RV-10 down in Texas

[Major Carrales]

Just to be clear, I'm not critisizing Texas here, just commenting on the general reluctance to ask for support.  Frankly, I would have been surprised if Texas needed help given their resources. 

This crash took place in Central Texas.  There were many "Layers" of Texas WING CAP personnel to draw on before going out of WING.

I'm sure that some of Rhode Island and Alaska Wing pilots could have been asked, however, all CAP is basically local and the nature of this crash (again, Central Texas and near some of Group III Texas Wing's most active units...KUDOS to David Odgen who is a regular here and who I plan to congratulate in person at the Wing Conference!!!) out of State Resources would have been a waste.

[DNall]

Texas does have a lot of resources, but they are spread out over a very large area. For a redcap, we really do need all hands & a lot of times that isn't going to be enough.

For this one, we did draw from all over. The GTs were from Brownsville, Dallas, Austin, San Antonio, and Houston (2). The aircrews were from all over. And the entire command staff was from Houston.

The plan we created needed 10-15 planes with 2 crews (3-person) per plane, every day. That wouldn't have been possible past the first day given the number that were down for maint or close to it. We would also end us very short of crews. We weren't going to be able to sustain GT numbers past a couple days either. Command staff was great, but we didn't have replacements avail for anyone but the IC, and we needed some decent MSAs real bad.

[flynd94]

DNall, is correct.  I was the replacement IC and, getting resources to sustain a long term search was going to be an issue.

PS-DNall are you going to Wing Conf?  I might, if I do,I will have your AFRCC Inland SAR Patch for you.  That way you can have a little more respect.

[RiverAux]

Just to be clear, I'm not critisizing Texas here, just commenting on the general reluctance to ask for support.  Frankly, I would have been surprised if Texas needed help given their resources. 

This crash took place in Central Texas.  There were many "Layers" of Texas WING CAP personnel to draw on before going out of WING.

I'm sure that some of Rhode Island and Alaska Wing pilots could have been asked, however, all CAP is basically local and the nature of this crash (again, Central Texas and near some of Group III Texas Wing's most active units...KUDOS to David Odgen who is a regular here and who I plan to congratulate in person at the Wing Conference!!!) out of State Resources would have been a waste.

Geez, I said I wasn't commenting on Texas, but the overall reluctance of CAP members in many Wings to call on out-of-state resources.  By implying that I was suggesting that RI and AK planes come help are you therfore denying that this is not actually a issue in CAP?  Or are you suggesting that the people in TX wouldn't have realized that there were other states closer than those two that could have been available (if necessary) 

[Nomex Maximus]

Texas does have a lot of resources, but they are spread out over a very large area. For a redcap, we really do need all hands & a lot of times that isn't going to be enough.

For this one, we did draw from all over. The GTs were from Brownsville, Dallas, Austin, San Antonio, and Houston (2). The aircrews were from all over. And the entire command staff was from Houston.

The plan we created needed 10-15 planes with 2 crews (3-person) per plane, every day. That wouldn't have been possible past the first day given the number that were down for maint or close to it. We would also end us very short of crews. We weren't going to be able to sustain GT numbers past a couple days either. Command staff was great, but we didn't have replacements avail for anyone but the IC, and we needed some decent MSAs real bad.

Now, being new to CAP, and out of curiosity, if I had found a way down to Texas from Michigan, would I have been able to join in the effort? Or would I just be in the way of the preferred Texas crews? And if I were able to join in, who would I have contacted? The IC?

It so happens that coming out that way would have been a waste of time since you found the plane so quickly. Something else for me to consider before making a trip.

[RiverAux]

It is never a good idea to self deploy to a mission and if you did, you would most likely be sent home.  Generally, if a Wing needs help it requests whole ground teams or aircrews (with planes).  So, the best thing to do is make your availability known to your commander and wait for a call. 

[DNall]

Now, being new to CAP, and out of curiosity, if I had found a way down to Texas from Michigan, would I have been able to join in the effort? Or would I just be in the way of the preferred Texas crews? And if I were able to join in, who would I have contacted? The IC?

I don't want to encourage people to self-deploy. That's not really a good idea. You don't know what's going on tactically in the short/long-term, or strategically in terms of resource mgmt for a sustained effort & making sure other areas of the country are still mission ready.

That said, there's no such thing as "preferred Texas crews," and we would have put you right to work in what you're qualified to do. The Wg-wide email that went out had GBD & AOBD numbers on it to request authorization to deploy (including inbound sortie). If we'd gone beyond the Wg, the contacts would have been managed outside the staff.

Geez, I said I wasn't commenting on Texas, but the overall reluctance of CAP members in many Wings to call on out-of-state resources. 

I haven't seen that to be a problem in my CAP career. The standard & reasonable first reaction is going to make sure you're fully using your own Wg resources before you tap outside. That's what we got & it's completely reasonable. In a few cases that may be bringing in a plane from the other side of the state versus just across the border. As long as that doesn't effect the search, I don't care. That's just the nature of how resources are assigned.

I'm not trying to have a larger discussion on that point though. I posted that debrief for a couple reasons. It did let yall know what happened, but it was also a way for me to personally assemble & decompress the info, and also serves as an AAR to the rest of my wing (which some of yall might also take lessons from).

That AAR item is important. If I were in charge of fleet mgmt, I might want to take a look at how we do things so it doesn't effect mission readiness. If I were a pilot, I might evaluate how much gear I need to carry & maybe I'd start bringing along scanner/observer trainees on my prof flights so we get some more people avail & I get used to loading & crew dynamics for a three man crew. Maybe Id' start looking at my GTs & realize there aren't enough, they need many more adults involved int hat area, and GTs need to be able to line search through terrain more than half a mile & have some gear. Maybe I'd be interested in my call-out/alert procedures, responsiveness, and how long it takes. Maybe I'd like to practice some of that. Maybe I'd like to run a WAX (exercise) at a third party airfield where there aren't any CAP facilities. Maybe I'd like to more heavily involve local & state LE/fire/EMS (particularly on comm). Maybe I'd like to more heavily involve PIOs in our practice, simulate or involve some media, and get some more qual'd people. etc, etc...

We were lucky on this one. I don't want that success to dismiss the many lessons we can take from the experience. I want people to look at what happened & adjust what they're doing to make us better. I don't want the day to come when there is someone alive in a field out there waiting for us & we don't get the job done because we didn't learn enough from our past experiences & training.

PS-DNall are you going to Wing Conf?  I might, if I do,I will have your AFRCC Inland SAR Patch for you.  That way you can have a little more respect.

Unfortunately I'll be at drill in Bastrop. I've already been chastised for missing this one. I'll catch up with you at some point though. You're at Delta right? I can swing up there to a meeting sometime.

[RiverAux]

If I were in charge of fleet mgmt, I might want to take a look at how we do things so it doesn't effect mission readiness.

Always a good idea.  Unfortunately, this is something that would actually be harder for a Wing like TX with many planes since even smaller Wings have trouble balancing when to take planes out for maintenance and sometimes despite your best efforts you can get in a situation when you've got a lot of 100 hours or annuals due at the same time.

Heck, you have to keep your eyes open to make sure some unit doesn't "discover" the night before the SAREX (that has been scheduled for months) that they've only got a couple of hours left on the plane before required maintenance. 

[DNall]

Actually, I'd say it's easier for Texas cause we have control of adequate resources for the mission. If I'm a wing with half a dozen planes then I know I automatically have to go outside for help, and I got no control over what they're doing with their resources.