CAPM 39-1

[Rob Sherlin]

  There are so many posts and discussions on uniforms, the way to wear them, and when, etc., etc. And we all know 39-1 is less than clear on a lot of issues, and doesn't cover others at all. And we've all talked about how they should update it, but we shouldn't hold our breath on that.
  It got me wondering. Has anyone thought about getting a bunch of officers together and editing the manual, and adding certain things to it that should be covered, then submitting it for approval, rather than waiting for them to do it?
  If not, what about doing so?

  I think there's officers here on CAPtalk that would be more than qualified to do so since they've probably seen more problems discussed right here on CAPtalk, than in other places.

  Just a thought!

[Climbnsink]

Please no.  Main reason I'm golf shirt kinda guy is because they keep changing uniform stuff for the sport of it and I refuse to play along. 

[Major Carrales]

As I recall there was a movement a year back or so to rewrite CAPM 39-1.  No so much for changes, but for streamlining.  Pylon, I believe, was on the council.

[Rob Sherlin]

 That's what I meant. I don't want them to change...Then everyone would have to go out and buy new stuff. I can see if you've been through that a few times, you would choose to play it safe with the polo (unless the comander says to show up otherwise).
  But as the Major said....To streamline it...So, that way, everyone can refer to one source instead of trying to look for updates and refering elsewhere. It would be a major help to us new people...I had all kinds of questions after I read it because even though it stated what officers wear in a lot of cases, it was unclear on what non-officers wear (I tend to think it should be geared for non-officers more than officers since the new people need to be informed a bit more...By the time you're an officer, you pretty much have more knowledge on the matter from others).

[swamprat86]

It also would be nice to update the photos.  They are still showing blues with wing patches on them.

[Gunner C]

WIWAC the 39-1 had drawings with placements and measurements, each uniform and how it was supposed to be set up was described in minute detail.  But IIRC it was smaller than one of the chapters in the present manual.  There were about the same number of uniforms if you include blues, mess dress, 1505s, fatigues, flight bags, etc (possibly there are more now but there are articles like golf shirts that don't require much).

I think that we would be well served by a simplification.

[Rob Sherlin]

 Yes, simplification is a good thing. Maybe explain the "basic uniforms" for someone who's new and has no grade, then go into what you need and how it's worn as you advance. Most of the photos shown are all officers (or all of them), and can be somewhat confusing.
  When I brought up "epaulet sleeves" on the CSU for non officers, I had "at least" three different answers, I was told not to worry about it because I'll probably make officer grade before I know it....So, that's what I'm going with. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

The National Commander appointed 4 (I think) officers to do precisely that... update and simplify 39-1.  Unfortunately, the chairman of that committee got in some legal hot water, and the whole process was sidetracked.  I don't know where it stands right now.

[PHall]

I still say the easiest thing to do would be to make CAPM 39-1 into the CAP Supplement to AFI 36-2903. (AFI 36-2903 is the Air Force Uniform manual.)
That way CAP would only be responsible for the material dealing with the CAP Corperate Uniforms and the differences in the Air Force style uniforms.

[Hawk200]

I still say the easiest thing to do would be to make CAPM 39-1 into the CAP Supplement to AFI 36-2903. (AFI 36-2903 is the Air Force Uniform manual.)
That way CAP would only be responsible for the material dealing with the CAP Corperate Uniforms and the differences in the Air Force style uniforms.

I've thought that maybe all publications should be Air Force pubs. Just block out a set of the Air Force pub structure (such as making 99- series pubs, as an example or hypothetical concept), and make it solely CAP. Wouldn't be anymore question as to where the Air Force authority extends, and the Air Force would know exactly what's in ours.

There is precedent. Some of the earliest regulations governing CAP were Air Force Regulations.

[Strick]

I say the h@%# NHQ , why dont you guys just make something like the TPU guide.

[arajca]

I still say the easiest thing to do would be to make CAPM 39-1 into the CAP Supplement to AFI 36-2903. (AFI 36-2903 is the Air Force Uniform manual.)
That way CAP would only be responsible for the material dealing with the CAP Corperate Uniforms and the differences in the Air Force style uniforms.

I've thought that maybe all publications should be Air Force pubs. Just block out a set of the Air Force pub structure (such as making 99- series pubs, as an example or hypothetical concept), and make it solely CAP. Wouldn't be anymore question as to where the Air Force authority extends, and the Air Force would know exactly what's in ours.

There is precedent. Some of the earliest regulations governing CAP were Air Force Regulations.

True, but the relationship between CAP and the USAF was different then. Our dual status prevents that now. Since we only operate as the USAF Auxilary under certain conditions. Unless we are under those conditions there is no legal authority for the AF to control our activities. Hence the corporate side becoming a larger part of the normal operation, instead of a background piece.

[RiverAux]

Our dual status prevents that now. Since we only operate as the USAF Auxilary under certain conditions. Unless we are under those conditions there is no legal authority for the AF to control our activities.

I think this is dependent on exactly how far the AF might want to push on any particular matter. 

The governing federal law is this:

Title 10 Section 9448

§ 9448. Regulations
(a) Authority.— The Secretary of the Air Force shall prescribe regulations for the administration of this chapter.
(b) Required Regulations.— The regulations shall include the following:
(1) Regulations governing the conduct of the activities of the Civil Air Patrol when it is performing its duties as a volunteer civilian auxiliary of the Air Force under section 9442 of this title.
(2) Regulations for providing support by the Air Force and for arranging assistance by other agencies under section 9444 of this title.
(3) Regulations governing the qualifications of retired Air Force personnel to serve as an administrator or liaison officer for the Civil Air Patrol under a personal services contract entered into under section 9446 (a) of this title.
(c) Approval by Secretary of Defense.— The regulations required by subsection (b)(2) shall be subject to the approval of the Secretary of Defense.

The AF could exert a LOT of control over quite a few CAP regulations using this authority.  Using b1 and b2 above the AF could say:
1.  You will only wear uniforms with these insignia, etc. when conducting AF missions.  (effective control over 39-1).  So, they could say, "Only AF-style uniforms may be worn on AFAMs and to wear the AF-style uniform you must meet these height and weight requirements" or they could say "No golf shirt uniforms on AFAMs". 
2a.  Only those members meeting these requirements will be allowed to participate in AF assigned emergency services missions (effective control over 60-3)
2b.  They could combine their direct authority noted in 1 and 2a and expand it into the senior member training program.  For example, "Only senior members who have completed the following CAP PD courses and have the following experiences are allowed to wear Capt. rank on their uniform while conducting AFAMs. 
2b.
3. Only pilots meeting these requirements will fly on AFAMs (effective control over 60-1).

Three of those four items are unquestionably within the AF's ability to control and if they exerted that authority it would bring CAP very much into their sphere of authority. 

Now lets say they chose to use that authority, it would still leave CAP the option of having a completely different set of uniforms and mission procedures for non-AFAMs, but I don't see that as likely. 

Hey, if the AF wanted to they could extend AFAM status to ALL CAP activities which could give them final say-so over ALL CAP regulations.   They're already paying for the liability insurance to cover CAP's corporate missions so it would probably cost them the same and give them more control. 

[Rob Sherlin]

 You never know....It might happen. It was all ready mentioned there was something put together on fixing 39-1, and what happened ? You know how bad that makes CAP look to the AF ?

[JayT]

I still say the easiest thing to do would be to make CAPM 39-1 into the CAP Supplement to AFI 36-2903. (AFI 36-2903 is the Air Force Uniform manual.)
That way CAP would only be responsible for the material dealing with the CAP Corperate Uniforms and the differences in the Air Force style uniforms.

Yeah, but then what are you doing? You're giving CAP members Air Force uniform manuals with an extra CAP booklet.

What exactly does that change?

[PHall]

I still say the easiest thing to do would be to make CAPM 39-1 into the CAP Supplement to AFI 36-2903. (AFI 36-2903 is the Air Force Uniform manual.)
That way CAP would only be responsible for the material dealing with the CAP Corperate Uniforms and the differences in the Air Force style uniforms.

Yeah, but then what are you doing? You're giving CAP members Air Force uniform manuals with an extra CAP booklet.

What exactly does that change?

Reducing the amount of material that CAP is responsible for maintaining.

Maybe then they could almost keep it current.

[JayT]

I still say the easiest thing to do would be to make CAPM 39-1 into the CAP Supplement to AFI 36-2903. (AFI 36-2903 is the Air Force Uniform manual.)
That way CAP would only be responsible for the material dealing with the CAP Corperate Uniforms and the differences in the Air Force style uniforms.

Yeah, but then what are you doing? You're giving CAP members Air Force uniform manuals with an extra CAP booklet.

What exactly does that change?

Reducing the amount of material that CAP is responsible for maintaining.

Maybe then they could almost keep it current.

How?

[JoeTomasone]

The vast majority of CAP members don't even read 39-1; I shudder to think of what excuses you'd get if they had TWO manuals to read.

[davedove]

I think the biggest problem right now with the 39-1, especially for new members, is the whole batch of ICL's we have for the manual.

Right now, if a person wants information on a uniform he looks it up in the 39-1.  But wait, that item has been changed by ICL X, which was updated by ICL Y, which was modified by ICL Z, etc.

Even without changing any of the uniforms, there is a whole lot that could be done to just get it all put together in one place.

[MIKE]

Which technically are all expired and invalid.