Satisfactory Cadet Progression

[shorning]

Simply amazing.  "May" and "will" are very different.

I wonder how many commanders have the sack to hold seniors to similar promotion standards.  If we're telling cadets that they "owe" it to the program, I should think the same would apply to seniors.  Lets say double the TIG requirement?  Is that sufficient?    When do we start terminating the 30+ year 2nd Lts? 

[Nathan]

Okay, I'm going to throw an opinion in here... again.

Nick, no one is denying that you've done a lot in CAP. I applaud how much you've done, and I look forward to a possibility of meeting you at GSAR this year. You have done a lot in CAP.

However, the cadet oath is just that: the CADET oath. It's designed for the CADET program. We as cadets take the cadet oath, which applies to the cadet program, while seniors sign whatever they sign.

When that oath was being written, it was written only to be taken by people participating in one single aspect of the three missions: The cadet program. When you became a cadet, you promised to advance your training and progress. Now, you wouldn't have had to say that oath at all if you weren't participating in the cadet program, which leaves us with an easy conclusion. That oath applies to the cadet program, being that it's the cadet oath, and the ES and Aerospace missions are other completely different missions that (to my knowledge) there is no oath requirement, or at least not one you have your name signed under, like the cadet oath.

Now, following this logic, you have signed an oath that promises you will progress through the cadet program. You have clearly not done that. Your mission, as a cadet, is to progress through the cadet program, and the ES and AE missions come second to that. You didn't sign a contract with those missions. You signed a contract with the cadet program.

No one is saying you should completely leave the ES program, either. However, priorities within CAP should be placed on you working through the cadet program (the one you took the oath for), not working your way through the ES program. Being a C/Maj for two years is far too long, and that would constitute a progressive failing of that mission.

If you wanted to go full on ES, then quit the cadet program. There's no reason for you to be in it anyway if you're simply going to be working on ES all the time. But while you are a cadet, you have taken an oath to progress through that program, so while you're wearing the cadet insignia, you have an obligation through contract to fulfill THAT mission, not any side missions that you WANTED to perform.

JMHO

[Horn229]

Please, save the indignant attitude. We all have life issues, and none of the challenges with your father were brought up until this minute.

Right, because I shouldn't have had to. You're previous posts were implying that I should have had getting 3 diamonds my end goal. I disagreed, then you say that what I've done for the last two years was "easy". You need to understand that there are personal situations that arise in everyones lives, and what is the end goal of a cadet career for me may not be what it was for you.

Unless he was ill for an extended period, it doesn't speak to the issues of your 2 years as a 2nd Lt, which is likely where your problems started.

The two years as a C/2d Lt, I spent learning how to a true leader, and a mentor. I was the Admin officer for my squadron, and revamped the entire files, then went to wing and started in on the same thing, and getting regs up to date. I advanced my ES training, and I taught new cadets GT. Just because I didn't get another pip on my collar doesn't mean I wasn't learning.

I spent a good portion of my time as an NCO favoring the Authoritarian style, then once I became an Officer, I had to relearn what leadership really was.

You also can't make the argument that the exception makes the rule, which should be a ribbon
in CAP, because many members, senior and cadet, think policy should be based on exceptions.

Commander's discretion is designed for your situation, but the proper atmosphere of positive pressure from the start would have not left you in the position you were in when time started getting tight for you. More push as a 2nd Lt might have you at Spaatz now.

More push as a C/2d Lt, and I would have been a very immature C/Capt, and an unfit C/Col. I've spent a good amount of time sitting and learning, and when I've felt that I was ready to move on, I have. It's not just about the numbers, it's about learning and developing people into leaders.

Which is another of the reasons the CP pushes progression.  NHQ realizes that the older you get, the more divided your time becomes, making it even harder to stay engaged.

Beyond that you are making my argument for me.  When your unit CC approved your participation in JFE and GSAR, he should have been looking at your current state in the program and discussed if these "extracurricular" activities were where you should be spending your time.  That's one of the reasons we are supposed to sign off on these - to be part of the process in deciding whether a respective activity is a good fit. (Though many CC's never even look at the forms, which defeats the purpose).

So what you're saying is because I've taken my time in getting promoted, that I'm an unfit candidate to attend activities?

I can't tell you how any conversations I have had with Unit CC's who have sent cadets, who for one reason or another should have never gotten their blessing to attend ILWG Spring.  When I
bring it to their attention that the Unit CC is there to guide the career of a cadet, many are shocked at the concept.

But that is our job, to make sure you can engage in the program at a level that fits both the requirements, your abilities, and your current state of life.  And when that fit becomes out of balance it is time for a change. Whether that means a hiatus, adjustment of activities, a transfer or a 2b depends on the situation.

So again, are you trying to imply that because I've chosen to not be aggressive in getting promoted, that I'm not fitting in with the cadet program?

As for the 2b stuff. If you really think that I'm going to be 2b'd for not promoting, think again. This organization is still losing members. There is a serious retention issue in CAP, and I doubt they're going to get it fixed it by kicking out the people who have actually stuck around, simply because they haven't gotten a certain number of promotions.

[Eclipse]

Simply amazing.  "May" and "will" are very different.

I wonder how many commanders have the sack to hold seniors to similar promotion standards.  If we're telling cadets that they "owe" it to the program, I should think the same would apply to seniors.  Lets say double the TIG requirement?  Is that sufficient?    When do we start terminating the 30+ year 2nd Lts? 

When that verbiage is written into the Senior Program regs, until then it’s a good idea which is not related to this conversation.

[Horn229]

Okay, I'm going to throw an opinion in here... again.

Nick, no one is denying that you've done a lot in CAP. I applaud how much you've done, and I look forward to a possibility of meeting you at GSAR this year. You have done a lot in CAP.

However, the cadet oath is just that: the CADET oath. It's designed for the CADET program. We as cadets take the cadet oath, which applies to the cadet program, while seniors sign whatever they sign.

When that oath was being written, it was written only to be taken by people participating in one single aspect of the three missions: The cadet program. When you became a cadet, you promised to advance your training and progress. Now, you wouldn't have had to say that oath at all if you weren't participating in the cadet program, which leaves us with an easy conclusion. That oath applies to the cadet program, being that it's the cadet oath, and the ES and Aerospace missions are other completely different missions that (to my knowledge) there is no oath requirement, or at least not one you have your name signed under, like the cadet oath.

Now, following this logic, you have signed an oath that promises you will progress through the cadet program. You have clearly not done that. Your mission, as a cadet, is to progress through the cadet program, and the ES and AE missions come second to that. You didn't sign a contract with those missions. You signed a contract with the cadet program.

No one is saying you should completely leave the ES program, either. However, priorities within CAP should be placed on you working through the cadet program (the one you took the oath for), not working your way through the ES program. Being a C/Maj for two years is far too long, and that would constitute a progressive failing of that mission.

If you wanted to go full on ES, then quit the cadet program. There's no reason for you to be in it anyway if you're simply going to be working on ES all the time. But while you are a cadet, you have taken an oath to progress through that program, so while you're wearing the cadet insignia, you have an obligation through contract to fulfill THAT mission, not any side missions that you WANTED to perform.

JMHO

Wrong. I did not sign an oath that said I would Progress through the ranks. I signed an oath that says "I will advance my education and training rapidly to prepare myself to be of service to my community, state and nation". Nowhere is there is there any hint at promoting. I have been following that oath, and I intend to keep following it. But there is a big difference from advancing my education and training, and speeding through the ranks.

Oh and ya, I look forward to meeting you as well. We should be having some fun filled debates this year. 

[shorning]

When that verbiage is written into the Senior Program regs, until then it's a good idea which is not related to this conversation.

Sure it does.  It fits the entire concept of what your arguing.

[Nathan]

Oh and ya, I look forward to meeting you as well. We should be having some fun filled debates this year.  

Which is why I'm working very hard not to come off as an ass here. I just disagree with you, so let's keep it at that, huh?

Wrong. I did not sign an oath that said I would Progress through the ranks. I signed an oath that says "I will advance my education and training rapidly to prepare myself to be of service to my community, state and nation". Nowhere is there is there any hint at promoting. I have been following that oath, and I intend to keep following it. But there is a big difference from advancing my education and training, and speeding through the ranks.

First off, if you had to say that oath for any other branch besides the cadet program, then I would be agreeing with you 100%. But because only the cadet program requires that oath, then it would be implied that the education and training would apply to the cadet program, NOT the ES program. The ES program is a completely different mission which requires no such oath. You can't take something that is exclusive to one program and apply it to everything else. Technically, I would be able to take that oath (under your logic) and say that it applies to going on a mission trip, or going into the military. While it makes a convenient argument, neither a mission trip nor the military have anything to do with the cadet program, and no such oath is required outside of the cadet program.

Because it is the cadet oath, then you are stating your mission as a cadet; not as a GTM, not as a missionary, and not as a soldier. Because you are stating your mission as a cadet, then it would make sense for what is going on in the oath to apply to the program itself. I mean, everything else in the entire oath applies solely to the cadet program; why are you trying to apply the very last sentence to justify your position?

I completely don't want nor endorse ANYONE speeding through the ranks. I've seen the effects of that first-hand. But I don't think that anyone should simply *stop*. That is detrimental, and why we ARE allowed to 2b for stagnation.

[Eclipse]

The two years as a C/2d Lt, I spent learning how to a true leader, and a mentor. I was the Admin officer for my squadron, and revamped the entire files, then went to wing and started in on the same thing, and getting regs up to date. I advanced my ES training, and I taught new cadets GT. Just because I didn't get another pip on my collar doesn't mean I wasn't learning.

Exactly my point, your Unit CC and Wing CC allowed their needs to come before yours.
Whether you enjoyed the work, it was meaningful, and even necessary, is besides the point.  If we give them the choice, cadets would rather do a lot of things other than study and progress.  Same with regular school.  I doubt your teachers would have allowed you to take a job as an admin assistant in school and stay in 6th grade for two years.  The program is the program.

And Nathan makes a good point.  Why don't you just convert to senior and contribute any way you want?  Probably a big reason is that you couldn't attend some of the cadet activities on the same level - I hear that a lot.  So you stay as a cadet, and attend GSAR, or whatever, in that capacity.  Less responsibility, more time for fun. 

Forgetting that, just as the senior program has Loco Parentis and other nightmare responsibilities, the CP has the Oath of progression. 

Which brings me back to my original premise. You, like a lot a cadets, work towards Captain, get the click to Major, then spend the rest of the time doing cool stuff and
waiting to clock out.  Your singular excuse right now is that you can't figure out how to order AFIDL 13.  I would present that in the time you spent making excuses in this thread, you could have made a phone call to NHQ, or your TCO and had the test on the way.

[Eclipse]

When that verbiage is written into the Senior Program regs, until then it’s a good idea which is not related to this conversation.

Sure it does.  It fits the entire concept of what your arguing.

No, it doesn't.  We are discussing an EXISTING regulation, and whether it should be enforced.  You are trying to muddy it with a side discussion as to whether the same standards should apply to the Senior program.  I think they should, but if you want to discuss that, start a new thread.

There is also the point that the goals and mission of the cadet program is different from the senior program, which means the arguments are different.

[Horn229]

The two years as a C/2d Lt, I spent learning how to a true leader, and a mentor. I was the Admin officer for my squadron, and revamped the entire files, then went to wing and started in on the same thing, and getting regs up to date. I advanced my ES training, and I taught new cadets GT. Just because I didn't get another pip on my collar doesn't mean I wasn't learning.

Exactly my point, your Unit CC and Wing CC allowed their needs to come before yours.
Whether you enjoyed the work, it was meaningful, and even necessary, is besides the point.  If we give them the choice, cadets would rather do a lot of things other than study and progress.  Same with regular school.  I doubt your teachers would have allowed you to take a job as an admin assistant in school and stay in 6th grade for two years.  The program is the program.

Dude, it was good experience for me. I learned a lot when I did the job. Ain't that the point of the cadet program, to learn?

And Nathan makes a good point.  Why don't you just convert to senior and contribute any way you want?  Probably a big reason is that you couldn't attend some of the cadet activities on the same level - I hear that a lot.  So you stay as a cadet, and attend GSAR, or whatever in that capacity.  Less responsibility, more time for fun.

Because I enjoy being a cadet. I'm the cadet mentor in my squadron, I'm the wing CAC chair, and I'm on encampment staff doing SET. Just because I haven't promoted and really enjoy ES doesn't mean I'm not an active participant in the CP.

Forgetting that, just as the senior program has Loco Parentis and other nightmare responsibilities, the CP has the Oath of progression.

Ok, since you keep bringing this oath of progression up, would you please show me where is says that?

Which brings me back to my original premise. You, like a lot a cadets, work towards Captain, get the click to Major, then spend the rest of the time doing cool stuff and
waiting to clock out.  Your singular excuse right now is that you can't figure out how to order AFIDL 13.  I would present that in the time you spent making excuses in this thread, you could have made a phone cal to NHQ, or your TCO and had the test on the way.

Actually, I just got a PM on here last night with instructions on how to order the test. I'll most likely get that ordered before the end of the week.

But ya, here's one more reason for my not switching over right now. The respect issue. I get a lot of respect as a Cadet, I've seen senior member but more faith into senior cadets, than they do the Flight Officers. Flight Officers are treated like cadets by the senior members, and the cadets still act all buddy buddy. It's a lose-lose situation for a cadet to switch over. The only time I've seen FO's get any respect is when they enlisted, and are in the military.

Even this past saturday at our GTE, the CMSgt that was evaluating me (the GBD) pointed out that a lot of the senior members seem to have a lot of respect for and trust me. Why throw that, and the fun I have as a Cadet away? So I can have the title of senior member? No thanks, they'll have to drag me over to the dark side kicking and screaming the whole way down.

[Eclipse]

I'm the cadet mentor in my squadron, I'm the wing CAC chair,

BAMM!  Making my point for me again.  Whether you like it or not, you are setting the bar as "Major is good enough..."

[shorning]

You are trying to muddy it with a side discussion as to whether the same standards should apply to the Senior program. 

Nope, just trying to point out that you're out in left field...again.

[Horn229]

I'm the cadet mentor in my squadron, I'm the wing CAC chair,

BAMM!  Making my point for me again.  Whether you like it or not, you are setting the bar as "Major is good enough..."

Eh, not really. We are a small wing. About 55-60 active cadet total. Out of these 60 active cadets, there are 2 active spaatz cadets, and 2 more C/Lt Col's.  I'm not the end all, be all of role modelism. I've chosen to do a lot of things in CAP, other haven't done as much as I, therefore having more time to promote. So, you're still not winning me over. Oh, and you still haven't shown wear it says I signed an oath to progress.

[Nathan]

The cadet oath is present when you first sign up on the form. You sign right under it.

You might have missed my other post... scroll up, I've readdressed what I said earlier.

[shorning]

The cadet oath is present when you first sign up on the form. You sign right under it.

Yep right here:

I hereby make application for cadet membership in Civil Air Patrol. I pledge that I will serve faithfully in the Civil Air Patrol Cadet Program and that I will attend meetings regularly, participate actively in unit activities, obey my officers, wear my uniform properly, and advance my education and training rapidly[/i] to prepare myself to be of service to my community, state, and nation.

Emphasis mine.

"Education and training".  Doesn't say anything about promotions.  There are broad possibilities as to how one can advance their education and training without necessarily promoting.  even though he makes it sound like he'd automatically 2b ca cadet for not promoting, even Bob has said it would depend on the situation.

[Nathan]

You're right. It does not specifically mention the word "promotion." :clap:

However, you did point out that it mentions, "Education and training." Which is all I really need.

Come now, how do you think cadets train and educate? Let's take SDA's, for example. Sure, if I wanted to, I could do SDA's as a C/MSgt if I wanted to. But few C/MSgts are willing to do them voluntarily (few C/Officers are willing to do them involuntarily...), and few SM's would be willing to grade them if they don't mean anything.

Point is, being that we hate the process of an SDA aside, few people deny that they are not educational and that we don't learn from them if we put something of an effort into it. But you can only do those as an officer.

The big picture is that the ranks are not there just for fun. They're there to set a level of education and training that we had not previously been proven ready for. A C/Amn will never be put in as the C/CC of NBB, and a C/Capt has a slim chance of making C/XO of COS. They simply haven't experienced as much of the training as CAP wants us to.

By stagnating at a single rank, a cadet is depriving him or herself of the ability to ADVANCE the education and training to a new level; they are simply staying at the same level for a long time, and never advance any higher than that. Sure, there is a LOT you can do as a C/Maj. I can name off many things. You can be C/CC of the squadron, you can be on almost any chair in the CAC, you can be the C/CC of most of the NCSA's, etc. However, should a cadet wait around at a certain rank until he or she has held every single position at an encampment, gone to every single NCSA possible, etc? That's crazy talk.

Then should the ES program have any effect on a cadet's progression? No. The ES program has nothing to do with the cadet program. While it is a noble mission, it does not fall under the "education and training" referred to in the cadet oath (due to it being the cadet oath of the cadet program). Therefore, while it was a good mission, it should not be overcome by the priority of the cadet to the cadet mission.

As I stated earlier, if interest in completing the cadet program's mission has waned, then drop the cadet status so you can truly work 100% on SAR.

[Horn229]

As I stated earlier, if interest in completing the cadet program's mission has waned, then drop the cadet status so you can truly work 100% on SAR.

You're welcome to that opinion. But as I already stated in one of my other posts, I am active in the cadet program. I'm active in my squadron, CAC, wing activities, encampments and NCSA's. Just because I don't have the goal to get the spaatz and let everything else fall by the wayside doesn't mean I don't put a lot into/get a lot out of the cadet program.

You know, I think the two of you are being pretty rediculous by this "finish it or get out" mentality. It's actually rather stupid.

[Nathan]

Eh, it's really not a big deal to me one way or the other. I just felt a need to try to flesh out my ideas, since we have a couple of C/2d Lt's who have been so for about three years now. No personal offense intented.

[Hammer]

My goal is to get my Eaker.  A year or so after that, I'll probably become a FO.  Will I run into problems with doing this?

[MIKE]

My goal is to get my Eaker.  A year or so after that, I'll probably become a FO.  Will I run into problems with doing this?

Eaker makes you eligible for TFO if you go SM between 18-21.  Possible hang up would be if you aren't in a leadership or supervisory position with a unit.

33. a. 3) Leadership qualities. Individuals recommended for promotion to flight officer grade must be occupying positions of supervision or leadership within the unit.