Large Van Passenger Restrictions

[fireplug]

ATTN: LG/T's. Does your wing have a policy of restricting pax in 12- and 15-passenger vans to only 10 people, including the driver? Thanks.

[mikeylikey]

If it can carry 12 or 15 passangers......why wouldn't you carry 12 or 15 passangers?

The weight difference between ten  100 pound cadets and twelve 100 pound cadets is 200 pounds.  The rollover probability of adding 200 pounds is null. 

Redistributing the weight inside the van before driving will help with roll-over more than limiting passangers. 

Why did you ask this question?  Does your Wing have a Safety Officer that does not even have a CAP License, never been in a CAP van, but yet makes safety decisions without any supporting info too?

[arajca]

Not to my knowledge and my unit has a 15-pax van. The only times we don't carry a full load is:
1. there isn't a full load.
or
2. there is too much gear for a full load.

[mynetdude]

concerning gear, IMHO we should be utilizing towable covered box trailers to haul gear.  Sorry, but I'm all for using maximized space rather than having to tell a cadet or two or three that they can't go because we have too much gear.  Lucky for us, we have a 2nd van that is much smaller, we've used that van to haul the gear.

I have in the past offered to haul gear only and IMHO I don't think hauling gear requires the pov to be approved by wing or be inspected by wing.  The only time a pov AFAIK needs to be approved by wing/inspected is when A) you are going to transport cadets to activities when no other means of being able to use CAP vehicles or B) you are going to use your pov in support of an AFAM or CAP funded mission.

Otherwise using a POV to tow or haul gear within as long as within reason the vehicle should obviously be insured should anything happen to you, the vehicle and the gear inside it or being towed.

Expense is another matter... that is always a #1 topic to consider when looking at how to manage getting cadets and gear moved at once.

[Ned]

Some states, like California, have laws that restrict the number of passengers and/or types of vehicle that a regular operator's license can carry/operate.

So be sure to check local laws.

Ned Lee
Former Legal Officer

[JohnKachenmeister]

Some states define a "Bus" as any vehicle equipped to carry more than 9 passengers.  If you are driving a bus, you may need a CDL.  Also, if it is EQUIPPED for more than 9 people, the number of persons actually carried makes no difference.  A bus is a bus even when empty.  Make sure you come to a complete stop at all railroad grade crossings!

John Kachenmeister
Former Traffic Cop

[FW]

Our vehicle accident statistics this Fiscal Year have shown a substantial increase from previous years.  The CAP/SE thinks this might be due to the large number of 15 pass. vans in our fleet.  If this is true, we may need to be properly trained in driving these things around before we get behind the wheel.  

They do drive differently than miatas.

[arajca]

Some states define a "Bus" as any vehicle equipped to carry more than 9 passengers.  If you are driving a bus, you may need a CDL.  Also, if it is EQUIPPED for more than 9 people, the number of persons actually carried makes no difference.  A bus is a bus even when empty.  Make sure you come to a complete stop at all railroad grade crossings!

John Kachenmeister
Former Traffic Cop

I've never heard of that. 15 pass+driver (16 total) is the CDL definition I've heard of in several states. The reason for the 16 total was there are too many privately owned 15 pax vans to require every driver to have a cdl.

I was a CDL examiner for several years, until I gave it up last year.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Ohio defined a "Bus" as a vehicle capable of holding more than 9 pax (excluding the driver) but CDL's were not required for vans. 

Full stops at grade crossings were, though.

[Frenchie]

In Texas, if the vehicle is designed to carry > 15 pax, you need a CDL.  CAP may have other requirements based on insurance or safety, but this is just a guess.

Not a lawyer, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.

[sardak]

As used in the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS) 49 CFR 571.3:
"Bus means a motor vehicle with motive power, except a trailer, designed for carrying more than 10 persons."  Because of this definition, many safety laws that apply to cars and light trucks don't apply to 15 passenger vans.

The original 10 person question probably is a result of studies by the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) and National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) on 15 pax van rollovers.  NTSB found that 15 pax vans with 10 to 15 passengers, when involved in accidents, rolled over in 85% of them but vans carrying 5 or less pax rolled over in "only" 28% of accidents.  The NHTSA study found that vans with 10 or more  pax rolled over 3 times as often as vans with less than 10 occupants.
NHTSA 15 Passenger Van Reports
NTSB 15 Passenger Van Report
NTSB 15 Passenger Van Safety Alert

Both NTSB and NHTSA published safety recommendations on 15 passenger vans.  Most but not all of these have been  included in CAPR 77-1.  I thought CAP had a letter about van safety but I couldn't find one.  77-1 defines a bus as a vehicle which can carry 16 or more passengers.

Federal law (49USC30125) prohibits the sale of 15-passenger vans for the school-related transport of high school age and younger students.

Mike

[mynetdude]

Also something someone didn't point out is that the Ford E/Econoliner vans have a higher rollover rate than the Chevy version of the 15 passenger vans. I am pretty sure I read somewhere in a memo/letter from CAP stating this... in all cases you should take turns slower and make sure to make your turns just alittle wider.

[Frenchie]

Also something someone didn't point out is that the Ford E/Econoliner vans have a higher rollover rate than the Chevy version of the 15 passenger vans. I am pretty sure I read somewhere in a memo/letter from CAP stating this... in all cases you should take turns slower and make sure to make your turns just alittle wider.

Another thing along these lines is to check tire pressure.  Tire pressure should always be set to the value specified by the owner's manual or it usually can be found on the driver's door jam.  It's important to use these values and not what's on the tire or what someone thinks the tire pressure should be.  Vehicles are tested for rollover and the vehicle manufacturer specifies the optimum tire pressure.  Too much pressure and the vehicle becomes unstable and more likely to roll over.  Too little pressure and the tire can more likely blow out or hydroplane and both conditions can lead to rollover.  Tire pressure is important on any vehicle, but is critical on SUVs or vans because of their inherent instability and high center of gravity.

[mynetdude]

Also something someone didn't point out is that the Ford E/Econoliner vans have a higher rollover rate than the Chevy version of the 15 passenger vans. I am pretty sure I read somewhere in a memo/letter from CAP stating this... in all cases you should take turns slower and make sure to make your turns just alittle wider.

Another thing along these lines is to check tire pressure.  Tire pressure should always be set to the value specified by the owner's manual or it usually can be found on the driver's door jam.  It's important to use these values and not what's on the tire or what someone thinks the tire pressure should be.  Vehicles are tested for rollover and the vehicle manufacturer specifies the optimum tire pressure.  Too much pressure and the vehicle becomes unstable and more likely to roll over.  Too little pressure and the tire can more likely blow out or hydroplane and both conditions can lead to rollover.  Tire pressure is important on any vehicle, but is critical on SUVs or vans because of their inherent instability and high center of gravity.

Ah good point

[sardak]

Tire pressure is one of the biggest factors mentioned in the government reports, and is highlighted in both groups' recommendations to reduce the problem.  CAPR 77-1 doesn't emphasize this.

Mike

[mynetdude]

Tire pressure is one of the biggest factors mentioned in the government reports, and is highlighted in both groups' recommendations to reduce the problem.  CAPR 77-1 doesn't emphasize this.

Mike

It SHOULD then...

[floridacyclist]

Using a trailer to tow the gear will not only help with room inside, but with weight distribution inside the van as well. Taking the weight off the van's rear axle and putting it on it's own set of wheels will reduce the tendency for the tail to wag the dog, which is what happens with the Ford vans. We're looking for a 4-seat high-wing airplane fuselage with a straight back (no rear windshield) to make a utility trailer / rolling billboard out of. If nothing else, my comm trailer would work great as a light-duty cargo trailer once it's done, but we'd have to be careful not to overdo it as it is designed with minimum gross weight in mind for ease of towing; aluminum frame and fiberglass-covered styrofoam sides.

In short, when Ford lengthened their vans, they added the extra space behind the rear axle, increasing the rear overhang and leverage, Chevy and Dodge added the weight between the axles, not only decreasing the leverage that the extra weight had on the rest of the vehicle, but increasing the stability via a longer wheelbase.

[mynetdude]

Using a trailer to tow the gear will not only help with room inside, but with weight distribution inside the van as well. Taking the weight off the van's rear axle and putting it on it's own set of wheels will reduce the tendency for the tail to wag the dog, which is what happens with the Ford vans. We're looking for a 4-seat high-wing airplane fuselage with a straight back (no rear windshield) to make a utility trailer / rolling billboard out of. If nothing else, my comm trailer would work great as a light-duty cargo trailer once it's done, but we'd have to be careful not to overdo it as it is designed with minimum gross weight in mind for ease of towing; aluminum frame and fiberglass-covered styrofoam sides.

In short, when Ford lengthened their vans, they added the extra space behind the rear axle, increasing the rear overhang and leverage, Chevy and Dodge added the weight between the axles, not only decreasing the leverage that the extra weight had on the rest of the vehicle, but increasing the stability via a longer wheelbase.

haven't seen any single engine aircraft fuselage with no rear window.  Though having one as a small utility/cargo trailer would be kinda neat... gotta cut those wings off and all that .  Though the advantage of having alittle bit of wing left on would be you could stick your flagpoles or whatnot in them and store it there (provided the wing has been cleaned out and such).

[JohnKachenmeister]

And when you are not using it as a trailer you can set it up as a search target.

Cessna 172's built before (I think) 1963 had no rear windows.

Cessna 150's used to not only have a rear window, but a rear-view mirror.  That was useful if a jet was signalling to pass, I guess.  Or maybe while backing?

[mynetdude]

lolz a jet signaling to pass... too funny thats a laugh..

I have seen countless photos of C172/182s in front of various jets while taxiing, its a HUGE difference.  Its amazing the folks piloting the jets can see them even!