Mandated uniform inspections for officers

[CAP Producer]

Well we actually do have a enforcement mechanism. If you can't or won't wear the uniform correctly then you should either correct the infraction or be sent home. 

Period. Zero tolerance. No excuses.

The way I look at it is if you can't wear the uniform correctly what makes me think that you can do your job correctly. Yes,  that applies to everyone from the guy in the supply room, to the pilot and especially the commander.

If the members with uniform issues dissapear, so much the better. They can be replaced.

Dude, take a breath . . .

You're saying that if a noob shows up with a wing patch 1/4 inch off on her BDUs that you are gonna make her rip it off right there or leave the meeting in disgrace? 

A 5000-hr mission pilot shows up with the wrong "flavor of the month" command patch on the flight suit and that means that he can't be trusted to fly cadets?


Really?  "Zero tolerance and no excuses"?


Look, I agree that the great majority of blatent uniform infractions come from members' mistakes and commanders' failure to enforce standards, but let me suggest that a significant number of problems stem from the simple fact that our uniform regulations are basically so long and complex as to be unknowable.



Just counting on my fingers, we have something like 10 distinct basic uniforms available to our members.

(Service dress, mess dress, BDU, flight suit, BBDU, BFU, blazer, aviator shirt, golf shirt, corporate service dress - not counting minor variations like corporate flight suits, service vs. service dress, and cadet semi-formal).

The 39-1 is 130 pages long!  And it is not "an easy read,"  full of tables and illustrations (some of which appear to be incorrect or contradict each other.)

And how many ICLS are we up to? 

And it gets even worse if you have been around for a while.  Uniforms change -- what was right a year ago is wrong now.  Is it "US" or "CAP" on the TPU at this point?  How many different nameplates have come and gone in the last three years?


Al, I hear your frustration.  But remember, we have missions to perform.  Our uniforms are just a tool to help us do our job.  Uniforms are a means to an end, not the other way around.


At the end of the day, uniforms are just clothes.


Commanders and leaders should use simple common sense and tact when helping our members meet our arcane and complex regulations.  It is too complex an area for "my way or the the highway."

Ned Lee  Spacing - MIKE

Sorry Ned, common sense certainly does apply and the 39-1 could use alot of improvement. I did not intend to sound that way.

I would never send a new SM home but I would let him know how to fix the problem if it could not be fixed on the spot and give him my tailor's number if needed.

Now the Capt that has been around a while and flagrantly violates the regs. He would go home.

My last post post was a good example of "needing to take a pause away from the keyboard before posting."

Now as to the 39-1. It is what it is, but there are some creative options to help guide members (Especially new members) in wearing the uniform(s) correctly.

I don't have the time but perhaps a series of videos that show how to wear the uniform (based on Capt Corway's excellent guides) would be a good place to start.

Have them hosted on CAPChannel and people can download them with the guides.  You now have a easy to use guide when putting your uniform together or some good hip pocket training.

I got the idea from the USCG. They  did one with their BDU like uniform and It was simple(powerpoint slides, stills and video with a voiceover) but effective. I have the video somewhere but don't remember where I got it.

[heliodoc]

See Hawk

I knew a would get a rise....

REAd I did say  if your going to wear the uni, wear it right.

CAP may be getting long in the tooth...What happened if it alll went away?

Sure think there'd be  ALOT of tears

Nowhere did I infer playing by ones own rules, did those other really quit because of the garbage types or was it the GOB flying network that required in excess of Commercial PTS's, how about time, fuel, and expense, family life, professional life, etc

Certainly I have struck a cord with some or someone--- But I do not consider myself garbage, SIR!!

[Stonewall]

Isn't it amazing that 13 year old cadets can manage to wear a uniform correctly without argument or fanfair, but we seem to struggle regularly with getting adults to follow simple regulations when wearing theirs.

It's so easy a caveman can do it. 

[RiverAux]

Why are we rehashing this AGAIN?

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1152.0

Because it is following the same track as the previous thread

Are you really running out of things to talk about River??

That thread was from a year and a half ago.  Given the dramatic increase in CAPTalk membership since that time I thought it was appropriate to bring back, along with a poll to see how current people thought about it.  Its not like it was just 2 months ago.  Are we only allowed 1 thread per topic over the entire history of CAPTalk? 

[DC]

Isn't it amazing that 13 year old cadets can manage to wear a uniform correctly without argument or fanfair, but we seem to struggle regularly with getting adults to follow simple regulations when wearing theirs.

It's so easy a caveman can do it. 

:clap: True, and one would think rather embarassing.

We also started a program back when i was at the unit level where once a quarter the seniors got inspected by the cadet commander. 

And just before I left I was working on getting our new seniors to go through the same introduction as the cadets.  They would have to do drill, but only the required actions (salute, stationary drill, and drill in a strait line, and a few others)

Interesting. I have suggested a similar process before to my chain. They were afraid that the seniors would get offended by being inspected and/or taught by a cadet...

[Hawk200]

See Hawk

I knew a would get a rise....

REAd I did say  if your going to wear the uni, wear it right.

CAP may be getting long in the tooth...What happened if it alll went away?

Sure think there'd be  ALOT of tears

Nowhere did I infer playing by ones own rules, did those other really quit because of the garbage types or was it the GOB flying network that required in excess of Commercial PTS's, how about time, fuel, and expense, family life, professional life, etc

Certainly I have struck a cord with some or someone--- But I do not consider myself garbage, SIR!!

Not sure how you define a "rise", merely food for thought.

Nobody actually seems to consider those high quality people that have left over the lower standards. A lot has grown lax. There are squadrons that fall in numbers and are getting deactivated because the quality people are leaving. That means a community that no longer has that support. They no longer have a beneficial program for youth.

From what I've read on this board, a few are going CG Aux. I've even considered it, there's a good size lake with a unit only a few miles from where I live. Some are probably going to the Red Cross. Still others State Guard. We're hemmoraghing people. We shouldn't tolerate mediocrity simply because we have paying members.

You want the folks that are contributing whole heartedly, not defining their limits. They're the ones that answer the call in the wee hours of the morning, the ones that take time off to go to encampment or courses, the ones that are there for the occasional Saturday meeting to cover things that two and a half hours a week doesn't.

Coming in late from work? Not an issue. But if you don't have time to change, then don't work with cadets. Because if you don't have time to change, you don't have time to conduct a good cadet program.

Isn't it amazing that 13 year old cadets can manage to wear a uniform correctly without argument or fanfair, but we seem to struggle regularly with getting adults to follow simple regulations when wearing theirs.

It's so easy a caveman can do it. 

I'll certainly agree with that one.

[IceNine]

Isn't it amazing that 13 year old cadets can manage to wear a uniform correctly without argument or fanfair, but we seem to struggle regularly with getting adults to follow simple regulations when wearing theirs.

It's so easy a caveman can do it. 

:clap: True, and one would think rather embarassing.

We also started a program back when i was at the unit level where once a quarter the seniors got inspected by the cadet commander. 

And just before I left I was working on getting our new seniors to go through the same introduction as the cadets.  They would have to do drill, but only the required actions (salute, stationary drill, and drill in a strait line, and a few others)

Interesting. I have suggested a similar process before to my chain. They were afraid that the seniors would get offended by being inspected and/or taught by a cadet...

Being afraid of our seniors being offended is the fallout from a broken system.  I am of the impression that as long as the cadets are instructed on appropriate procedure in correcting superiors there is no problem.

I would of course been the first senior inspected every time to set the precedent.  I also had the commander and several other well respected staff officers jump in and get inspected as well so that no one could say well "he didn't have to" and the like

[Stonewall]

In the late 90s, my squadron boasted 2 full cadet flights, a full T-Flight and a full senior member flight.  Yes, we stood in formation at 1930 every meeting night.  And yes, the Deputy Commander for Seniors would perform a "walk through inspection" of the senior members.  Most of the time the seniors were in the uniform of the day, so it made for an "official" looking military uniform inspection. 

Difference is, it wasn't ever described as mandatory.  We just did it because the cadets were doing it, so it caught on and became habit/SOP.  For years, we (seniors) stood in formation and conducted uniform inspections as a separate flight.  Cool thing is, no one ever b*tched about it.  Even if they were in CAP polos, they'd still get inspected.  Even cooler, the DCS would make appropriate corrections and most of the time they'd get fixed.  Why?  Because we did it right...

[RiverAux]

Heck, I'd be happy if 39-1 just had a section strongly RECOMMENDING some sort of regular uniform inspection process for officers using some variation of the schedule I proposed or something similar. 

[billford1]

We had a Professional Development Officer who announced Class Bs or Aviator Shirt Uniform for one of his meeting nights. He had us stand in formation and gave us a proper inspection. His take on the gray slacks was there was some room for variation. The only ones that fit me are darker than medium gray. I'm careful to make my appearance correct. If they want uniformity with the Corporate Uniform it would be more workable with the blue and white shirt uniform. I would feel more inclined to be in spec with that one.

[lordmonar]

Okay, it is obvious that there are a number of people in CAP who don't know how to properly wear the CAP uniforms that they own.  We have argued pretty extensively about various ways to address that situation (or whether it is a problem at all), but the military long ago figured out the best way to do this is to inspect uniforms every now and again. 

So, I'm thinking that CAP might want to take a page from that book and insert a section in 39-1 requiring that squadrons conduct an inspection of one of the military style uniforms worn by their members on a quarterly basis.  This might look something like this:
1st Quarter - BDUs
2nd Quarter - AF style flight suits
3rd Quarter - AF style service dress
4th Quarter - Blue BDUs
5th Quarter - Blue flight suits
6th Quarter - CAP corporate service dress
7th Quarter - Gray pants/aviator shirt uniform
8th Quarter - Grey pants/golf shirt uniform

On a designated night within that quarter every senior member who owns one of those uniforms would need to wear it to the squadron meeting where a formal inspection would be held. 

I'm definetely not proposing that any paperwork be associated with the inspections. 

Yes, squadron commanders should always be on the lookout for uniform problems and that should continue, but formal inspections are a proven method to back regular oversight. 

Thoughts?

Useless......I am only rerquired to maintain a "uniform" not a closet full of them.  So If I only own a polo and gray uniform...you inspect me once every two years....pretty useless.

Why not hold squadron commanders accountable for their people not being able to wear their uniform properly.  I would say if you fine squadrons $5 for each gross uniform violation (I don't mean crooked gig line, or wings .56" over ribbons vice .5" but volations like hard rank on USAF style uniforms or beards with flight suits) noticed at a group/wing/natonal/public event it would not take long for squadron commanders to put their feet down on the repeat offendors.

Mandating that a squadron CC do quartly inspections does nothing...because the squadron CC should be constantly inspecting and correcting his members.....Lining up the squadron every 3 months just waistes valuable war story time.

[Major Carrales]

This is ridiculous...

If there were one uniform that everyone wore, then I could see this sort of thing flying.  However, we have such an array of uniforms that I could never say...

"Everyone wear white/greys on this give day and BDUs the next.  Were having an inspection!!!"

I am sorry, I know y'all want higher standards...however, there is yet to be one standard to follow.

And, was was said before, most people don't want to maintain a closet of CAP uniforms.

[RiverAux]

"Everyone wear white/greys on this give day and BDUs the next.  Were having an inspection!!!"

Why not?  We tell cadets, who also have multiple uniform options to do this every week.  Asking officers to wear a particular uniform to a meeting once a quarter is not all that terribly onerous considering they pretty much do what they want the rest of the year. 

Mandating that a squadron CC do quartly inspections does nothing...because the squadron CC should be constantly inspecting and correcting his members.....

I'm pretty sure I said that such things should be going on at all times....So, your contention is that our current system is working fine and that we have an acceptable number of uniform infractions and that those that appear are promptly corrected by the squadron commander or other person in authority? 

[G+10]

As I often am, I am confused. Why all the fuss over scheduling a particular uniform to inspect on a particular night? Get the folks in formation and the inspector would apply the requirements to the particular uniform the person is wearing (along with personal grooming standards if required.)

This way you get inspected every week. There may be several ways of getting someone to wear all the different combos they own, but if they only own one that is the one you get to inspect (although inspecting the polo shirt combo seems to be a fruitless endeavour...)

My two cents is that it is a good idea. For individuals who are not used to reading regs, or may have a problem with interpreting them, inspections are a great training tool.

[RiverAux]

I suppose I was trying to come up with a happy medium with quarterly inspections.  There are more valuable things that can be done with our CAP time so I thought this would be sufficient for the formal inspections.  For that same reason, I suppose I'm not in favor of regular formations for officers.  We've only got a limited amount of time with them in weeknight meetings (also keep in mind that officers don't meet weekly in all units) and I wouldn't want to use up too much of it with such things every time.   

[IceNine]

I am just going to keep on keeping on.  And every time I go for a unit visit I am going to do an inspection and the worse the outcome the more the commander has to hear about it.

Eventually, they will learn to at the very least make sure their folks are squared away when I come around.

I still have one unit that does monthly uniform inspections, they look at whatever appropriate combination the folks have on that day and inspect it accordingly.

There is no reason for us not to be on top of this.  It may never become regulatory but it sure can be a personal sticking point

[Major Carrales]

Oh...where to begin.  Well, let's start with reality.

Most CAP Officers want to serve in the unique manner that CAP Officers; some want youth programs, other flying programs some pure ES and others to help build an organziation in a community.  For most, the Golf Shirt and grey pants can be used for anything.  For others, short sleeve service dress is the universal uniform. Some only own BDUs.  Most only own on set of uniforms...you know, what you wear when it's hot, a jacket for cool weather, a coat for COLD weather and something to fly/UDF in.

Mandated uniform inspections would end up being "toothless tigers" that would spread discontent.

Cadets sign on for CAP for vastly different reasons than CAP Officers, or at least that is what it would seem.  Cadet take an oath that says that they will "wear their uniforms properly," CAP Officers take no such oath and the concept of CAP uniform has been lowered to include a polo shirt and grey pants.

Now, let look at this...

1st Quarter - BDUs
2nd Quarter - AF style flight suits
3rd Quarter - AF style service dress
4th Quarter - Blue BDUs
5th Quarter - Blue flight suits
6th Quarter - CAP corporate service dress
7th Quarter - Gray pants/aviator shirt uniform
8th Quarter - Grey pants/golf shirt uniform

1st  Quarter... 22.95 (top)+ 23.32 (bottom) + 9.50 patrol cap + $ 129.99 = $185.76
2nd Quarter... $188 flight suit + $15.00 fligth cap (use the boots from the BDUs) = $203
3rd Quarter ... Price based on Cadet Free uniform (minus flight cap, with belt, trousers, short sleeve shirt) 45.80 + 59.99 reasonable shoes= $105.49
4th Quarter - Lets assume they cost the same minus the price for footwewar Blue BDUs- $55.77
5th Quarter - Blue flight suits, lets assume same as USAF Flight Suit. $188
6th Quarter - aviator shirt $20
7th Quarter - gray pants $25
8th Quarter - poloshirt $17

That's about $800 not counting shipping, patches and devices; nor cold weather gear, coats jackets, leather jackets, flight jackets and a whole host of other things.  Also, don't recommend surplus stores and the like because not everyone can get the same quality in their area...if at all.

So, shall we call it a cool $1000.

I have been in CAP ten years, collecting uniform items as I go and still I do not have all the combos you mandate up there. 

[lordmonar]

I'm pretty sure I said that such things should be going on at all times....So, your contention is that our current system is working fine and that we have an acceptable number of uniform infractions and that those that appear are promptly corrected by the squadron commander or other person in authority? 

Works fine in all the squadrons I've worked with. 

[RiverAux]

lordm-- nowhere did I say that I was expecting every member to buy all possible uniform combinations and I don't think I've ever heard anyone do that, so your cost quotes are meaningless. 

The suggested schedule was to account for those who actually do own multiple uniforms.  If someone didn't have the uniform being inspected that night, obviously they would wear another appropriate uniform instead. 

[Major Carrales]

The suggested schedule was to account for those who actually do own multiple uniforms.  If someone didn't have the uniform being inspected that night, obviously they would wear another appropriate uniform instead. 

Well, there goes all your significance, inherency and solvency arguments.  I mean, how can you have mandatory inspections of uniform combos on a quarterly schedule of no everyone is going to have the uniforms.

It's STOCK ISSUE time!!!

SIGNIFICANCE- This issue, of uniforms and standards is significant.   However, the idea of a mandatory uniform inspection schedule deemed "mandatory" amid people who do not have to even own the uniforms negates the premise of a uniform inspection and does not significantly address nor slove the proplems mentioned. 

The phrase "If someone didn't have the uniform being inspected that night, obviously they would wear another appropriate uniform instead." totally robs the whole point of having a significant effect when officers can still choose to wear any uniform other than the one assigned.  (1 of 10 points)

HARMS- It has been shown that having mandatory inspections, if even significant enough as proposed, would require people to purchase all the uniforms necessary to participate.  This is shown to be a figure of over $1000 dollars at least.  The cost incurs more harm/is a disadvantage to the way the system currently works.

Also, the disconent from arbitrary interpretation of the regs from unit to unit is harmful as is the waste of time at meeting to inspect CAP Officers, which unlike cadets, do not have uniform wear as part of their curriculum.(1 of 10 points)

INHERENCY- Since CAP Officers "wear another appropriate uniform instead," this is not a significant change from what already occurs.  No new issue is addressed. (1 of 10 points)

TOPICALITY- This is not even topical, behold this... the problem presented is that individual CAP Officers are not wearing uniforms correctly.  However, this proposal tries to solve the matter by attacking a "group."  Sort of like chopping/burning down a forrest to rid the world of one foul tree.    (3 of 10 points)

SOLVENCY- This proposal fails to solve the matter because it doesn't  attack it in a standardized way.  There is little guarantee that correcting a CAP Offier on Tuesday is going to correct the matter on Friday, especially if the CAP Officer chose not to wear the prescriberuniform on inspeaction night. (3 of 10 points)


8 out of 50 points...