CAPR 60-1 5 Jan 2009 Posted on eServices

[Eclipse]

I can't do my job and manage flights all day. People can pound their chests all they want about the duties of an FRO, which never before included being responsible for starting search procedures within a two hour window, but the simple fact is not all of us can conform with this reg, nor do we want the personal financial liability for the failure to start a search at T+2 hours.

<<*pound*>>  <<*pound*>>  ((*cough*)) ...that really HURTS!

Then what's the point of bring an FRO to start with?

This is another one of those self-evident things I always assumed was a basic tenant of being an FRO - responsibility for keeping an eye on the airplane getting back safely.

Your job allows you to take the time to receive the FRO call, run through the checklist, etc., but a few hours later you can't take the "wheels down" call, or, a few hours later than that, make a call to an IC, etc., that they are considered late but you can't be involved in a search right now?

[Auxpilot]

I can't do my job and manage flights all day. People can pound their chests all they want about the duties of an FRO, which never before included being responsible for starting search procedures within a two hour window, but the simple fact is not all of us can conform with this reg, nor do we want the personal financial liability for the failure to start a search at T+2 hours.

<<*pound*>>  <<*pound*>>  ((*cough*)) ...that really HURTS!

Then what's the point of bring an FRO to start with?

This is another one of those self-evident things I always assumed was a basic tenant of being an FRO - responsibility for keeping an eye on the airplane getting back safely.

Your job allows you to take the time to receive the FRO call, run through the checklist, etc., but a few hours later you can't take the "wheels down" call, or, a few hours later than that, make a call to an IC, etc., that they are considered late but you can't be involved in a search right now?

You miss the point completely. There is a big difference between "keeping an eye on the airplane" and being responsible for initiating a search at a definite point in time.

I can take the calls as I can, or they go to my VM and I deal with them later. I can't be sitting in a meeting with clients and tell them to sit tight while I check on my flight crews. Likewise I will not accept the legal responsibility of starting a search on time. If I am at a mission working as Air Ops or something like that there is no issue with this as I can devote 100% of my time to making sure that the planes come back when they are supposed to.

Common sense tells us that as and FRO we would start making calls if a crew does not call us within a reasonable time but a "reasonable time" was never mandated by regulation. Now that it is my absolute responsibility to start a search within two hours, I cannot always committ to living up to my end of the bargin. During the week I will tell my flight crews that they MUST file a VFR flight plan or I will not release the flight, period.

[Al Sayre]

FWIW, during our Wing CI this weekend, I had a discussion about this with the folks from NHQ who were inspecting Ops.  Starting search procedures would be the standard stuff like calling the pilots home and cell, then the FBO, then notifying the FAA.  Most of us start calling home and cell phones and FBO's if someone is more than an hour overdue anyway.  Once you've made the first call, your phone logs would back you up.  The reg still says we are not dispatchers and NHQ doesn't intend to be shifting any legal responsibilities by adding this to the Reg.

[Eclipse]

You miss the point completely. There is a big difference between "keeping an eye on the airplane" and being responsible for initiating a search at a definite point in time.

No, I'm not missing the point, I'm making it.

FRO's are supposed to be responsible for knowing where the plane is, thats the point of why we have them.

During the week I will tell my flight crews that they MUST file a VFR flight plan or I will not release the flight, period.

In which case one of two things will happen, either resulting in what appears to be what you want, anyway.

A) Pilots will stop calling you and release with someone else.

B) You'll be told to stop making your own rules, and probably quit being an FRO.

[Auxpilot]

FWIW, during our Wing CI this weekend, I had a discussion about this with the folks from NHQ who were inspecting Ops.  Starting search procedures would be the standard stuff like calling the pilots home and cell, then the FBO, then notifying the FAA.  Most of us start calling home and cell phones and FBO's if someone is more than an hour overdue anyway.  Once you've made the first call, your phone logs would back you up.  The reg still says we are not dispatchers and NHQ doesn't intend to be shifting any legal responsibilities by adding this to the Reg.

All good points however NHQ does not determine legal responsibility, blood sucking leaches do. By writing the regulation the way they did FRO's accept the responsibility via their release of the flight. The civil responsibility then shifts from the pilot, who should have arranged someone to start looking for them (FAA via flight plan, wife, etc.), to the FRO who has now taken over the responsibility.

Sounds like a trivial matter until one finds himself in a court of law.

[Eclipse]

Its not like this is anything new, as an FRO you're already accepting huge responsibility in that yo are confirming the pilot is legal to fly the plane (based on documentation provided by your wing, and has the proper uniform and credentials on his person (not to mention the rest of the checklist).

[heliodoc]

So Eclipse

Maybe CAP pilots ought to file an FAA flight plan for local area and put the FRO's out of business, which I know, won't.

I don't know of any FRO's that do not have a job or a life

But you sure stating what everyone already knows about  here.....  "the ability to step up to the plate."

Here's one for you .... how come CAP did this before FRO's?? Simple  LAWYERS

Here's one for YOU  Do those FRO's always know where those CAP aircraft are?? Do those CAP FRO's all sit by a radar screen tracking the flight

CAP had better investing in  dispatcher training for those folks....you think an online test makes you an expert??

Online tests are really not real testing like FAA testing and really how would an online test hold up in a court of law as say, an FAA certificate??

Eclipse, you got some quick answers for that one?? You sure got plenty of answers on this forum for everyone....

[Auxpilot]

Its not like this is anything new, as an FRO you're already accepting huge responsibility in that yo are confirming the pilot is legal to fly the plane (based on documentation provided by your wing, and has the proper uniform and credentials on his person (not to mention the rest of the checklist).

I'm going t bet that the civil liability imposed on an FRO for the pilots not wearing the proper uniform during a crash is pretty insignificant.

There is however a huge liability difference between the release of an aircraft based on currency data provided by CAP and the failure of an uninsured FRO to initiate a timely search.

We most likely have beat this issue within an inch of its life............

[Eclipse]

Eclipse, you got some quick answers for that one?? You sure got plenty of answers on this forum for everyone....

Yep.

If the pilots go somewhere or do something outside the authorization of that mission profile, that's on them, not the FRO.
The FRO can report the infraction to the Wing DO and let them deal with it.

The FRO's are supposed to know who's in the plane, confirm they are authorized to fly it, and why / where they are going.
They are also supposed to know when they are due back.

This "I've got a job stuff nonsense" is just that.  Nonsense.

As to the "online tests", I don't know what your referring to as holding up in court - there is a standard checklist, run through it as directed, record the responses, and get back to your real job.

In "x" hours later, if you have not heard from the pilot, either start making phone calls, etc. (I bet in 99% of the cases a 1-minute cycle of text messaging will confirm its location), or contact your Wing DO and let him know a plane is overdue but you do not have the ability to hand-hold a search.

Hardly onerous or unreasonable.

And maybe better scrutiny by the FROs will help keep our pilots to the reservation schedule and avoid the constant situations of the "next guy" sitting on the ramp with a bunch of cadets waiting for the airplane to be returned.

Can't accept / don't want the responsibility? Don't be an FRO.

"They need me..." Doesn't fly.

"No one else will do it..." Doesn't fly.

If they lose enough FRO's for this reason, they will either adjust the expectation and the regulations, or solicit new ones.  CAP lives on, and you can get back to work.

[heliodoc]

ALL you listed I am sure the current crop of FRO's are already doing

Thanks for the "expert" reply

[Short Field]

or contact your Wing DO and let him know a plane is overdue but you do not have the ability to hand-hold a search.

That totally satisfies the requirement to "start a search".   The DO might be unhappy with you because you didn't track them down to the local pilots hangout or their house, but that is the only legal requirement you have.  The PIC would probably have liked you better if you had called his cell phone or home phone before calling the DO, but that is not the FRO's problem.  The FRO is not the flight's babysitter but its alarm clock.  One hour overdue ----> call DO.  Not that hard.