Cadets at SAR Evals...

[Stonewall]

For as long as I have been in CAP and been involved in ES, which is about 22 years now, cadets have been deeply involved at SAR Evals.  I've had cadets on ground teams, air crews (19 y/o Observer), at mission base, running comms, etc; all during SAR Evals.

I get this email saying that our SAR Eval is coming up in about 20 days (nice notice, huh) and that we need a headcount of cadets who wish to participate.  But in a nutshell, this is the extent of their participation:

I'm sure you know that this is a critical wing event and cadets will be used for traffic control and general gofer type of work.

Is this standard elsewhere?

In my experience in MER, cadets have been fully integrated in all aspects of the mission.  In fact, it often appeared to be a 5 to 1 ratio of cadets to seniors at all missions, including Evaluations.

What gives?

[es_g0d]

It sounds like whomsoever wrote that bit hasn't worked with cadets enough.  Rehabilitation is in order. 

[notaNCO forever]

 In my wing if no cadets went to a SAR eval their probably wouldn't be enough people to get anything done.

[RiverAux]

In my wing is is pretty common to restrict SAREVAL participation to those who are qualified in the position they are going to be working in (no trainees), but other than that we run them pretty much like we do all the other missions. 

[Short Field]

Dumb, dumb, dumb.

The USAF evaluators like to see trainees being trained and the IC using all of a wing's assets - that includes cadets in every position they are qualified to be in. 

[RiverAux]

I didn't say that cadets weren't used.  We don't use trainee seniors or cadets if at all possible.  I've been very involved in the last 2 or 3 and never heard a complaint from the evaluators about it. 

[♠SARKID♠]

As chairman of the Council for Cadet Ability Recognition, I motion to refer this to the Committee on Raging B.S.

Do I hear a second?

[_]

Is it possible that the person wasn't clear and was trying to solicit cadets, who wouldn't be on a ground team or UDF team, to still come out to assist in other duties?

[heliodoc]

Not using trainee cadets or seniors on Evals???

How in CAP land is anyone "gonna" get trained to get up to speed with the real thing...
Who is shadowing and teaching successors, evan at REAL EVALs??

Might have to call in a wildland fire interagency management team then to find replacements......they got folks that fill an IC in pinch or whatever else

Might as well not have anybody there representing ANYTHING if you are just training at some SAREX....

Why would those folks even train then???  Something about retention would be ringing there, EH???

[RiverAux]

We're talking about the once every two year evaluations of a Wing's ES capabilities.  Excluding trainees from that single event doesn't hurt anything.  They've got plenty of SAREXs and probably several real-world missions to learn their skills.  We're not supposed to be learning skills during an evaluation but demonstrating that we can perform them competently.

I look at these evaluations the same way I look at ES task testing.  When you're evaluating someone, you're not teaching them, you're seeing if they know what they're doing.  Its not an exact match for this situation, but is close.

[es_g0d]

Please bear with me, I'm going to play devil's advocate for a minute.  (Who, me?) 

If we don't allow trainees to come to the evaluated SAREX, how can we be evaluated on how we train?

The funding for SAREXs is typically called "training" money.  If we're not upgrading anyone in a new position, are we really training?

Devil's advocate mode off.  I think its fine, but these questions need to be answerable.

[heliodoc]

Not learning skills during an evaluation???

What are ALLLLL those Homeland Security drills, nuke plant exercises, etc

Everybody on those things have to do it competently, also.

BUT they have trainees as in wildland fire getting taskbooks signed off during the REAL THING

So this CAP stuff I read about not using cadets or trainees during the REAL CAP THING, goes right against the grain of training

You learn even with competent people, even after an AAR, there is plenty of room for improvement

CAP not using cadets and trainees, during Evals, ought to be wrritten up in an AAR and rectified relecting future use of these folks, so as to be trained up....

We are all replaceable, and some of us are not going to be in CAP for 100+ years to be in an exclusive "club."'  Competency is a skilll that is learned and tested, better involve more folks who are interested rather than the clique of a few "competents"

Cadets and SM not competent???   I beg to differ!!!!!
\\\

[heliodoc]

No devils advocate here, Scott

You bring up excellent points

That Wing may want to check what that "training money" is about

DHS grants require a PET system ( planning, exercise, and training) and if 1AF money is based on training the trainees.  Then there needs to be a check on that dime and what is up!!

[sardak]

This is taken directly from the ops plan for our SAREVAL scheduled for later this year:

- The objectives of this exercise are to provide on going training for the ICP Staff, Aircrews, and Ground Teams. 
- The exercise will also test the Wing in its ability to execute the Emergency Services Mission that has been put upon the wing. 
- The Wing's Search and Rescue operations, SDIS, ARCHER, Homeland Security, and Disaster Relief will be evaluated along with the quality of training being provided.
- All CAP ES members will be current and qualified or in training as stated in MIMS. Those members with an SQTR will be under the immediate supervision, at all times, of a qualified trainer in the specific specialty.

Note that training is the first objective. Continuing...

Cadet participation is encouraged. Cadets may participate as Ground Team members if they are qualified or possess a valid SQTR. Additionally, cadets will be permitted to participate in various ICP functions such as flight line, communications, operations, administration, and computer data input. 

Heliodoc beat me to this next item, so I'll second him. Federally managed incidents such as wildland fires and disaster responses allow trainees to participate, right next to fully qualified personnel, in the thick of the incident, and get signed off on their NWCG and FEMA taskbooks (= CAP SQTRs). I know because I'm working on both kinds of taskbooks now.

Mike

[heliodoc]

Thanks, Mike

Just got off a helitack assignment after 2 days up here in the Midwest

I was a HECM and TOLC 17 years ago BEFORE the taskbook system came in to affect/ effect

Still learning to this day EVEN after 21 years turning wrenches on some of the same ships still flying around fire today.

Training ....... priceless and ONGOING  Being a "TRAINEE" again after those years off of the tactical fire environment, by being a A&P for years in between sure made me appreciate the whole taskbook system

Sometimes more detailed than a CAP SQTR and in some cases, NOT.

But there was plenty of discussion as well as evaluation...Something CAP needs to pick up on....There are NO SUPER fire fighters and there are NO super SAR folks.   Just plenty of folks needing to be mentored to be HUMBLE and COMPETENT

[ol'fido]

When you can plan your "emergency" months ahead you can pick and choose your people to put on an excellent show with all the dogs and all the ponies. Of course, don't forget the kid at the end with the shovel and the manure wagon cause he will be busy. When the balloon goes up, you want as many people trained as possible, cadet and senior, because you don't know who will show up when you can't plan months ahead. Another good example of CAP not training like they play and not playing like they train.

[MSgt Van]

Our cadets are an integral part of our Squadron, both when "SAREXing" or on an actual mission. They're not excluded from any activity. They know what's expected, and always deliver.

[Spike]

Our cadets are an integral part of our Squadron, both when "SAREXing" or on an actual mission. They're not excluded from any activity. They know what's expected, and always deliver.

Spot On!  I feel the same way.  We include Cadets in as much activity as we can.....minus Counter Drug of course!

[sarmed1]

I think I would just show up with a team or two of cadets just to see what happens....it would be fun to see how the evaluators look on tasking 2 equiped and qualified ground teams on non GT/UDF assignemnts.

mk

[MSgt Van]

{tongue firmly in cheek}
Maybe the Srs don't want the youngun's to show them up!