread about the Professional Development program is good to know; so, to see if I get this...PD Program = individual progression (part of promotions and whatnot), and advancement in Specialty Tracks. In addition, I don't HAVE to serve in higher-level positions until CAP Colonel, if I so choose (and if I get there)?

Also, should I take my Ground Team question to another thread?

[davedove]

On a side note, where can I get some information about Ground Team work? I'm really interested in working something like that.

Also, should I take my Ground Team question to another thread?

Your best bet would be to check out a squadron that has a ground team and see what they do.  Not all squadrons will have a ground team, although many do.  And how extensive their program is can vary a lot.

[Seabee219]

  What I do is forget all the he said, she said, national said, and so forth and do it for the squadron. I am in a squadron that does not get 1/4 the recognition it deserves, but I forget all that and take care of my own and we do a good job of it. IF you like to serve in CAP and do not mind the fee, then make the best of it. (not that you do not do that now).  People like you who do care, will stand out and make a change for the better when you make it to National.    Take care all

[OldSalt]

I think reading CAPR 20-1 will answer most of your questions and give a much better understanding about what's going on. Right now, you seem to be making some unfounded, incorrect assumptions.

Very good resource  :clap:  - except it is a little out of date and needs revising. Doesn't include the Board of Governors above the NB and the NEC.