Blue Beret and Hawk Mountain Patches

[mile_high1218]

I wish they would return the Blue Beret and Hawk Mountain patches to the right shoulder.  It isn't right for them to be placed on the left breast pocket with the rest of the patches.  When you become a Blue Beret or make it through Hawk Mountain you're considered one of the top notch cadets in the organization.  These are equivalent to our special forces, if there is such a thing in CAP.  I think that putting it down on the left pocket makes it less of an honor and obscures the respect that it actually deserves.

Sigh, this is right up there with them taking away the Blue Beret.  I remember back in the day when you were allowed to wear the beret as part of the regular uniform.  Then they decided to take it away.  I'm sorry but all of the uniforms that are now part of CAP are too much.  They need to keep it simple and follow the Air Force model.  We're a SEARCH AND RESCUE organization NOT a fashion show.

[_]

Uh oh, here we go again.  I hear Mods headed this way

[lordmonar]

We're a SEARCH AND RESCUE organization NOT a fashion show.

Then maybe we should eliminate the HMRC and NBB patches all together?

[arajca]

I remember dealing with the elitist attitudes of the blue beret wearers. They were bad for morale and more than one sqdn commander forbade wearing berets at their unit.

As for the location of the patch, it's the same as all the other NCSA's - which is what both hawk and nbb are. Unless you're in PAWG, then you wear the hawk patch on the right shoulder in place of the wing patch. I ask you which is more important - the American flag or the eight-ball?

A significant part of the reason for the variety of uniforms we have came from the Air Force directives. If the AF hadn't specified that those who do not meet the AF physique cannot wear the AF uniforms, we wouldn't have the plethora of choices today. True, the selction has expanded recently, but without the AF directive, the issue wouldn't have come up.

We are not a search and rescue organization, we are a military auxiliary with THREE missions, only ONE of which is partially encompassed by 'search and rescue'. Folks who disregard the rest of the Emergency Services mission do a significant disservice to Civil Air Patrol. It is just as easy to say we a youth organization or an aviation organization. All of these are merely parts of the total organization.

[JC004]

is this some kind of trap?

[M.S.]

is this some kind of trap?

you need this ---

[W3ZR]

as a n00b myself I feel unqualified to post this....

but I will post it anyway !

[sarflyer]

The fact that you attend a NSCA called Blue Beret or PAWG Ranger School doesn't raise you up above others who have attended equally good schools such as NESA,  regional sar schools or some of the local state programs.

I have enormous respect for both schools but the attitude of some returning members leaves much to be desired.  The patches are appropriatly placed on the pocket and should stay there.  The American Flag is much more appropriate for that location than any school patch.

[mile_high1218]

What I meant by SAR was all of Emergency Services.  Anyway, I'm not saying that the American flag isn't important but it's a stated fact that we're the Civil Air Patrol the Auxiliary of the United States Air Force.  We never had it on our uniform when I was a cadet and I don't like the fact that it's reversed.  I'm also not placing anymore, or less, prestige on any other National activity; however, the placement of these patches were designed to go on the shoulder area of the BDU uniform. 

The attitude that people convey just because they have this or that activity is a personal issue.  If they believe themselves to be more important than someone else just because they have a beret or a particular patch is ignorant.  We are all equal in this organization; however, some of us have more responsibility than others.  If you decide to be an egotist just because you're an NBB or Hawk Mtn. member then a lot of people are going to blow you off, which is appropriate.  The leaders that should be followed are those that acknowledge that they have knowledge in a particular field and wait for the appropriate time to share it.  They shouldn't rub it in the face of others.  Let the uniform and the visual representation of the patches and/or ribbons do the talking for you. 

[Stonewall]

Let the uniform and the visual representation of the patches and/or ribbons do the talking for you. 

I guess I've been teaching cadets wrong for years then.  I always taught cadets that actions speak louder than words, and patches and berets for that matter.

In your first post you said that HMRS and NBB are "the special forces" of CAP?  Really?  Which CAP regulation or manual is that in?  And you talk about how an elitist attitude is bad for business, yet you say it yourself that people who attend such activities are in fact "special".

You should do a seach on CAP Talk and head over to Cadet Stuff to see just how many debates, locked threads, and page after page discussions we've hashed out about such topics as berets, elite CAP schools, Hawk Mountain, Blue Beret, etc.  I think you'd spend a full day or two doing a lot of reading, and perhaps changing your mind; hopefully for the better.

[mile_high1218]

Actions will always speak louder than words but when I see the patch on any uniform then I know that that person is someone that is knowledgeable in that field.  If it's an NBB patch then I know that when he/she tells me about flight line safety and/or something of that nature then I need to listen.

[JayT]

Actions will always speak louder than words but when I see the patch on any uniform then I know that that person is someone that is knowledgeable in that field.  If it's an NBB patch then I know that when he/she tells me about flight line safety and/or something of that nature then I need to listen.

Then you're an idiot.

If you listern to someone soley based on the patch they wear, then you deserve anything that comes to you.

[mile_high1218]

Special forces in that they equip you with special training that are implemented and put in place under the most extreme conditions.  You are prepared to do the job and do it well.  The attitude conveyed on me about NBB and Hawk Mtn. while I was a cadet was of that of being 'the best of the best'.  I, along with many others even in my current squadron, feel this way.

[Stonewall]

Have you been to Hawk and NBB?

With your mindset, any school that teaches something is "special".  No, they're just schools and/or activities. 

Think about it this way.  If some schools in the UNITED STATES MILITARY are taught at a junior and high school level, then exactly what level are courses taught in CAP where junior and senior high school students attend?

Look, I'm not knocking, nor will I ever, knock the training anyone recieves at any CAP activity.  But for the most part you're there for the experience; to grow and learn.  But by no means is any activity, to include the most physically demanding like PJOC, do they prepare you to be a professional leader in Search and Rescue.  In fact, I would argue that NESA's Ground Team training does more of that than any other activity in CAP because they actually qualify you to a National (CAP) standard.

Would you, as a 26 year old senior member, follow a 14 year old graduate of Hawk Mountain on a search across the Shenandoah Mountains?  Or allow a 15 year old who was given a blue beret for attending NBB entrust that cadet to be in charge of flight line operations?  Cadets are awesome, I love'em.  I get more out of seeing a young cadet grow into a man or woman and head off to West Point, college or becoming a PJ, but regardless of what activity they attend, at 15, 16 or even 17, they are not elite, nor are they "professionals".  They may act mature and professional, but they are not paid experts in any sense.

[mikeylikey]

SO  NBB prepares you for what?  Staffing an Airshow?  Hawk prepares you for what?  Killing bunny rabbits?

The original poster has contradicted himself twice in his posts, thus I think this is a setup from a disgruntled HAWK grad who is not allowed to wear their orange and pink web-belt.  

You cited Air Force uniforms.  Have you ever SEEN a person in an Air Force Uniform.  Patches are absolutely worn on the pockets in BDU's.  

Cadet Special Activity Patches are to be worn on the freaking pocket.  It is a rule.  Just because one misguided wing (PAWG) decides to circumvent the written rules does not mean it is right, and that everyone should do it.

Hawk is also no where near equatable to any type of Special Forces training.  It is also nowhere near equatable to Ranger training in the Army.  (I think that may be where you are headed next from the predictable drift of your posts).

I suggest you take your patches and sew them on the correct spot on your uniform while you can, because I have it from a good source that when AF approves the ABU for CAP wear, we will be permitted to wear name and branch tapes, pilot or GT badges and that is it.  We will follow AF guidance very strictly with the new uniform when it comes out, and we can thank people like you who "demand we follow AF guidance".

Man........Mikey tried but could only convince two out of five cadets from his local SQD not to attend HAWK.  We had such a good track record of not sending cadets to Hawk for like 10 years.  Then they go off to ENC last year, see the Hawk bling and demand to go.    

[notaNCO forever]

 First of it's a honor to wear the American flag patch that is about a bilion times more important then any NCSA and Hawk and NBB are definatley not the most important NCSA's. If your looking at it from a " there like the special forces of CAP" that is a complete insult to NESA and especially PJOC who has actuall PJ's teaching the school.

[mikeylikey]

If your looking at it from a " there like the special forces of CAP" that is a complete insult to NESA and especially PJOC who has actuall PJ's teaching the school.

Well said!

[Eclipse]

To equate any CAP activity, no matter how "extreme" with military ranger, seal, or other special forces training, or even BMT (i.e. encampments) isn't only insulting to the service you're comparing it to, it means you have a fundamental misunderstanding of both sides of the comparison.

[mikeylikey]

^ It is because that is what is drilled into attendees heads at these schools.  "This is the most high speed school in CAP, its like Ranger School.....blah blah blah".

I honestly think some attendees just want more bling to wear.  They are upset that some Wings wear patches on the shoulder (illegally) instead of on the pocket.  They equate patches on shoulders with military combat patches. 

[notaNCO forever]

 If any part of my post my it look like I thought NCSA's were even close to any type of military program that is not what I meant.