Mandated uniform inspections for officers

[RiverAux]

Okay, it is obvious that there are a number of people in CAP who don't know how to properly wear the CAP uniforms that they own.  We have argued pretty extensively about various ways to address that situation (or whether it is a problem at all), but the military long ago figured out the best way to do this is to inspect uniforms every now and again. 

So, I'm thinking that CAP might want to take a page from that book and insert a section in 39-1 requiring that squadrons conduct an inspection of one of the military style uniforms worn by their members on a quarterly basis.  This might look something like this:
1st Quarter - BDUs
2nd Quarter - AF style flight suits
3rd Quarter - AF style service dress
4th Quarter - Blue BDUs
5th Quarter - Blue flight suits
6th Quarter - CAP corporate service dress
7th Quarter - Gray pants/aviator shirt uniform
8th Quarter - Grey pants/golf shirt uniform

On a designated night within that quarter every senior member who owns one of those uniforms would need to wear it to the squadron meeting where a formal inspection would be held. 

I'm definetely not proposing that any paperwork be associated with the inspections. 

Yes, squadron commanders should always be on the lookout for uniform problems and that should continue, but formal inspections are a proven method to back regular oversight. 

Thoughts?

[mikeylikey]

^ Grey pants and the polo are sure easy to screw up! 

Since Cadets are not even required to own anything but the blues (if they can get them for free) and there is no mandate for any uniform for Seniors.........this idea would probably be fought on every level. 

[RiverAux]

^ Grey pants and the polo are sure easy to screw up! 

I just threw them in to round out a 2-year cycle.  But.....
1.  shirts and pants can be horribly wrinkled
2.  they might not be wearing black shoes
3.  threads could be hanging all over the place
4.  could have the wrong rating embroidered on the shirt
5.  could have wrong belts
6.  too many pagers/cell phones on the belt
7.  shoes in disrepair
8.  rips in pants/shirts
9.  could be wearing blue jeans
10.  Could be wearing the wrong hat (say a AF flight cap/BDU cap) with them
11.  Wrong outergarments (say a BDU field jacket with CAP stuff on it)

[mikeylikey]

^ I sit corrected! 

[jb512]

I say definitely yes.  If you want to fly for cheap, then you gotta play by the rules.

[AlphaSigOU]

Instead of rotating the uniform for inspection I would rather designate one meeting night in which the commander or his/her designate require all members to wear a uniform and be inspected with random spot-checks at any time. Unfortunately, current CAP regulations lack 'dinging power' except for the most egregious violations. And uniform violations mostly get a slap on the wrist.

If I were a squadron commander I would expect all my members who wear a uniform to not only wear it correctly but to also make sure it's serviceable. As a condition of membership, if you wear a CAP AF-style or corporate uniform, you wear it right or you get sent home.

I don't wanna hear the day when members whine and cry bitterly when the RealAirForce® decides to whip out the judging shovel on CAP and take away our AF-style uniform wear privilege for good. We were warned repeatedly some years ago and almost lost it once. It could happen again.

[FW]

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha ahahahahahahahahhahahahah

Sorry, I couldn't help it.  The day all members take the wear of our uniforms seriously, will be the day the earth leaves the orbit of the sun, and spins directly toward oblivion  .  

Just come to Orlando and see the show.  I've see almost every possible kind of "wrong" uniform combination imaginable; and some unimaginable.  

I want proper wear just like every concerned member.  However, the only way to do it, IMHO, is to be serious about enforcement.  Commanders may withold "privileges" and, may start ratcheting up disciplinary proceedings until the dreaded "2B" is pulled out from the drawer.  The Air Force takes this seriously and so should we. But.....

[DC]

What is considered an appropriate 'reminder' to a Senior without making just say 'whatever' and go to an organization that doesn't tell them how to dress...

I am all for giving commanders some more power in this regard, but too much will push some people away...

Inspections, if only for the pupose of pointing our dificiancies are a great idea. Cadets do it, it works, and it really doesn't take that long.. It is also the tone set in the squadron. I have seen squadron commanders that look like they have never even heard of 39-1, and consquently most of their people look the same. Get someone that wears their uniform properly, is not afraid to make corrections, and places more importance on proper dress and appearance and the general attitude in the unit will change...

[RiverAux]

Instead of rotating the uniform for inspection I would rather designate one meeting night in which the commander or his/her designate require all members to wear a uniform and be inspected with random spot-checks at any time.

I suggested a rotation so that those with multiple uniforms would eventually get inspected in all of them in a reasonable period of time and also having everyone wear the same uniform on the same night would make it easier on the inspector as they would only need to bone up on the rules for one uniform at a time.  Also, having a night where everybody is in the same uniform rather than the typical hodgepodge, I think is good for morale.

[MIKE]

The worth of the inspection is directly proportional to that of the inspector unfortunately.

Why would you do a different uniform every quarter?  Do you think the majority of members have half the uniforms on your list?  Guess I'll only get inspected on the 1st and 3rd quarter... and if I get rid of my service coat I can cut out that 3rd quarter inspection since you don't care about the L/S or S/S shirts.     Hell, you aren't even inspecting the one uniform I am required to maintain.

It is much more efficient to inspect by equivalents than to separate each of them and inspect less frequently.  Say that this month we will inspect BDUs, Field Uniforms, and Utility Uniforms.  Next month it'll be service uniforms and aviator shirts.  Bags will get inspected at the next aircrew activity.  You can even use SMEs to inspect different uniforms... maybe you don't want me inspecting CAP distinctive uniforms and the TPU 'cause I don't wear 'em, but you have someone who wears 'em and knows them backwards.

[RiverAux]

The schedule was just an example.  I'm more interested in buy-in on the concept.

[PHall]

A "mandatory" inspection program will not work because you have no enforcement powers.

The military has the UCMJ, CAP has squat.

And even if a Unit Commander decided to do the inspections, as soon as they start losing members the program will suddenly disappear.

[CAP Producer]

A "mandatory" inspection program will not work because you have no enforcement powers.

The military has the UCMJ, CAP has squat.

And even if a Unit Commander decided to do the inspections, as soon as they start losing members the program will suddenly disappear.

Well we actually do have a enforcement mechanism. If you can't or won't wear the uniform correctly then you should either correct the infraction or be sent home. 

Period. Zero tolerance. No excuses.

The way I look at it is if you can't wear the uniform correctly what makes me think that you can do your job correctly. Yes,  that applies to everyone from the guy in the supply room, to the pilot and especially the commander.

If the members with uniform issues dissapear, so much the better. They can be replaced.

Sorry to sound so strident but 99% of our uniform problems should be corrected by our leaders (commanders and first line supervisors) at the local level. If this were done uniforms would be much less of an issue.

We don't need a formalized uniform inspection program. We need correctly trained members and leaders performing to standard at all levels.

But I think that many of our leaders tend to be risk adverse.

[IceNine]

There have been a number of times that I did this both formally and informally.

The first time someone wore a uniform combo to a meeting I would ask if I could look it over, no one ever refused.  If the uniform was incorrect I would politely show them the infractions and point them to out logistics guy to correct them.

The 1 and only time I had someone refuse to correct their uniform I promptly showed them the door.  He tried to flame at me for just a second, then realized as the unit commander walked up that he had made a poor decision, and asked if he could still correct the problem instead of leaving.

I make the uniforms at least a touch point when I do squadron visits as well, sometimes it goes over, sometimes they fight me.  But armed with 39-1 I show them there is little use if fighting.

We also started a program back when i was at the unit level where once a quarter the seniors got inspected by the cadet commander. 

And just before I left I was working on getting our new seniors to go through the same introduction as the cadets.  They would have to do drill, but only the required actions (salute, stationary drill, and drill in a strait line, and a few others)

[Ned]

Well we actually do have a enforcement mechanism. If you can't or won't wear the uniform correctly then you should either correct the infraction or be sent home. 

Period. Zero tolerance. No excuses.

The way I look at it is if you can't wear the uniform correctly what makes me think that you can do your job correctly. Yes,  that applies to everyone from the guy in the supply room, to the pilot and especially the commander.

If the members with uniform issues dissapear, so much the better. They can be replaced.

Dude, take a breath . . .

You're saying that if a noob shows up with a wing patch 1/4 inch off on her BDUs that you are gonna make her rip it off right there or leave the meeting in disgrace? 

A 5000-hr mission pilot shows up with the wrong "flavor of the month" command patch on the flight suit and that means that he can't be trusted to fly cadets?


Really?  "Zero tolerance and no excuses"?


Look, I agree that the great majority of blatent uniform infractions come from members' mistakes and commanders' failure to enforce standards, but let me suggest that a significant number of problems stem from the simple fact that our uniform regulations are basically so long and complex as to be unknowable.



Just counting on my fingers, we have something like 10 distinct basic uniforms available to our members.

(Service dress, mess dress, BDU, flight suit, BBDU, BFU, blazer, aviator shirt, golf shirt, corporate service dress - not counting minor variations like corporate flight suits, service vs. service dress, and cadet semi-formal).

The 39-1 is 130 pages long!  And it is not "an easy read,"  full of tables and illustrations (some of which appear to be incorrect or contradict each other.)

And how many ICLS are we up to? 

And it gets even worse if you have been around for a while.  Uniforms change -- what was right a year ago is wrong now.  Is it "US" or "CAP" on the TPU at this point?  How many different nameplates have come and gone in the last three years?


Al, I hear your frustration.  But remember, we have missions to perform.  Our uniforms are just a tool to help us do our job.  Uniforms are a means to an end, not the other way around.


At the end of the day, uniforms are just clothes.


Commanders and leaders should use simple common sense and tact when helping our members meet our arcane and complex regulations.  It is too complex an area for "my way or the the highway."

Ned Lee  Spacing - MIKE

[Stonewall]

My take:

Squadron Commander or higher ranking officer notices a discrepancy of a subordinate member, make a correction.  See a discrepancy on a superior's uniform, tactfully bring it to their attention.

If someone consistently screws it up, suggest an alternate uniform.  If they refuse, take action.

[RiverAux]

Ned, yes the whole 39-1 is very long and as you point out, it covers many, many different uniforms.  However, in my experience most officers have from 1-3 uniforms. 

Yes, some of the rules for uniforms are complex, but that is just another argument FOR having inspections. 

As to enforcement, thats no different than enforcing all of our regulations, but for uniform infractions spotted at an inspection, I would recommend pointing out the problems to them and asking them to get them fixed in a reasonable period of time and then wear the uniform to a meeting where it would get inspected to see if they got it right this time.  I think CAP Producer probably assumed that severa light-touch methods would be used before we got to the nuclear options he presented. 

[heliodoc]

Yes sir

CAP 39-1 right up there with Army AR 670-1.... But you know what??  670-1 is somewhat better organized.

ICL's for 39-1 agreeably are as long as one's arm..  The se folks at Maxwll must not have a real gig anywhere else, huh?

And for you tough guys that want to 2b, lecture, kick out the membership, etc..


REMEMBER the VOLUNTEER status.  I often come in late from work to the meeting  (from wildland fire duty and Duty Officer) that I OFTEN forget my CAP uniform, either deliberate or not.

All Sqdn CC's should SIT DOWN and have a class on their once -a-month moral eadership or leadership night and review that NAUSEATING thing called a 39-1

That thing is pretty long, must keep someone employed at Maxwell, if for no other reason.

GO ahead you 39-1 Rangers, why do you suppose they polo over grays Polo you can control...do you have a grey standard we all should live by???

You are correct...  wear the uni right or do not wear it all.   My squadron has aircrews from airlines, natural resource aviation, AFRES folks, flight instructors, blah, blah, blah.  They aren't always in uniform.  Look at the individual and their contributions to the squadron level.


Go ahead and kick the paying member out, that does some stellar things for the organization and people WILL remeber the uniform Nazis in the future..  A little more reason to get you head of your 4th point of 39-1 contact

SHHEEEESH

[IceNine]

Why are we rehashing this AGAIN?

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1152.0

Because it is following the same track as the previous thread

Are you really running out of things to talk about River??

[Hawk200]

So volunteer status means integrity and compliance with rules is optional? For the most part, people just want to see uniforms worn correctly. If they're not wearing them, there's no real issue.

It's rather insincere to volunteer and then decide to play by your own rules. Many people do that. Anyone that does isn't worth wanting. Everybody whines about how people will leave if they're pushed to wear the uniform properly.

How about the flip side? How many people have left because CAP has been a chicken crap outfit, with people that volunteered, followed the rules, wore their uniform properly, did something to contribute? The ones that got tired of being associated with the garbage types that got away with looking like they slept in their uniform. The ones that got tired of the members that the last thing those members read was the application, and haven't bothered to read anything that says "Civil Air Patrol" on it since.

Apparently, the bar has been set at "mediocre", and many personnel work quite little to acheive it. Don't worry about those Nazis that left because no one wore a uniform properly. They don't seem to mean anything in an organization with low standards.