"eyes"-"click sir!"

Started by michigansergeant, March 29, 2006, 05:18:25 PM

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michigansergeant

Hi,
    For a long time, the cadets in my squadron have been using the command "eyes" when cadets are at attention in a flight.  They then expect the cadets to turn their heads and watch them and say "click sir/sgt./ma'am".  Is this correct?

MIKE

http://wiki.cadetstuff.org

Quote"Eyes!" "SNAP!" or "Eyeballs!" "CLICK, SIR!"
This is apparently some Army (or Marine Corps as in Eyeballs, CLICK) basic training thing. There is no command "EYES!" or "EYEBALLS!" in CAP, and cadets certainly shouldn't be shouting "SNAP!" or "CLICK!". If an instructor wants their cadets to look at them, they should order AT EASE or REST. This is not only in compliance with AFMAN 36-2203, but it also makes more sense. If a cadet is at attention, even if you let them do it wrong by having them look at you, some of them are not going to be able to see around the cadet in front of them. AT EASE or REST allows them to lean over and crane their necks to get a view of your demonstration.

The commands in the manual will do just about anything you want. AT EASE can be used if you don't want any questions. REST can be used if you wish to allow them to ask questions. ATTENTION is used when you are ready to drill. By using them the way they were intended, you will teach your cadets the true purpose of these commands.
Mike Johnston

shorning

Quote from: michigansergeant on March 29, 2006, 05:18:25 PM
Hi,
    For a long time, the cadets in my squadron have been using the command "eyes" when cadets are at attention in a flight.  They then expect the cadets to turn their heads and watch them and say "click sir/sgt./ma'am".  Is this correct?

In short, no.

Bad training begets bad training begets bad training begets ...

Nick

Not to mention it sounds really... er, um... happy.
Nicholas McLarty, Lt Col, CAP
Texas Wing Staff Guy
National Cadet Team Guy Emeritus

lordmonar

Properly, you should bring your cadets to "at ease" first.  If you are showing something to your cadets (like a drill movement) and want their attention, you want them to more relaxed.  Plus it allows you to move around with out having to say "eyes" every 15 seconds.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

cadetnelson

I haven't heard the "click, sir" but my squadron does use "Eyes" and "Snap" and "Ears" with "Open".
C/Amn Nelson

Pylon

Quote from: cadetnelson on May 13, 2006, 08:32:34 PM
I haven't heard the "click, sir" but my squadron does use "Eyes" and "Snap" and "Ears" with "Open".

Goes perfectly with a succint and appropriate post a few up

Quote from: shorning on March 29, 2006, 05:34:40 PM
Bad training begets bad training begets bad training begets ...

In short, it's not appropriate.  And the solution was already pointed out right above as well:

Quote from: lordmonar on March 29, 2006, 09:36:20 PM
Properly, you should bring your cadets to "at ease" first.  If you are showing something to your cadets (like a drill movement) and want their attention, you want them to more relaxed.  Plus it allows you to move around with out having to say "eyes" every 15 seconds.
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

cadetnelson

#7
QuoteGoes perfectly with a succint and appropriate post a few up...And the solution was already pointed out right above as well

Well, pardon me for weighing in with what my squadron does.  Yes, the solution was described before, but does that make it wrong to give an opinion or a view from another unit?  Why is it such a bother to have one more reply on a post?  It's not like it takes up much space and can only enhance the conversation by providing another view/opinion.

Like I stated in my thread on BDU sleeves in the uniform forum, "Isn't that what this forum is for?": to talk about stuff like this.  Just because somebody states something doesn't mean other people can't back up that post with an affirmation or negate the post with a counterpoint.


The following is taken from the Code of Conduct thread on the Announcements and Feedback page, written by you, Pylon.  (with bolding emphasis added):
QuoteAll members will respect the opinion and dignity of other members, whether or not they may be present.  Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and certainly discourse on varying opinions is excellent. However, members will not attack others based on their opinions and beliefs, regardless of whether they agree or not.

I should also add for more context that my squadron does not use "Eyes, Snap" while at the position of attention as the thread starter stated.  We only use it as a means to regain the mental attention of members when they are at ease or at rest and they have become too chatty or are not paying mental attention.
C/Amn Nelson

shorning

Quote from: cadetnelson on May 14, 2006, 01:40:33 AM
Well, pardon me for weighing in with what my squadron does. 

That wasn't the point.  You're welcome to express your opinion.  Just don't get upset when some one points out that what your squadron is doing is less than correct.

You might actually learn something if you listen to some of the folks here.

cadetnelson

I don't mind that he pointed that out because I'm new so I have no traditions or preconceptions to be pointed out as wrong.  Someone telling me that that is wrong is fine with me because it means I can start from the beginning by doing it right.  I do listen to the folks here and I want to learn stuff.  That is why I'm here.  I'm not upset at all, because whether or not "Eyes Snap" is right or wrong does not affect me at all whatsoever.  I was simply stating what many in my unit do.

But tone of voice is hard to discern on the Internet, and Pylon's response did not come across as pointing out that the original phrase in question "Eyes, snap" was wrong, it came across as that my post was useless simply because it backed up a point that was already stated by the first poster, that the phrase was in use to begin with.  I interpreted Pylon's message as to be: Don't post something that somebody else has already stated in other words.

If that is not what he meant, then I am wrong and sorry.  If it is what he meant, I disagree.
C/Amn Nelson

capchiro

cadetnelson,

I agree that continuing discourse is a good thing.  By continuing this subject, you mentioned that your squadron does not use eyes, click sir, while at attention, but does so when the squadron is at ease and not paying attention to the speaker.  Again, eye, click sir, is not proper according to my training in the military or CAP manuals.  I believe that the proper command would be attention and then when the squadron is at attention to remind them that training is going on and they are to pay attention and then the command of at ease can be given and the training continued with the cadets paying proper attention to the speaker.  Thus said, without continuing discourse on the subject another important area would not have been addressed and you would not have learned right from wrong.  Carry on, cadet.   
Lt. Col. Harry E. Siegrist III, CAP
Commander
Sweetwater Comp. Sqdn.
GA154

Stephanie Allen

I've actually never heard anyone besides the Marines use the "eyes" "Click" command....I know that for my squadron we put the cadets at ease and then say "All eyes on me" and the cadets echo back "All eyes on you ma'am/sir/sgt". The reason we do this is so the cadets know that it is important to watch what we are doing so as to know what they are expected to do themselves. Though, it is not a command in our D&C it does tend to make things a little smoother.
C/A1C Allen
Flight Sergeant

Yes, sadly, I'm a Flt Sgt and only an A1C...but hey...its been fun! *tehe* Word of advice from the mouth of my fellow Kenosha cadets: "Cabage...not so good at CADEX!" *tehe*

Becks

This is right up there with saying "As you were sir/sgt!" if they call a command that is incorrect.

BBATW

addo1

Quote from: Stephanie Allen on May 22, 2006, 04:08:28 PM
I've actually never heard anyone besides the Marines use the "eyes" "Click" command....I know that for my squadron we put the cadets at ease and then say "All eyes on me" and the cadets echo back "All eyes on you ma'am/sir/sgt". The reason we do this is so the cadets know that it is important to watch what we are doing so as to know what they are expected to do themselves. Though, it is not a command in our D&C it does tend to make things a little smoother.

  I also, have never heard this command used before.

Quote from: cadetnelson on May 14, 2006, 01:40:33 AM
QuoteGoes perfectly with a succint and appropriate post a few up...And the solution was already pointed out right above as well

Well, pardon me for weighing in with what my squadron does.  Yes, the solution was described before, but does that make it wrong to give an opinion or a view from another unit?  Why is it such a bother to have one more reply on a post?  It's not like it takes up much space and can only enhance the conversation by providing another view/opinion.

Like I stated in my thread on BDU sleeves in the uniform forum, "Isn't that what this forum is for?": to talk about stuff like this.  Just because somebody states something doesn't mean other people can't back up that post with an affirmation or negate the post with a counterpoint.


The following is taken from the Code of Conduct thread on the Announcements and Feedback page, written by you, Pylon.  (with bolding emphasis added):
QuoteAll members will respect the opinion and dignity of other members, whether or not they may be present.  Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and certainly discourse on varying opinions is excellent. However, members will not attack others based on their opinions and beliefs, regardless of whether they agree or not.

I should also add for more context that my squadron does not use "Eyes, Snap" while at the position of attention as the thread starter stated.  We only use it as a means to regain the mental attention of members when they are at ease or at rest and they have become too chatty or are not paying mental attention.

  No, I actually like that.  We also tend to have that problem in my squadron with needing to get cadets attention back.
.. Is there anything in the regs about that? 
Addison Jaynes, SFO, CAP
Coordinator, Texas Wing International Air Cadet Exchange


National Cadet Advisory Council 2010

arajca

Quote from: addo1 on April 07, 2008, 11:00:06 AM
  No, I actually like that.  We also tend to have that problem in my squadron with needing to get cadets attention back.
.. Is there anything in the regs about that? 
Um, how about "Parade Rest" instead of "At Ease" or "At Rest"?

Flying Pig

When I was in Marine Boot Camp we used it.  After that, I never heard it used again.  I could see it being used at encampment or a BCS.  Or maybe a new member training flight.  Honestly, I really don't see any issue with it at all if a Sq. has incorporated it into use. The only thing I like to stay away from is having a meeting night where cadets have lost their voice at the end of the night.  Loud squadrons can be very tiring.

NIN

Yeah, its a Marine thing. I'm in the process of helping rewrite the Basic Cadet Training Handbook for the ACA, and darn if we're not having to sort a whole bunch of Marine & Navy stuff out of there..  Some of it is nifty-shifty motivational stuff, and that's fine, but in Basic Cadet Training, IMHO, you need to be focusing on teaching to standard and adding in the "fancy" later, when the cadets are familiar and competent with the materials.

You can't be teaching "Eyes!" "Click SIR!" before you teach them things like Stand At EASE or whatever.  You wind up with a TON of confused cadets, and even worse, cadets who learned things "wrongly" trying to show other cadets "wrongly."

One method, one standard.  Save the fancy crap for your unit.



Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Timothy

Cadet Nelson, and the other cadets reading;

Don't take it to heart. Part of the reason you will find people making very firm statements here is (and you will learn this as you interact with, and command other cadets) some people do not take hints, subtle suggestions, or polite no's. 9 in 10 people will understand that saying "That is not part of our D&C manual, and using unofficial commands is probably not the best way to train cadets" means you should not do it.  But that tenth person will keep doing it because a person of authority did not specifically say "No, you should not do that." Eventually people skip the pleasentries and just say "No, you should not do that." You probably aren't that 10th person, but he or she may read this thread one day.

That said, to put this command in another light, it is at best a crutch used in lieu of real D&C. It is the flight commanders responsibility to train and mold their flight. That flight commanders habits will be reflected by his flight... if he makes up or adopts unofficial commands, the flight will take them as gospel and do the same. Eventually they may not know the correct way to do whatever the unofficial command is acting as a crutch for.

Little things like this probably won't adversely affect cadets at the local squadron level... but what happens when cadets get sent to encampment elsewhere in the state? Or a drill competition? Or what if an AF liaison stops by the squadron? If they don't know any better they will use it like any normal command, and that will be embarrasing.

If a flight is not paying attention the quickest way to snap them back to reality is to call them to attention. Remind them you are instructing them, to watch you, and put them at ease. Do this enough times and they will understand you mean business.
Long Beach Squadron 150
PCR-CA-343

BuckeyeDEJ

Simple rule of thumb: If it's in the Air Force D&C manual, it's satisfactory. If it's not, chances are fairly good it's UNSAT.

Squadrons really should have PRINT copies of the D&C book, and I don't mean "here's the digital copy, now you go print it." That's not going to be good enough.


CAP since 1984: Lt Col; former C/Lt Col; MO, MRO, MS, IO; former sq CC/CD/PA; group, wing, region PA, natl cmte mbr, nat'l staff member.
REAL LIFE: Working journalist in SPG, DTW (News), SRQ, PIT (Trib), 2D1, WVI, W22; editor, desk chief, designer, photog, columnist, reporter, graphics guy, visual editor, but not all at once. Now a communications manager for an international multisport venue.

BlackKnight

^ I agree with that 100%!  It's caused us continuing grief in my squadron since the printed copy of the drill manual was dropped from the cadet binders.  Both parents and new cadets are frustrated. Many of them can't get the "Next Step" CD to run because it contains live content and they can't seem to figure out how to turn off the MS-Windows security protocols. Or whatever. :(
Phil Boylan, Maj, CAP
DCS, Rome Composite Sqdn - GA043
http://www.romecap.org/

RiverAux

"click sir"?????  I am very tempted to say that only the Marines would come up with something that silly, but I won't. 

JoeTomasone

I'm visiting one of our Squadrons right now and they just used the "Eyes!" - "SNAP!" to regain the attention of cadets who became chatty and stopped paying attention during a lesson.   I'm not sure that I either like or dislike it.


Camas


Quote from: JoeTomasone on May 06, 2008, 12:17:08 AM
I'm visiting one of our Squadrons right now and they just used the "Eyes!" - "SNAP!" to regain the attention of cadets who became chatty and stopped paying attention during a lesson.   I'm not sure that I either like or dislike it.
I think the command "at ease" should suffice as pointed out.

Quote from: cadetnelson on May 14, 2006, 01:40:33 AM
Well, pardon me for weighing in with what my squadron does. 
And this from a cadet airman?  Try being a bit more respectful.  Remember, most of these posters are officers and, just maybe, they might know what they're talking about.

fquinonez

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on April 08, 2008, 02:38:43 AM
Simple rule of thumb: If it's in the Air Force D&C manual, it's satisfactory. If it's not, chances are fairly good it's UNSAT.

Squadrons really should have PRINT copies of the D&C book, and I don't mean "here's the digital copy, now you go print it." That's not going to be good enough.

This is a great opinion, however, the Air Force D&C manual has many inconsistancies as well.  Alsl, when you look at the make up of the organization, there are many members who were taught basic drill & ceremonies from older CAP texts that were based off of older Air Force manuals.  I for one have found issues with the new AUSAF D&C manuals.  Also, I was taught drill in the days of obliques.  Most under 40 have no idea what I just said, unless you were in the Corps.

fquinonez

As an interesting note for those that have pointed out that this must be a "Marine thing", this is introduced during Marine Corps bott camp in the receiving phase.  When you get 200+ rag tag civilians from all walks of life in one place, they seem to form a mob.  using the "eyeballs-click" sequence is the beginning of forming this mob into an orderly military unit.  The sequence is NOT carried on through bootcamp and is typically removed from the vocabiulary by the end of first phase/week4. 

With the type of training and time frames that we are accustomed to in CAP, there should be no need for sequences such as these.  We do have time for individual instruction, and I have never seen a group of 200 outside of an encampment or NCSA.  That being said, those cadets should already have some of the basic D&C training required, so as to not have a need to use this type of command sequence.

My 2 cents...

afgeo4

Quote from: fquinonez on June 10, 2008, 09:38:33 PM
As an interesting note for those that have pointed out that this must be a "Marine thing", this is introduced during Marine Corps bott camp in the receiving phase.  When you get 200+ rag tag civilians from all walks of life in one place, they seem to form a mob.  using the "eyeballs-click" sequence is the beginning of forming this mob into an orderly military unit.  The sequence is NOT carried on through bootcamp and is typically removed from the vocabiulary by the end of first phase/week4. 

With the type of training and time frames that we are accustomed to in CAP, there should be no need for sequences such as these.  We do have time for individual instruction, and I have never seen a group of 200 outside of an encampment or NCSA.  That being said, those cadets should already have some of the basic D&C training required, so as to not have a need to use this type of command sequence.

My 2 cents...
We probably could have used it at McGuire AFB last summer, but I digress.
GEORGE LURYE

Hawk200

Quote from: Camas on May 06, 2008, 01:25:40 AM

Quote from: JoeTomasone on May 06, 2008, 12:17:08 AM
I'm visiting one of our Squadrons right now and they just used the "Eyes!" - "SNAP!" to regain the attention of cadets who became chatty and stopped paying attention during a lesson.   I'm not sure that I either like or dislike it.
I think the command "at ease" should suffice as pointed out.

I'd agree. Heard that used in both the Air Force and the Army, so it wouldn't hurt for them to learn it that way.

ADCAPer

Quote from: Hawk200 on June 10, 2008, 11:48:07 PM
I'd agree. Heard that used in both the Air Force and the Army, so it wouldn't hurt for them to learn it that way.

Well, for what it's worth, 20 years ADAF, and I never heard this at all. Most likely because it's not right. This sounds like something that someone dreamed up because they thought that it made them sound cool. I don't understand why there are so many units that go their own way instead of just sticking to teaching the cadets the policies and procedures that are in the regulations. Or even better, we've found that teaching the cadets how to navigate, and how to interpret the regulations ensures that they know when someone is feeding them a line of crap. I can tell you this much, if someone came into my unit and tried this it would definitely hurt something...and that would most likely be there pride, because they would be corrected immediately.

Quote from: fquinonez on June 10, 2008, 09:30:44 PM
This is a great opinion, however, the Air Force D&C manual has many inconsistancies as well.

Okay, I'll bite. These inconsistencies would be...?

Eclipse

Quote from: ADCAPer on June 13, 2008, 01:15:32 AMI don't understand why there are so many units that go their own way instead of just sticking to teaching the cadets the policies and procedures that are in the regulations.

Because making things up based on something cool you saw in a movie is way easier than actually reading the manuals.

"That Others May Zoom"

Taber4

Whenever we use "eyes" in my squadron the members all reply with "snap sir/ma'am/sgt/airman/whatever".  When we are all getting buckled in to go someplace in a car or van the drivers asks "Is everyone buckled up" or something like that and the passengers reply with "click" because of the sound of the buckle. 

When someone calls "eyes" they are trying to get everyone's attention so that they may say something important or relevant to orders.  I personally like the call of "eyes" and don't care if people reply differently to it.  Just to make things clear but the Drill and Ceremonies Manual doesn't cover everything under the sun.  They don't tell people how to run their meetings or how to conduct activities and no one complains about it.  I don't see this as anything different.
Wes Clark
C/CMSgt
MA-071: Pilgrim Squadron, Plymouth MA
Squadron First Sergeant
Alpha Color Guard Commander

JayT

Quote from: Taber4 on June 16, 2008, 04:48:08 PM
Whenever we use "eyes" in my squadron the members all reply with "snap sir/ma'am/sgt/airman/whatever".  When we are all getting buckled in to go someplace in a car or van the drivers asks "Is everyone buckled up" or something like that and the passengers reply with "click" because of the sound of the buckle. 

When someone calls "eyes" they are trying to get everyone's attention so that they may say something important or relevant to orders.  I personally like the call of "eyes" and don't care if people reply differently to it.  Just to make things clear but the Drill and Ceremonies Manual doesn't cover everything under the sun.  They don't tell people how to run their meetings or how to conduct activities and no one complains about it.  I don't see this as anything different.

It's radically different.

The Drill and Ceremonies Manual doesn't cover everything under the sun, but it covers everything related to Drill and Ceremonies. If you need to talk to your flight, follow the book, put them to Rest, and talk.

Do you think that CAP should prepare cadets for military service?
"Eagerness and thrill seeking in others' misery is psychologically corrosive, and is also rampant in EMS. It's a natural danger of the job. It will be something to keep under control, something to fight against."

jimmydeanno

Quote from: JThemann on June 16, 2008, 06:20:19 PM
Do you think that CAP should prepare cadets for military service?

Depends on what you mean. 

Is the goal of the CP to prepare youth for military service - no. 
Is the goal to orient them to the military - no. 

Quote1-1. The Cadet Program's Mission & Goals. The mission of the Civil Air Patrol Cadet Program is to provide the youth of our nation with a quality program that enhances their leadership skills through an interest in aviation, and simultaneously provide service to the United States Air Force and the local community.

Do the leadership skills that are learned transfer to the military easily, sure, but they do to other fields too.

I think that a lot of the cadets that join are interested in the military and like many of the things the CP can entail, but it is not the goal of the CAP CP to act as a military recruiting service or accession program.  No matter how much "CAP Experience" a cadet has whatever branch they join will "re-train" them on how they want things done.



If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

mikeylikey

^ Agree with Jimmy's points. 

Use the D&C manual and phrases contained within.  Lets not create more "My SQD uses this phrase" and "we say this at Encampment" items.  There is correct verbage and then there are words either made up or "heard on television or the movies".  Trust me when I say what is heard on television or at the the theatre relating to military terminology, is usually never heard in the military. 

Cadets are real good at trying to bring military verbage and terminology into the local SQD.  When I overhear things like "eyes, click....blah blah blah", I always ask where they got that from, then ask them to look up to correct way to address others. 

Lets stick to the D&C manual, and use commands contained within.   
What's up monkeys?

ADCAPer

Quote from: Taber4 on June 16, 2008, 04:48:08 PM
Whenever we use "eyes" in my squadron the members all reply with "snap sir/ma'am/sgt/airman/whatever".  When we are all getting buckled in to go someplace in a car or van the drivers asks "Is everyone buckled up" or something like that and the passengers reply with "click" because of the sound of the buckle. 

When someone calls "eyes" they are trying to get everyone's attention so that they may say something important or relevant to orders.  I personally like the call of "eyes" and don't care if people reply differently to it.  Just to make things clear but the Drill and Ceremonies Manual doesn't cover everything under the sun.  They don't tell people how to run their meetings or how to conduct activities and no one complains about it.  I don't see this as anything different.

Well, I'm not trying to pound on you, but let's see if we can sit you on the right path here C/Chief.

First of all, if you'll go back to the beginning of this topic you'll see that it concerns commands of a flight while they are at attention. Surely by now you've picked up on the fact that CAP uses the AF Drill and Ceremonies Manual, and "eyes" "click" isn't mentioned anywhere. Now, if this is something your unit wants to use to make sure the seatbelts are fastened, fine, but it's not a drill command, and therefore has no business being used in formation.

Second, the Drill and Ceremonies Manual wasn't meant to cover everything, just Drill and Ceremony, and get ready for a life lesson, even if you don't like it, you still have to go by it. If you need to get the attention of a Flight, the command is "Attention".  If you don't like it, use your Chain of Command to try and get it changed, but you don't get to make up your own rules.

Third, CAP does tell you how to run your meetings, or conduct an activity, so I'd suggest you get more familiar with CAPR 52-16. But before you read that, take a look at CAPR 5-4 and check out the definitions, which should make a lot of things clearer for you.

And finally, if you've never done it, start with AFPD 10-27, and read all of the AF guidance on CAP, then start with the CAP Constitution and read everything from there through the CAP regulations, it'll put you in a small minority of people who have ever done it, and it will give you a better understanding of how and why many things are done the way they are.

BuckeyeDEJ

Quote from: jimmydeanno on June 16, 2008, 06:56:53 PM
No matter how much "CAP Experience" a cadet has whatever branch they join will "re-train" them on how they want things done.

OK, screw it, then. Cadets should not get to test out of basic training days, nor should they get advanced grade. And forget any advanced consideration in ROTC or at USAFA. Apparently, the "CAP Experience" isn't supposed to be preparatory in any way. Guess the Air Force's expectations of CAP are set a little high. (Ref: AFI 10-2701)

Now, without the snippiness:

There's always been a problem in CAP with standardizing operations, to include D&C. It doesn't mean we settle for mediocrity -- it means we step up and get it right, and equip cadets with the knowledge they need to meet expectations of the Air Force and other military branches. Aim high.

I agree with Jimmy that  the cadet program should cultivate leaders and develop management skills. But the program is also an Air Force-funded program that's the best feeder system the Air Force has. We train leaders, we train strong Americans, and we do it in an Air Force context. So we do it the right way, every time. Or we'd better do it that way. Agreed, folks?


CAP since 1984: Lt Col; former C/Lt Col; MO, MRO, MS, IO; former sq CC/CD/PA; group, wing, region PA, natl cmte mbr, nat'l staff member.
REAL LIFE: Working journalist in SPG, DTW (News), SRQ, PIT (Trib), 2D1, WVI, W22; editor, desk chief, designer, photog, columnist, reporter, graphics guy, visual editor, but not all at once. Now a communications manager for an international multisport venue.

mikeylikey

What's up monkeys?

BuckeyeDEJ

Quote from: mikeylikey on July 12, 2008, 01:58:10 AM
Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on July 11, 2008, 11:56:33 PM
Aim high.

Actually........ "Above All"

:D
Didn't someone say that translates as "uber alles" in German? That's a little scary.

In any event, do it right or don't do it at all. Now that I've said that: "Thread, CLICK!"


CAP since 1984: Lt Col; former C/Lt Col; MO, MRO, MS, IO; former sq CC/CD/PA; group, wing, region PA, natl cmte mbr, nat'l staff member.
REAL LIFE: Working journalist in SPG, DTW (News), SRQ, PIT (Trib), 2D1, WVI, W22; editor, desk chief, designer, photog, columnist, reporter, graphics guy, visual editor, but not all at once. Now a communications manager for an international multisport venue.

jimmydeanno

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on July 11, 2008, 11:56:33 PM
OK, screw it, then. Cadets should not get to test out of basic training days, nor should they get advanced grade. And forget any advanced consideration in ROTC or at USAFA. Apparently, the "CAP Experience" isn't supposed to be preparatory in any way. Guess the Air Force's expectations of CAP are set a little high. (Ref: AFI 10-2701)

Now that you've got that out of your system...

First question I have for you is regarding the "testing out of basic training days."  What is this?  I've never heard of it.

The "CAP experience,", by our own regulations, is supposed to "...provide the youth of our nation with a quality program that enhances their leadership skills through an interest in aviation, and simultaneously provide service to the United States Air Force and the local community."

The reference AFI makes no mention of CAP being a military preparation program for the cadets - not one single time.  The AF's expectations of CAP are to maintain staffing and training to accomplish AFAMs - that's it.

The military is willing to shell out some money for the leadership skills that the cadet has from their experience in CAP.  They aren't promoting people because they learned how to make their bunk at encampment or how to drill at the local squadron.  The military affords advanced grade for many reasons including; recruiting a few people, being an Eagle Scout and signing up for 6 years instead of 4.  None of which include any military former indoctrination/familiarization.

Everyone going through basic training goes through the same training program regardless of their experience.  If a CAP cadet decides to join the Army or Navy instead of the Air Force, they'll have to be taught how to drill all over again - what won't change is their developed leadership skills, which is actually in our goals for our CAP cadets.

The advanced grade helps our cadets (as well as those who got advanced grade for other reasons) by enabling them to test for SSgt during their first enlistment, increases their chances of getting SrA below the zone, lets them not live in the dorms sooner (being married will fix that though :) ), etc.  It lets them advance their careers faster than the traditional "entry level" enlistee and get paid a little more.  They don't get any special perks at the USAFA or the Prep School - their CAP experience just lets them focus more on the things they don't know.
If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill