"eyes"-"click sir!"

Started by michigansergeant, March 29, 2006, 05:18:25 PM

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michigansergeant

Hi,
    For a long time, the cadets in my squadron have been using the command "eyes" when cadets are at attention in a flight.  They then expect the cadets to turn their heads and watch them and say "click sir/sgt./ma'am".  Is this correct?

MIKE

http://wiki.cadetstuff.org

Quote"Eyes!" "SNAP!" or "Eyeballs!" "CLICK, SIR!"
This is apparently some Army (or Marine Corps as in Eyeballs, CLICK) basic training thing. There is no command "EYES!" or "EYEBALLS!" in CAP, and cadets certainly shouldn't be shouting "SNAP!" or "CLICK!". If an instructor wants their cadets to look at them, they should order AT EASE or REST. This is not only in compliance with AFMAN 36-2203, but it also makes more sense. If a cadet is at attention, even if you let them do it wrong by having them look at you, some of them are not going to be able to see around the cadet in front of them. AT EASE or REST allows them to lean over and crane their necks to get a view of your demonstration.

The commands in the manual will do just about anything you want. AT EASE can be used if you don't want any questions. REST can be used if you wish to allow them to ask questions. ATTENTION is used when you are ready to drill. By using them the way they were intended, you will teach your cadets the true purpose of these commands.
Mike Johnston

shorning

Quote from: michigansergeant on March 29, 2006, 05:18:25 PM
Hi,
    For a long time, the cadets in my squadron have been using the command "eyes" when cadets are at attention in a flight.  They then expect the cadets to turn their heads and watch them and say "click sir/sgt./ma'am".  Is this correct?

In short, no.

Bad training begets bad training begets bad training begets ...

Nick

Not to mention it sounds really... er, um... happy.
Nicholas McLarty, Lt Col, CAP
Texas Wing Staff Guy
National Cadet Team Guy Emeritus

lordmonar

Properly, you should bring your cadets to "at ease" first.  If you are showing something to your cadets (like a drill movement) and want their attention, you want them to more relaxed.  Plus it allows you to move around with out having to say "eyes" every 15 seconds.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

cadetnelson

I haven't heard the "click, sir" but my squadron does use "Eyes" and "Snap" and "Ears" with "Open".
C/Amn Nelson

Pylon

Quote from: cadetnelson on May 13, 2006, 08:32:34 PM
I haven't heard the "click, sir" but my squadron does use "Eyes" and "Snap" and "Ears" with "Open".

Goes perfectly with a succint and appropriate post a few up

Quote from: shorning on March 29, 2006, 05:34:40 PM
Bad training begets bad training begets bad training begets ...

In short, it's not appropriate.  And the solution was already pointed out right above as well:

Quote from: lordmonar on March 29, 2006, 09:36:20 PM
Properly, you should bring your cadets to "at ease" first.  If you are showing something to your cadets (like a drill movement) and want their attention, you want them to more relaxed.  Plus it allows you to move around with out having to say "eyes" every 15 seconds.
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

cadetnelson

#7
QuoteGoes perfectly with a succint and appropriate post a few up...And the solution was already pointed out right above as well

Well, pardon me for weighing in with what my squadron does.  Yes, the solution was described before, but does that make it wrong to give an opinion or a view from another unit?  Why is it such a bother to have one more reply on a post?  It's not like it takes up much space and can only enhance the conversation by providing another view/opinion.

Like I stated in my thread on BDU sleeves in the uniform forum, "Isn't that what this forum is for?": to talk about stuff like this.  Just because somebody states something doesn't mean other people can't back up that post with an affirmation or negate the post with a counterpoint.


The following is taken from the Code of Conduct thread on the Announcements and Feedback page, written by you, Pylon.  (with bolding emphasis added):
QuoteAll members will respect the opinion and dignity of other members, whether or not they may be present.  Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and certainly discourse on varying opinions is excellent. However, members will not attack others based on their opinions and beliefs, regardless of whether they agree or not.

I should also add for more context that my squadron does not use "Eyes, Snap" while at the position of attention as the thread starter stated.  We only use it as a means to regain the mental attention of members when they are at ease or at rest and they have become too chatty or are not paying mental attention.
C/Amn Nelson

shorning

Quote from: cadetnelson on May 14, 2006, 01:40:33 AM
Well, pardon me for weighing in with what my squadron does. 

That wasn't the point.  You're welcome to express your opinion.  Just don't get upset when some one points out that what your squadron is doing is less than correct.

You might actually learn something if you listen to some of the folks here.

cadetnelson

I don't mind that he pointed that out because I'm new so I have no traditions or preconceptions to be pointed out as wrong.  Someone telling me that that is wrong is fine with me because it means I can start from the beginning by doing it right.  I do listen to the folks here and I want to learn stuff.  That is why I'm here.  I'm not upset at all, because whether or not "Eyes Snap" is right or wrong does not affect me at all whatsoever.  I was simply stating what many in my unit do.

But tone of voice is hard to discern on the Internet, and Pylon's response did not come across as pointing out that the original phrase in question "Eyes, snap" was wrong, it came across as that my post was useless simply because it backed up a point that was already stated by the first poster, that the phrase was in use to begin with.  I interpreted Pylon's message as to be: Don't post something that somebody else has already stated in other words.

If that is not what he meant, then I am wrong and sorry.  If it is what he meant, I disagree.
C/Amn Nelson

capchiro

cadetnelson,

I agree that continuing discourse is a good thing.  By continuing this subject, you mentioned that your squadron does not use eyes, click sir, while at attention, but does so when the squadron is at ease and not paying attention to the speaker.  Again, eye, click sir, is not proper according to my training in the military or CAP manuals.  I believe that the proper command would be attention and then when the squadron is at attention to remind them that training is going on and they are to pay attention and then the command of at ease can be given and the training continued with the cadets paying proper attention to the speaker.  Thus said, without continuing discourse on the subject another important area would not have been addressed and you would not have learned right from wrong.  Carry on, cadet.   
Lt. Col. Harry E. Siegrist III, CAP
Commander
Sweetwater Comp. Sqdn.
GA154

Stephanie Allen

I've actually never heard anyone besides the Marines use the "eyes" "Click" command....I know that for my squadron we put the cadets at ease and then say "All eyes on me" and the cadets echo back "All eyes on you ma'am/sir/sgt". The reason we do this is so the cadets know that it is important to watch what we are doing so as to know what they are expected to do themselves. Though, it is not a command in our D&C it does tend to make things a little smoother.
C/A1C Allen
Flight Sergeant

Yes, sadly, I'm a Flt Sgt and only an A1C...but hey...its been fun! *tehe* Word of advice from the mouth of my fellow Kenosha cadets: "Cabage...not so good at CADEX!" *tehe*

Becks

This is right up there with saying "As you were sir/sgt!" if they call a command that is incorrect.

BBATW

addo1

Quote from: Stephanie Allen on May 22, 2006, 04:08:28 PM
I've actually never heard anyone besides the Marines use the "eyes" "Click" command....I know that for my squadron we put the cadets at ease and then say "All eyes on me" and the cadets echo back "All eyes on you ma'am/sir/sgt". The reason we do this is so the cadets know that it is important to watch what we are doing so as to know what they are expected to do themselves. Though, it is not a command in our D&C it does tend to make things a little smoother.

  I also, have never heard this command used before.

Quote from: cadetnelson on May 14, 2006, 01:40:33 AM
QuoteGoes perfectly with a succint and appropriate post a few up...And the solution was already pointed out right above as well

Well, pardon me for weighing in with what my squadron does.  Yes, the solution was described before, but does that make it wrong to give an opinion or a view from another unit?  Why is it such a bother to have one more reply on a post?  It's not like it takes up much space and can only enhance the conversation by providing another view/opinion.

Like I stated in my thread on BDU sleeves in the uniform forum, "Isn't that what this forum is for?": to talk about stuff like this.  Just because somebody states something doesn't mean other people can't back up that post with an affirmation or negate the post with a counterpoint.


The following is taken from the Code of Conduct thread on the Announcements and Feedback page, written by you, Pylon.  (with bolding emphasis added):
QuoteAll members will respect the opinion and dignity of other members, whether or not they may be present.  Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and certainly discourse on varying opinions is excellent. However, members will not attack others based on their opinions and beliefs, regardless of whether they agree or not.

I should also add for more context that my squadron does not use "Eyes, Snap" while at the position of attention as the thread starter stated.  We only use it as a means to regain the mental attention of members when they are at ease or at rest and they have become too chatty or are not paying mental attention.

  No, I actually like that.  We also tend to have that problem in my squadron with needing to get cadets attention back.
.. Is there anything in the regs about that? 
Addison Jaynes, SFO, CAP
Coordinator, Texas Wing International Air Cadet Exchange


National Cadet Advisory Council 2010

arajca

Quote from: addo1 on April 07, 2008, 11:00:06 AM
  No, I actually like that.  We also tend to have that problem in my squadron with needing to get cadets attention back.
.. Is there anything in the regs about that? 
Um, how about "Parade Rest" instead of "At Ease" or "At Rest"?

Flying Pig

When I was in Marine Boot Camp we used it.  After that, I never heard it used again.  I could see it being used at encampment or a BCS.  Or maybe a new member training flight.  Honestly, I really don't see any issue with it at all if a Sq. has incorporated it into use. The only thing I like to stay away from is having a meeting night where cadets have lost their voice at the end of the night.  Loud squadrons can be very tiring.

NIN

Yeah, its a Marine thing. I'm in the process of helping rewrite the Basic Cadet Training Handbook for the ACA, and darn if we're not having to sort a whole bunch of Marine & Navy stuff out of there..  Some of it is nifty-shifty motivational stuff, and that's fine, but in Basic Cadet Training, IMHO, you need to be focusing on teaching to standard and adding in the "fancy" later, when the cadets are familiar and competent with the materials.

You can't be teaching "Eyes!" "Click SIR!" before you teach them things like Stand At EASE or whatever.  You wind up with a TON of confused cadets, and even worse, cadets who learned things "wrongly" trying to show other cadets "wrongly."

One method, one standard.  Save the fancy crap for your unit.



Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Timothy

Cadet Nelson, and the other cadets reading;

Don't take it to heart. Part of the reason you will find people making very firm statements here is (and you will learn this as you interact with, and command other cadets) some people do not take hints, subtle suggestions, or polite no's. 9 in 10 people will understand that saying "That is not part of our D&C manual, and using unofficial commands is probably not the best way to train cadets" means you should not do it.  But that tenth person will keep doing it because a person of authority did not specifically say "No, you should not do that." Eventually people skip the pleasentries and just say "No, you should not do that." You probably aren't that 10th person, but he or she may read this thread one day.

That said, to put this command in another light, it is at best a crutch used in lieu of real D&C. It is the flight commanders responsibility to train and mold their flight. That flight commanders habits will be reflected by his flight... if he makes up or adopts unofficial commands, the flight will take them as gospel and do the same. Eventually they may not know the correct way to do whatever the unofficial command is acting as a crutch for.

Little things like this probably won't adversely affect cadets at the local squadron level... but what happens when cadets get sent to encampment elsewhere in the state? Or a drill competition? Or what if an AF liaison stops by the squadron? If they don't know any better they will use it like any normal command, and that will be embarrasing.

If a flight is not paying attention the quickest way to snap them back to reality is to call them to attention. Remind them you are instructing them, to watch you, and put them at ease. Do this enough times and they will understand you mean business.
Long Beach Squadron 150
PCR-CA-343

BuckeyeDEJ

Simple rule of thumb: If it's in the Air Force D&C manual, it's satisfactory. If it's not, chances are fairly good it's UNSAT.

Squadrons really should have PRINT copies of the D&C book, and I don't mean "here's the digital copy, now you go print it." That's not going to be good enough.


CAP since 1984: Lt Col; former C/Lt Col; MO, MRO, MS, IO; former sq CC/CD/PA; group, wing, region PA, natl cmte mbr, nat'l staff member.
REAL LIFE: Working journalist in SPG, DTW (News), SRQ, PIT (Trib), 2D1, WVI, W22; editor, desk chief, designer, photog, columnist, reporter, graphics guy, visual editor, but not all at once. Now a communications manager for an international multisport venue.

BlackKnight

^ I agree with that 100%!  It's caused us continuing grief in my squadron since the printed copy of the drill manual was dropped from the cadet binders.  Both parents and new cadets are frustrated. Many of them can't get the "Next Step" CD to run because it contains live content and they can't seem to figure out how to turn off the MS-Windows security protocols. Or whatever. :(
Phil Boylan, Maj, CAP
DCS, Rome Composite Sqdn - GA043
http://www.romecap.org/