Better Image Screening at National Headquarters... is it Possible?

[Eagle400]

Some of you may have seen the image of a CAP lieutenant with a Schützenschnur on his Service Dress Uniform within a CAP news article on the national website, which was posted this week.

I keep a folder on my computer of a large number of images found on the CAP website of numerous members who have abused the uniform through ignorance, pretentiousness, and other undesirable character traits.

So I wonder... do the PA folks at National have the ability to finally get it together and start doing a quality job of screening images to be posted on the website, most notably the ones published in articles? 

If not, is there any way they can get that ability and actually keep it?

[PHall]

Why do you have this intense fascination with an organization that you have said more then a few times you will never ever be a member of again.

[Eagle400]

Why do you have this intense fascination with an organization that you have said more then a few times you will never ever be a member of again.

Hmmm... I sense an absence of earnestness in the performance of conducting research.


If I have ever said I would never re-join CAP (which is possible), then it was an insincere statement made in the heat of the moment, sir.

I have stated a number of times that I will return to service in CAP, but not anytime soon.

Of course, had you done extensive and earnest research, you would know that.


Now, back to the topic... 

[shorning]

I keep a folder on my computer of a large number of images found on the CAP website of numerous members who have abused the uniform through ignorance, pretentiousness, and other undesirable character traits.

So what is your claim about the member wearing the Schützenschnur?  I know of at least one active duty US Air Force member that was authorized to wear it.

[Eagle400]

So what is your claim about the member wearing the Schützenschnur?  I know of at least one active duty US Air Force member that was authorized to wear it.

It's not authorized.  How did I get there?  Please consider the following...


1 - He's an officer.  According to U.S. Army regulations, the Schützenschnur is authorized for enlisted personnel only.

2 - CAP is not the Air Force.  It isin't even officially considered a part of the Total Force Structure.

3 - CAP has not been authorized by the Air Staff to allow personnel to wear the Schützenschnur.


Now, if the Air Staff gave the "OK" to CAP for wear of the Schützenschnur, I would have never brought this issue up.

I hope this helps, sir.

[lordmonar]

I keep a folder on my computer of a large number of images found on the CAP website of numerous members who have abused the uniform through ignorance, pretentiousness, and other undesirable character traits.

So what is your claim about the member wearing the Schützenschnur?  I know of at least one active duty US Air Force member that was authorized to wear it.

I know of several.

And once again.....CCSE....once you join your opinion may matter.

[Eagle400]

I know of several.

Awesome!  Are they all enlisted?

And once again.....CCSE....once you join your opinion may matter.

Then consider my opinion frozen in time, sir.

Once I return to service in CAP, the opinion will thaw and thus become eligible for substantiality.
Until then, patience is the order of the day.

[mikeylikey]

1 - He's an officer.  According to U.S. Army regulations, the Schützenschnur is authorized for enlisted personnel only.

Actually that is the German rule.  It is not worn by US Officers, you are correct there, but it can be warded to Officers who particpate in the comp.  I received it in OBC, it is in my file, but I am not allowed to wear it.  No big deal to me.  Also I can be awarded marksmanship badges just like Enlisted folks, but Officers normally don't wear them.  I have several, earned as a Cadet.  

I have noticed many pictures come from NHQ that show improperly dressed members, but I think just getting the stories and releases out is more improtant than going over pics with magnifying glass.  

[shorning]

So what is your claim about the member wearing the Schützenschnur?  I know of at least one active duty US Air Force member that was authorized to wear it.

It's not authorized.  How did I get there?  Please consider the following...


1 - He's an officer.  According to U.S. Army regulations, the Schützenschnur is authorized for enlisted personnel only.

2 - CAP is not the Air Force.  It isin't even officially considered a part of the Total Force Structure.
 
3 - CAP has not been authorized by the Air Staff to allow personnel to wear the Schützenschnur.


Now, if the Air Staff gave the "OK" to CAP for wear of the Schützenschnur, I would have never brought this issue up.

I hope this helps, sir.

Hmmm...jumping to conclusions that are not fact, merely speculation.  You're trying to find problems where none exists.   Your arguments are all thrust and no vector.

[Eagle400]

Hmmm...jumping to conclusions that are not fact, merely speculation.

Fine. 

Please provide the evidence that substantiates your assertion, sir.

[shorning]

Hmmm...jumping to conclusions that are not fact, merely speculation.

Fine. 

Please provide the evidence that substantiates your assertion, sir.

I'm not doing your research for you.  Burden of proof is on your shoulders if you're going to make the claims.  Your previous arguments use faulty logic to get to the conclusion you want.    You're looking at things too concrete.  Try a little critical thinking...

[afgeo4]

CCSE... first off... You don't know who's authorized what for wear. Just because the regs don't authorize something doesn't mean that the leadership can't authorize something for a specific member or a specific activity/event. And guess what... they don't have to tell the public or membership at large about it either. Just that member's chain of command.

Second... google the military term "MUSTANG". It may explain how some officers may end up wearing things awarded only to enlisted.

Third... why do you care? I don't agree that your opinion doesn't matter. This is public forum. I'm just trying to figure out why you'd care. The images portray a positive image of CAP members through their work. That's important to CAP and its members. It is a public website and the general member of the public won't notice such imperfections and if it does, won't care.

Many soldiers wear unauthorized items on their uniforms in combat. That doesn't take anything away from them as soldiers and it wouldn't be in good taste to comment on it.

If you'd like to criticize those members for wearing the uniform improperly, first join and wear the uniform properly. Otherwise, you haven't earned the right to criticize.

Having said that, we welcome constructive comments from you and all else on this forum.

[Eagle400]

I'm not doing your research for you.  Burden of proof is on your shoulders if you're going to make the claims.  Your previous arguments use faulty logic to get to the conclusion you want.

   

Fair enough.

You're looking at things too concrete.  Try a little critical thinking...

That is the only educated thing you said in your response.


Something about, scholarly analysis?

[JC004]

I wish I had time to keep tabs on the dress and appearance of members of an organization I'm not in...

[Eagle400]

Out of respect for *shorning and everyone else, I present my logic and dare to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that this logic is not faulty:

Here is what CAPM 39-1 says with regard to foreign decorations:



This paragraph does not say badges; it says decorations.  In neither CAPM 39-1 or CAPM 39-3 is the word "decoration" defined.

However, CAPM 39-3, does show the Unit Citation Award Medal, the Silver Medal of Valor, and every medal in between as being under the category of "Decorations", suggesting that such awards do qualify as Decorations, but badges (for example, the Schützenschnur) do not.

So my advice to anyone who has earned the Schützenschnur and wishes to wear it as a member of CAP is to contact National Headquarters and verify whether or not it is authorized for wear.



Personally, I have nothing against CAP members who have earned this badge and choose to wear it so long as it is authorized for wear by Air Force personnel.  However, even if the Air Staff have approved of its wear by CAP members, National Headquarters has the final say.

And since I have never seen anything in either CAP regulations or the CAP Knowledgebase specifically stating it is authorized for wear, I will err on the side of caution and continue to be highly suspect of its legitimacy as an approved accoutrement on the CAP uniform. 

However, I do apologize for jumping the gun and stating that the Air Staff have not authorized CAP personnel to wear the badge.  The only reason I said this is because National Headquarters has never specifically stated that the Schützenschnur is authorized for wear by CAP members.  This led me to believe that it is not an authorized foreign accoutrement.


National Headquarters really should make a list of foreign decorations, badges, etc. authorized for wear on the Air Force uniform and make it an addendum to CAPM 39-1 in order to clear up the confusion on which foreign accoutrements are authorized for wear, and which ones are not.


Now how's that for critical thinking skills?

*I only address members by username.  That is my policy for everyone on this site.  If someone wants me to address them by their name and rank, they are more than welcome to modify their username to reflect such information.

[Eagle400]

Many soldiers wear unauthorized items on their uniforms in combat. That doesn't take anything away from them as soldiers and it wouldn't be in good taste to comment on it.

Quite frankly, they have earned the right to do so; CAP members have not.

Sorry Pennsylvania Wing, but going on a SAR mission as a "CAP Ranger" does not count as combat.

Ditto with helping manage the Oshkosh Airshow as a Blue Beret.

If you'd like to criticize those members for wearing the uniform improperly, first join and wear the uniform properly. Otherwise, you haven't earned the right to criticize.

Pardon me for saying so, but I have worn the uniform for 8 years (9 if you count my year in ROTC) within my short life of 22 years.  I believe I have earned the right to provide both praise and criticism to those who wear the uniform, respectively.   

Having said that, we welcome constructive comments from you and all else on this forum.

Thank you for reassuring me that not all people on this site are biased against me, sir.

[lordmonar]

I've got 22 years wear the uniform of our nation.....25 if you count AFJROTC, AFROTC and CAP time.

So if we are going to use "uniform time" as a basis for establishing credibilty and earning the right to praise and criticize....I win.

As for people (me specificaly) being biased against you...you are right we are....you bring up non issues just to throw mud into the eye of an organisation you claim to like.

You got issues.....you've been kicked off Cadet Stuff, stopped posting on military.com and when you where there you talked trash about CAPTALK.

Now you are back....and nothing has changed.

Put your money where your mouth is....join CAP and then make a difference.  Otherwise....just take it else where.

[shorning]

Now how's that for critical thinking skills?

You're still jumping to unfounded conclusions based on your own opinions and interpretations.  You're finding the problems that your looking for.  Try the reverse approach.  See if you can find a way that it would be authorized.  You just keep looking for the "problem".



My unsolicited advice though...press on with your life.  There are enough problems in the world without you making them up.  Seriously, this fixation of yours isn't good for you.  I know it's an emotional/ego thing for you, but you have either chosen not to be a member or told that your not welcome.  At some point, you just have to let go.

You're too fixated on this for your own good.  You should pick up a hobby or something in stead of trolling around the internet.  Otherwise, you're just here to ruffle people's feathers.

Oh and BTW...I think you can cut out the feigned politeness.  We know you're not sincere and it's not helping your case.  I know you're trying to prove that you can play well with others, but It just comes across as insincere.

[PHall]

Okay CCSE, what would it take for you to rejoin CAP?

[Big Mike]

The senior who is wearing the foreign award earned it as a Army NCO. Per Reg. 39-1 he read that he was able to wear it. Now that he is a officer in CAP, his Group Commander decided  that he should not wear it.

[PHall]

The senior who is wearing the foreign award earned it as a Army NCO. Per Reg. 39-1 he read that he was able to wear it. Now that he is a officer in CAP, his Group Commander decided  that he should not wear it.

He should contact National and get a ruling on this.
Not saying thiat he should go over his Group Commanders head, but a decision from National would settle it once and for all.

[mikeylikey]

5. 4-b in 39-1 Above ^ makes me think the CAP member is allowed to wear it if it is noted in in his military file. 

Honestly, who cares.  CCSE, and that is about it. 

[RiverAux]

To go back o the original issue -- squadron and wing public affairs officers should also be familiar enough with CAP uniform regulations to prevent any really bad uniform violations from getting published anywhere, much less sent to national.  However, as long as they catch the big mistakes, I think its inevitable that relatively small things like this will slip by them. 

[Eagle400]

I've got 22 years wear the uniform of our nation.....25 if you count AFJROTC, AFROTC and CAP time.

So if we are going to use "uniform time" as a basis for establishing credibilty and earning the right to praise and criticize....I win.

That may be, but we are both credible nonetheless.

As for people (me specificaly) being biased against you...you are right we are....you bring up non issues just to throw mud into the eye of an organisation you claim to like.

Being perceived as throwing mud into the eye of CAP is a result of the way I have presented my opinions and concerns, not my opinons and concerns themselves.

I believe CAP has a lot of potential, and that Brig Gen Courter is the best Nat'l CC since Brig Gen Anderson. 

I also continue to believe in CAP, which qualifies me as a saint because my introduction to CAP was one of hazing and abuse.  If you would like the whole story, please PM me and I will send it to you.

You got issues.....you've been kicked off Cadet Stuff...

Utterly false!  I chose to stop posting there, just like on military.com.  Go send baronet68 a PM and ask him about my membership status on Cadet Stuff.

..., stopped posting on military.com

Okay... what is your point, sir?

...and when you where there you talked trash about CAPTALK.

Which resulted from sentiments that did not last long.

Now you are back....and nothing has changed.

Sorry, but that's wrong.

I have changed the way in which I present my opinions and concern, which Pylon and I have agreed is the only thing I needed to change with regard to my conduct on CAPTalk.

Put your money where your mouth is...

Again, I will let those who actually know me in real life be the ultimate judge of that.

...join CAP and then make a difference.  Otherwise....just take it else where.

When I do return to CAP and make a tangible difference, much of the difference I will make will be the result of the information I have gathered from this site and elsewhere, regarding the issues present in CAP and how best to approach them.

Have you ever taken the time to consider that my postings on CAPTalk and elsewhere serve a greater purpose than just presenting opinons and concerns?


Enough thread derailing.  Anyone who wishes to PM me and continue the argument is more than welcome to do so.

[mikeylikey]

Anyone remember the CAP Officer overseas, who wore metal rank on both his service Dress Jacket and Flight CAP.  Other than the ribbons, he was impersonating an AF Officer.....and NHQ let that slip by into both the Volunteer MAG and on line.  

Someone at NHQ needs to take 3 seconds and look at the pics.  I am surprised the AF didn't say "ummm excuse me, what is this picture??"

[Eagle400]

Anyone remember the CAP Officer overseas, who wore metal rank on both his service Dress Jacket and Flight CAP.

Thanks for getting us back on track, sir.

I don't remember seeing metal rank insignia on his flight cap.  I only remember seeing it on the service dress jacket.  I could be wrong, though

Other than the ribbons, he was impersonating an AF Officer.....and NHQ let that slip by into both the Volunteer MAG and on line.

Pretty mind boggling, isin't it? 

So much for quality assurance. 

Someone at NHQ needs to take 3 seconds and look at the pics.

Or maybe three minutes (with the help of supervisors), considering the current method is clearly not effective.

I will bet you that the PA personnel at National who screen the pictures are not even members of CAP, much less aware of the current CAP uniform standards.  

I am surprised the AF didn't say "ummm excuse me, what is this picture??"

Considering the Air Force does not even take the time to verify which CAP command shield is current, that's not much of a stretch.

[jeders]

Considering the Air Force does not even take the time to verify which CAP command shield is current, that's not much of a stretch.

Actually that one was phased out in March '08 I believe, so at the time (Feb '08) it was still a legitimate patch.

To go back o the original issue -- squadron and wing public affairs officers should also be familiar enough with CAP uniform regulations to prevent any really bad uniform violations from getting published anywhere, much less sent to national.  However, as long as they catch the big mistakes, I think its inevitable that relatively small things like this will slip by them. 

Ya know, it is sad when squadron commanders and PAOs don't even bother looking at pictures or miss things because they don't know the regs. I think the real important thing to take away from this isn't so much that one guy wore a device that may or may not be authorized, it's that so many of our senior members have so little attention to detail and don't know the regs well enough.

That whole attention to detail thing is why I make sure that everyone is in proper uniform before a picture is taken, and that pictures where people aren't in proper uniform never get released to the public. Things like wearing a boonie cap in the field or when I got metal captains bars pinned on my BDUs just so my squadron commander would have something to pin on me during promotion. Even though there's a picture of it, it'll never be seen by the public. Also those bars came off about 3 seconds after I stepped away.

[alamrcn]

Some of you may have seen the image of a CAP lieutenant with a Schützenschnur on his Service Dress Uniform within a CAP news article on the national website, which was posted this week.

Wow, wouldn't have even noticed it had I not been looking for uniform issues. I would have noticed the four nice looking cadets in perfect uniforms in the forground and not much past that. I also didn't notice the dying furn in the back corner of the room during the "We Are The World" music video.

There is a Lt Col in the same wing, different group, that wears the same emblem as a pocket badge with his BDUs. It's pretty small and black on OD - you'd almost miss it in the cammo pattern if not right in front of him. He is also prior US Army, and wears a myriad of other Special Forces insignia. I don't think anyone has had the steel to questions him about it all in years... and lived!

-Ace

[RiverAux]

Personally, I get very suspicious of anyone wearing a "myriad of special forces insignia"....

[PHall]

Personally, I get very suspicious of anyone wearing a "myriad of special forces insignia"....

The badge in question is not a "special forces insignia". It's a markmanship badge, nothing more.

[RiverAux]

I was responding to the post with information on another person.

[afgeo4]

Many soldiers wear unauthorized items on their uniforms in combat. That doesn't take anything away from them as soldiers and it wouldn't be in good taste to comment on it.

Quite frankly, they have earned the right to do so; CAP members have not.

Sorry Pennsylvania Wing, but going on a SAR mission as a "CAP Ranger" does not count as combat.

Ditto with helping manage the Oshkosh Airshow as a Blue Beret.

If you'd like to criticize those members for wearing the uniform improperly, first join and wear the uniform properly. Otherwise, you haven't earned the right to criticize.

Pardon me for saying so, but I have worn the uniform for 8 years (9 if you count my year in ROTC) within my short life of 22 years.  I believe I have earned the right to provide both praise and criticism to those who wear the uniform, respectively.   

Having said that, we welcome constructive comments from you and all else on this forum.

Thank you for reassuring me that not all people on this site are biased against me, sir.

Well... think of it this way: You have proven with many of your well phrased comments that you base everything on your subjective opinion. You of course have such a right. The U.S. Constitution says so and we aren't about to change that. However, you also consistently fail to back up your opinions with concrete and objective evidence which at the least makes your opinions "loose" and at most, incredible. Given how you've chosen not to stick around in CAP for whatever reason and improve it, we find your criticism annoying in the least, but I suspect that it's exactly why you post it.

I believe you're seeking attention. So be it. I've dealt with whiny, dissatisfied, "cry baby" cadets and senior members before. Most of them quit and most of the organization is better for it. We value those who stay and work on changing the organization for the better not those who leave and "bark" at it from behind a fence.

I'm not biased against you. I don't now you. I'm biased against most, if not all of your opinions about CAP and the military.