Cadets and a 2b?

[Stonewall]

The reason why "they" want to know these things is so they can ask you about them.  If you lie about it, you are not someone they would be interested in.  "They" know you are human, and as a teenager, probably made some mistakes; bad decisions and may even have some sort of record.

I have been in the "hot seat" for polygraphs, counter intelligence and lifestyles.  At age 23, I was asked to submit background information up to 10 years (when I was 13).  Sure, they may have checked out my middle and high school records, looked at a speeding ticket when I was 16 or heard about the time I burned down the woods (a lot of woods) when I was 14.  But these are things that teenagers do and they know this.  I got suspended from school.  Had in school suspension; failed a couple classes and took summer school.  Had the police come to my house more than once.

I can speak volumes about people I know personally, close friends, all of whom did everything from "experiement" with drugs (not just pot) in college as an adult, got DUIs, fired from jobs among other things. 

Being 14, 15 or even 17 and being kicked out of CAP does not mean a whole lot unless a) it was for doing something illegal as seen through the eye of the law anyway, or b) down the road, when asked during an interview for something like a clearance, you lie.

Lying is what gets you.  That and bad credit.  Being a kid and doing stupid things.  Well, that's what kids are supposed to do.  Doesn't mean that it's cool to get 2B'd, but it certainly doesn't mean you aren't allowed to join the military or that you won't get a security clearance down the road.

[NCRblues]

ok, here goes! I love cap, was a cadet for 6 years went active duty air force and sm. Now stonewall, i have nothing but respect for you but here you are wrong. This ^ is what gives civil air patrol and cap officers a very bad name among active duty. Now stonewall, i know you may of had a security clearance at one point in time, and may still have it, but i know my job, and my job is prp vetting. Under "pdi" their is a question that all people applying for dod advanced clearance have to answer, "have you ever had a membership in BSA, C.A.P, USGCA, JROTC, or any other youth or cadet programs terminated under adverse conditions? Answering yes to this will disqualify you from advanced dod clearance. I deal with this everyday at my job, and have several people lose, or not get prp or Yankee white because of this answer. Clearances change (ie after the minot incident) so you sir are wrong.

[PHall]

ok, here goes! I love cap, was a cadet for 6 years went active duty air force and sm. Now stonewall, i have nothing but respect for you but here you are wrong. This ^ is what gives civil air patrol and cap officers a very bad name among active duty. Now stonewall, i know you may of had a security clearance at one point in time, and may still have it, but i know my job, and my job is prp vetting. Under "pdi" their is a question that all people applying for dod advanced clearance have to answer, "have you ever had a membership in BSA, C.A.P, USGCA, JROTC, or any other youth or cadet programs terminated under adverse conditions? Answering yes to this will disqualify you from advanced dod clearance. I deal with this everyday at my job, and have several people lose, or not get prp or Yankee white because of this answer. Clearances change (ie after the minot incident) so you sir are wrong.

I love it, we have one Security Forces guy calling out another Security Forces guy.

Smooth move there whitemandefender. You do know the SF community is pretty tight knit and this is probably not the way to make a rep.

[Flying Pig]

No.

Nowhere in military enlistment does the question ever come up.  At least not in the 2 times I have enlisted. It is an internal CAP action.  Its no different than being kicked out of Cub Scouts. 
The only way would be if a criminal charge, or enlistment/military disqualifying action was the cause.  In that case, it would be the incident, not the 2B that keeps the cadet out.

When I was in the Marines, I worked with an outstanding Marine who had been 2B'd from CAP as a cadet.  Had to do with a Cadet Conference, a female cadet, after hours,a little wining and dining, getting caught and jumping out of a barracks window....Need I say more?

I just wanted to post it again.  I was excited about my scolding.

[NCRblues]

phall, when did i say i was SF? Im not SF, the name whitemandefender, is the call sign of our wing command post...  :clap:

[jb512]

I just wanted to post it again.  I was excited about my scolding.

What were you thinking?   

[D2SK]

ok, here goes! I love cap, was a cadet for 6 years went active duty air force and sm. Now stonewall, i have nothing but respect for you but here you are wrong. This ^ is what gives civil air patrol and cap officers a very bad name among active duty. Now stonewall, i know you may of had a security clearance at one point in time, and may still have it, but i know my job, and my job is prp vetting. Under "pdi" their is a question that all people applying for dod advanced clearance have to answer, "have you ever had a membership in BSA, C.A.P, USGCA, JROTC, or any other youth or cadet programs terminated under adverse conditions? Answering yes to this will disqualify you from advanced dod clearance. I deal with this everyday at my job, and have several people lose, or not get prp or Yankee white because of this answer. Clearances change (ie after the minot incident) so you sir are wrong.

Not all 2bs are for membership terminations under "adverse conditions".

[PHall]

phall, when did i say i was SF? Im not SF, the name whitemandefender, is the call sign of our wing command post...  :clap:

You said you adjudicate security clearances. That's a cop job.   EEFI there slick.

And whitemandefender is too long to be a command post call sign.

[NIN]

No.

Nowhere in military enlistment does the question ever come up.  At least not in the 2 times I have enlisted. It is an internal CAP action.  Its no different than being kicked out of Cub Scouts. 
The only way would be if a criminal charge, or enlistment/military disqualifying action was the cause.  In that case, it would be the incident, not the 2B that keeps the cadet out.

When I was in the Marines, I worked with an outstanding Marine who had been 2B'd from CAP as a cadet.  Had to do with a Cadet Conference, a female cadet, after hours,a little wining and dining, getting caught and jumping out of a barracks window....Need I say more?

I just wanted to post it again.  I was excited about my scolding.

And I feel the need to reiterate that I was never in the Marines and that I never got caught.

BTW, NCRBlues, just an FYI: Stonewall has been around this block a bunch.  I know that one for a fact.  Saying "Hey, you know things have changed a little bit recently" or "As of 1 October 07, screening is slightly different.."  is one thing.  Calling a guy "wrong" and then going on to intimate that he's an example of why active duty folks have a bad opinion of CAP is, well, I'll just say that's a mighty broad brush you're painting with there..

[jb512]

And I'm still unclear why Stonewall's post is what gives CAP members a bad name with the RM.  That's for many other reasons...   

[Short Field]

You said you adjudicate security clearances. That's a cop job.   EEFI there slick.

Actually he said "prp".  World of difference between PRP and something like a SBI.  I had the PRP bit while a member of a SAC Combat Crew and that was the only time was I monitored for PRP.  Everyone was monitored for PRP - only a few had a SBI.   

My whole commissioned career (not to be confused with my misspent youth wearing stripes) was spend in assignments requiring the clearances you only get with a SBI.  I spend time as a SSO.  Unless you hit the big time (and misdeeds as a cadet didn't automatically make it the big time) with serious crimes, most things in a person's youth, if self-identified, were forgiveable.  Remember, we were trying to identify spies and people vulnerable to pressure by spies - not overly active teens.   Behavior that could leave you vulnerable to blackmail or bribes was absolutely verboten.  Bad credit and big debt leaves you open to selling out the US.

[Short Field]

Just guessing -  he sounds like a ACC Security Policeman, 509th Bomb Wing, Whiteman AFB, MO.  Whiteman is home to the B2 Bomber.   ACC is trying to reinvent the procedures to protect the nukes as well as SAC did. 

[PHall]

You said you adjudicate security clearances. That's a cop job.   EEFI there slick.

Actually he said "prp".  World of difference between PRP and something like a SBI.  I had the PRP bit while a member of a SAC Combat Crew and that was the only time was I monitored for PRP.  Everyone was monitored for PRP - only a few had a SBI.   

I spent 6 years flying as a Boom Operator on the Looking Glass, believe me, I know more then I want to about clearances and PRP and such.

And thank you Walker Family for really screwing up the works for the rest of us.

And ShortField, you were monitored after you finished your PRP assignment too.
Your medical records had a big "Formerly Certified Under PRP" stamp on the cover.

[Gunner C]

You said you adjudicate security clearances. That's a cop job.   EEFI there slick.

Actually he said "prp".  World of difference between PRP and something like a SBI.  I had the PRP bit while a member of a SAC Combat Crew and that was the only time was I monitored for PRP.  Everyone was monitored for PRP - only a few had a SBI.   

I spent 6 years flying as a Boom Operator on the Looking Glass, believe me, I know more then I want to about clearances and PRP and such.

And thank you Walker Family for really screwing up the works for the rest of us.

And ShortField, you were monitored after you finished your PRP assignment too.
Your medical records had a big "Formerly Certified Under PRP" stamp on the cover.

In Army SF (not your silly security forces  ) once we were out of the PRP, they just took us out of the "red file", took the red jacket off our records, and that was that.  Thank goodness - I got tired of waiting for a PRP qualified doctors to show up for sick call - getting a "cold pack" became an all morning affair.

What was said above was true - getting a DUI doesn't mean that you lose your clearance (though you might lose your job).  Yes, SCI is a bit of a different animal, but if you come clean on past stupidity, you probably won't have any problems.  BTW, it wasn't only the Walker Bros. that screwed things up, don't forget Mr. Robert Hansen, formerly of Fred, Barny, and Irving (FBI).

[tribalelder]

When I was IG, I was consulted on one matter involving a  cadet,  a HS senior, who had been involved in a misdemeanor episode.  He had USMC plans for after graduation.  Rather than put his plans at risk, I told the CC offer the cadet and his parents to keep the suspension in place two months for the cadet's membership to expire.

When I had to 2b a squadron CC.  Since his renegade squadron wanted to follow him (a dreadful situation I had inherited !), I wrote each unit member, advising them that I was prepared to terminate each one of them for one  nonattendance or I could treat their departure from CAP as a resignation, also on a 2b.  They ALL took resignation.

My observation on most terminations -- senior or cadet -- the subject almost ALWAYS loves the uniform and its bling more than he loves CAP. 

[Stonewall]

ok, here goes! I love cap, was a cadet for 6 years went active duty air force and sm. Now stonewall, i have nothing but respect for you but here you are wrong. This ^ is what gives civil air patrol and cap officers a very bad name among active duty. Now stonewall, i know you may of had a security clearance at one point in time, and may still have it, but i know my job, and my job is prp vetting. Under "pdi" their is a question that all people applying for dod advanced clearance have to answer, "have you ever had a membership in BSA, C.A.P, USGCA, JROTC, or any other youth or cadet programs terminated under adverse conditions? Answering yes to this will disqualify you from advanced dod clearance. I deal with this everyday at my job, and have several people lose, or not get prp or Yankee white because of this answer. Clearances change (ie after the minot incident) so you sir are wrong.

Fine, well and good.  You are very excited I can tell.  I didn't work for DOD at the time, so I imagine my information may have been correct; at least at the time.  I have filled out SF86s (or whatever they're called) for the military as well, but never saw a question about my membership in CAP.  Last one I filled out was when I joined the Air Guard, I think it was 2004.

My point is that, in my opinion, a 2B could be something extremely minor, it just depends on all the circumstances.  I've heard of people 2B'd for some reasons that I didn't think were justified.  No biggie, like I said.  And I compared that to something like a DUI.  In my opinion, I think a DUI (where someone could end up injured or worse) is far worse than a 14 or 15 year old getting kicked out of CAP for something similar to getting suspended from school.  But you can easily get the highest of clearances and still have a DUI under your belt.  So you are telling me that EVERY SINGLE 2B situation would render someone unable to be granted a clearance?  In every situation?  It's that simple, "you have a 2B from CAP, you cannot get a clearance?"

I would not say that every single 2B would disqualify you from a clearance.  I think the military would be foolish to deny someone based solely on being 2B'd from a volunteer group, especially if it was 10+ years prior.

[Stonewall]

And I'm still unclear why Stonewall's post is what gives CAP members a bad name with the RM.  That's for many other reasons...   

Yes, I am curious too.  Especially since I was a cadet.  Then a senior member WHILE on active duty, then in the Guard.

I don't get offended, but out of everything that has been said to me in my CAP career, I'd say that is about the most insulting thing ever said to me directly, "I give CAP members a bad name with the real military".

Thanks.  That about sums up my CAP and military service in a nutshell.

[Major Lord]

I had a cadet try to run one of his flight off the road in his car....Twice. Both times on the way home from meetings and in uniform ( Please kids, if you attempt homicide, wear a Sea Cadet Uniform instead!) Okay, one ADW might just be horse play ( and who among us has not threatened the life of our pals with weapons or heavy metal?) but after the second time, the Cadet self term'd rather than face a 2B.

Having gone through the 2B process with a Senior, I can tell you that it is, or can be, a nightmare, and that your actions will be much of the subect of the investigation, rather than the bad-actor. Don't count on CAP for much support if you have to 2B someone. The rule of organizational dynamics is that if you are the only one complaining, you are the problem. If at all possible, find a better way. Of course, I am speaking only of 2B's for cause, not the rarely used administrative 2B. Our attempt to 2B a senior member, in which we eventually prevailed, required a number of members in the Squadron to bring in private attorneys. There is enough stuff to buy in CAP without having to pay attorneys to file restraining orders.

Major Lord

[Major Carrales]

No.

Nowhere in military enlistment does the question ever come up.  At least not in the 2 times I have enlisted. It is an internal CAP action.  Its no different than being kicked out of Cub Scouts. 
The only way would be if a criminal charge, or enlistment/military disqualifying action was the cause.  In that case, it would be the incident, not the 2B that keeps the cadet out.

When I was in the Marines, I worked with an outstanding Marine who had been 2B'd from CAP as a cadet.  Had to do with a Cadet Conference, a female cadet, after hours,a little wining and dining, getting caught and jumping out of a barracks window....Need I say more?

I just wanted to post it again.  I was excited about my scolding.

The scolding wasn't necessarily for you, but rather the fellows that made light of the incident you mentioned.  When things like the sort you mention above happen, and I can safely say that everyone here has been or will be touched by an issue of that matter, the tenor of the discussion needs to be serious.

Making ridiculous comments that amount to "teach them not to get caught" can come back on you during a future situation and muddle up the efforts of people trying to conduct a fair investagation of matters.

[jb512]

No.

Nowhere in military enlistment does the question ever come up.  At least not in the 2 times I have enlisted. It is an internal CAP action.  Its no different than being kicked out of Cub Scouts. 
The only way would be if a criminal charge, or enlistment/military disqualifying action was the cause.  In that case, it would be the incident, not the 2B that keeps the cadet out.

When I was in the Marines, I worked with an outstanding Marine who had been 2B'd from CAP as a cadet.  Had to do with a Cadet Conference, a female cadet, after hours,a little wining and dining, getting caught and jumping out of a barracks window....Need I say more?

I just wanted to post it again.  I was excited about my scolding.

The scolding wasn't necessarily for you, but rather the fellows that made light of the incident you mentioned.  When things like the sort you mention above happen, and I can safely say that everyone here has been or will be touched by an issue of that matter, the tenor of the discussion needs to be serious.

Making ridiculous comments that amount to "teach them not to get caught" can come back on you during a future situation and muddle up the efforts of people trying to conduct a fair investagation of matters.

I think this incident is long past investigating so there's no use pretending like it didn't happen, or other things that are similar.  Humor is a way that a lot of us use and some people have different limits of what they can make light of after the fact.  I'll be the first among many here who can tell you that military members, cops, firefighters, EMTs, etc., have pretty tough skin and we can find humor in almost anything.

Sure that sucks for some people, but that's how it gets discussed sometimes.  Would we prevent it if we could, or deal with it if we were the ones who discovered it?  Sure, and humor would not be appropriate at that time.  Later on, ehh, we're human and sh... stuff happens.