Renewal or not?

[flyboy]

Time has come for me to renew my CAP membership for the eleventh time.  When I think about renewal I find that I really don't want to do it anymore.  I guess that I could renew simply to preserve my rank in the event that my feelings change, but that doesn't really seem right to me.

During my CAP career I've worn many hats, including command, group participation, and even cadet programs.  There have been some good experiences, but there has been a constant and ever increasing sense of disappointment.  I've gotten to the point where I simply don't believe promises made to me by those in "command" because my experience has been that more often than not, those promises are broken.  The political in-fighting among members at all levels and all to frequent public scandals leave me with feeling sickened.   I find it impossible to get motivated to train when my unit gets called out on one mission every year or so, and that mission is simply to turn off an errant ELT.   In my eleven years in CAP my unit has never been involved in anything that even comes close to lifesaving.  I joined CAP with the hope that I could use my aviation skills turn kids onto aviation, but I've never even been able to get a check ride despite being an experienced pilot.   I learned early on that this wasn't going to happen for me.  I called over a dozen check pilots to try and arrange a check ride, only two ever returned my calls.  Then given the limits of my work schedule and their availability, and my need to drive a minimum of 200 miles to meet with a pilot I quickly learned that this wasn't a realistic option for me. Nevertheless, Cadet Programs has always been the thing that's kept me in the organization, but I see fewer cadets these days and I find that working with cadets has become increasingly political and hazardous to one's reputation. I've seen fellow officers defamed, and even accused of "cadet protection" violations for things that simply don't even come close such as yelling at a cadet to avoid a safety hazard.   In other instances I see our officers viciously going after each other based upon either entirely bogus or at best minimal regulatory violations.  One needs only read the postings in this website to realize how self-righteous and mean-spirited some of our fellow officers are at times.  I find that more and more, I simply don't want to be around those types of people.

Then I think about the other things I can do with my time.  My religious organization has many uses for my time, and they don't require a myriad of certifications (all requiring multiple trips out of town) for me to help out.  There are a number of other community groups where I can be involved and actually do something, rather than endlessly train for the mission that never comes. 

When I think about these things, my disappointment with CAP, the more effective use of my time and resources in other organizations, and I'm left wondering why should I continue with CAP?   Maybe I'm just burned-out or have simply done what I'm going to do in CAP and it's time for me to move on and the change is in me and not in CAP.  I apologize if I offend anyone, but the folks here are the leaders or future leaders of CAP and I can't believe that I'm the only member who is or has experienced these feelings.

[SoCalCAPOfficer]

Flyboy, I do not know where you are located, that your unit would only have the opportunity to respond to one ELT in a year.  I understand that you came into CAP to fly and even though you did not get that opportunity, you have given of yourself in other ways over the years.  You may just be burned out.  However, that is no reason to leave the organization.  You may just need a change.  Maybe you still need to fly.

If by any chance you are in the Southern California area, send me a PM and I can make sure you get a Form 5 checkride within a reasonable amount of time.   I have 2 CAP checkpilots in my unit that love to give Form 5's and they are happy to accommodate anyone who needs there help.

So if you live close and still would like to complete what you wished to do years ago, let me know.

[BillB]

Flyboy is 100% on target. Not only his renewal, but the decreasing retention rate in CAP. The political in-fighting is so rampant that mebers throughout the country are not renewing. And this applis not only to seniors, but to cadets. If you think cadets don't see the bickering, in-fighting and lose interest in the program, think again.
More often than not, a Squadron will be called for many ELT searches by Wing, while other squadrons are ignored. An example of the "good-old-boy" network that seems to be throughout CAP.
But there is a reverse side to this. If there are any cadets in the squadron, that area should be the first priority. While there may be fewer cadets, a good recruiting program will bring in new cadets. Many units train for support of local agencies, that may be an avenue for your Squadron to consider. Assistance to the Red Cross, County Emergency Management is easy to set up and there are already MOUs in place for that. If your Commander contacts the Wing Director of Operation and tells him you've been trying to get a form 5 ride for X number of months, you'll find help from Wing.

[Eclipse]

Flyboy is 100% on target. Not only his renewal, but the decreasing retention rate in CAP. The political in-fighting is so rampant that members throughout the country are not renewing. And this applis not only to seniors, but to cadets. If you think cadets don't see the bickering, in-fighting and lose interest in the program, think again. 

Sweeping statements like these, based on opinion, and contrary to the facts, don't do anything but perpetuate the problem.

If anything, the removal of HWSRN has quieted the political nonsense, and while the purges continue, we've obviously turned a corner (not that most politics above the Group level mean much to a local unit anyway).  Membership has also appeared to stabilize in the last 6 months or so, but in many states it is at the static level its been for a decade.

Flyboy, if your batteries are dry, take some time away from CAP.  It isn't good for either side when a volunteer feels put-upon or really isn't interested in playing anymore.

If you have grade to preserve, I would suggest you drop to patron and maintain your membership.

Bottom line, if the ROI on your valuable time is not at least equal, its time to move on.

[mikeylikey]

Don't renew!

[bosshawk]

Flyboy: I, too, share your frustration at the politics and less than efficient handling of personnel in CAP.  I just renewed for year 16 and I have gone through your agony at least 15 times.  This time I renewed on the very last day of the month that my membership was valid: really was torn about it.

Like SoCalOfficer, I can get you a Form 5 arranged.  I, too, live in CA, but in central CA.

When I moved up to the Wing Staff, I did so knowing very well that the politics were nasty and unforgiving: probably more so than any politics in a Squadron could ever be.  With as many years as I had in the military, I pretty much let politics bounce off of my back without compromising my ethics and values.  If I see something that is worthwhile, I'll fight for it and I find that I often prevail.

Like someone before me said, if you really want to take a break, please do so.  Become a patron or simply renew and don't participate, so that you can hold what you have earned so far.

CAP is a hobby, not a vocation.  We can all unvolunteer just as rapidly as we volunteered.  Whenever someone tries to get on my case, I simply quote that statement.

Good luck and I am sure that you will do the right thing for the important person: YOU.  Thanks for sharing your thoughts with us.

[Stonewall]

For the past 5 years I've debated about renewal.  I have also tried and tried again to get back into it.  Compared to my experiences 10 years prior, there is a big difference.  Not just administratively, but operationally and that of membership (personnel).   I can't bribe cadets to do much more than color guard or take tests.  Many seniors are all about the flying or encouraging the cadets to study hard for their tests and get that promotion.

I understand this is just my individual experience and CAP varies from city to city, wing to wing.  But I can't bring myself to stay in because it's going great out in CAWG.  It has to be thriving where I am.  The program as a whole has to motivate me to want to be a part of it.  I have been late in my renewal every year for the past 5 years as I contemplate renewing or not.  I've shown back to meetings for a few weeks and then stop going again. 

I recently tried to find a spark of life in CAP a couple months ago and couldn't bring myself to fall in love again.  I think my retirement paperwork will be submitted this year.

[RiverAux]

Maybe the program does stink where you're at, and if that is the case, move on to something else.  Happily, I'm not in that place.

While this isn't directed at your unit since I don't know where you're at, but when I hear people complaining about lack of missions, my first thought is, "when was the last time your squadron commander met with the local sheriff and the local emergency manager?"  Unless you happen to be on one of the coasts which has more ELT missions than they can handle, you are most likely not going to get very many ELT or airplane search missions and it is up to your local squadron and wing to generate your own missions by having great relationships with our counterparts in local and state governments.  There are more than enough lost person cases to keep everyone in the woods. 

[Ricochet13]

Time has come for me to renew my CAP membership for the eleventh time.  When I think about renewal I find that I really don't want to do it anymore.  I guess that I could renew simply to preserve my rank in the event that my feelings change, but that doesn't really seem right to me.

I replied to you in an email.  And, contrary to what some might say, don't quit yet.  The questions and doubts you expressed have validity and need to be asked each time any of us commit time, energy, and money to the organization.  Nothing wrong with asking the questions.

[Stonewall]

Maybe the program does stink where you're at, and if that is the case, move on to something else.  Happily, I'm not in that place.

While this isn't directed at your unit since I don't know where you're at, but when I hear people complaining about lack of missions, my first thought is, "when was the last time your squadron commander met with the local sheriff and the local emergency manager?"  Unless you happen to be on one of the coasts which has more ELT missions than they can handle, you are most likely not going to get very many ELT or airplane search missions and it is up to your local squadron and wing to generate your own missions by having great relationships with our counterparts in local and state governments.  There are more than enough lost person cases to keep everyone in the woods. 

I'm on a coast.  In fact, my squadron was one of the first coastal patrol squadrons back in the day.  Today, my squadron flies more missions than most wings and some regions.  My squadron commander (up until a month ago) is an AFRES Colonel (group commander) and a police officer for the very large police department (we're the largest city in CONUS).  If I were an active flier, I'd be happy as a pig in mud.  But while I'm an observer, my love for CAP goes with the Cadet Program with ground ES being a close second.  Unlike many adults in CAP, I didn't join CAP solely for ES, but for a combination of all three missions.

Kids across the board are not the same as they were 8 to 10 years ago.  That's normal.  But it has changed to the point where it isn't fun for me.  I keep trying and trying again, but I'm stubborn and think something will change over a 4 to 6 month period.  Sadly I am wrong.

I do know what it's like to be in a hoppin'-n-poppin' squadron and wing.  Overall, FLWG is one of the largest and most active in ES, mostly air.  But that's not my forte.  Sucks to be me, no worries.  I've got my day job (really a night job) as a cop, the air guard, 3 surfboards, lots of fishing poles and a great family.  Just kind of blows to have spent so much time, money and effort into a program that I used to live for, but in the past 5 years has disappointed me more than anything.  We all have our reasons for not renewing and retiring.  I don't regret my time in CAP, I only wish the good times could have lasted.

[JohnKachenmeister]

You guys are depressing me!

I just renewed.  Not that I am not also frustrated and disappointed, but I've got two things going for me:

1.  I'm in a great Group.  Good people, lots of activity, lots of training, and just a bit of an attitude.

2.  I go back to the early 1960's in this organization.  I am hoping that we are just going through a phase, and eventually this "Corporate mentality" will be exterminated.  Then we can get back to doing what CAP was created for, and can do it without a bunch of barracks lawyers telling me that wearing a patch that says "US Air Force Auxiliary" will violate a law that they have never actually read.

[Stonewall]

I am hoping that we are just going through a phase, and eventually this "Corporate mentality" will be exterminated. 

You and me both.  However, I said this back in the mid-90s after the initial change to the corporate ways of doing things.  I personally noticed a physical change in CAP back then.  At first I was supportive but hesitant.  After a couple years, I regretted those initial feelings. 

I think the Air Force is trying to re-militarize itself, if that makes sense.  I'm hoping CAP will do the same.

[flyboy]

I appreciate all the comments and suggestion to my post. 

I often hear that people believe that CAP is better off being more military, but I wonder if that's really the problem and/or solution.  After all, we don't have the large population of veterans that prior generations had, and CAP really doesn't seem to provide much in the way of military training.  I actually think that the problem is a lack of mission.  ELTs are going away.  Cadets don't seem as awed by aviation as they used to be.  Kids in general are much more sedentary than we used to be.  I never have figured out how to measure success in aerospace education.

[Capt Rivera]

if it helps... i just renewed... im curious, where are you? not so we can bash the region/wing/sqd... but maybe someone here can help?

[DrJbdm]

I have gone back and forth for a few years on rather to renew or not and for a few years I left CAP because it seemed to suffer a lot from the anti military mindset of our leaders and it gets worse every year.

  I continue to renew every year now for the flying, it took a few years to gain the flight time I needed to fly for CAP, now I am a MP, and also do ROTC o-flights. If the flying was to ever go away then I would probably follow along with it after a period of time. CAP saves me thousands of dollars a year in flying, I get to maintain great currency and have fun flying with friends at the same time. In fact CAP is the only way I can keep flying, I just could not afford to spend a few hundred dollars a month to maintain currency without CAP.

  Everyone's interest is different, some will stay and some will not. CAP is broken, and it has been for a very long time and no one in command has really noticed or done much to really address the problem, bandaids will not cure this disease. We need a complete rebuild or I fear we will become irrelevant as things change.

[Gunner C]

I renewed day before yesterday.  Part of me said "It's time to do it again."  Another part asked "Why am I doing this to myself again?"

I love the Civil Air Patrol.  I owe the organization a great deal.  I was a successful NCO and officer because of the training I got as a cadet.  I have had the opportunity to conduct some pretty interesting air operations since I came back in.  But I'm also tired of the new mentality that permiates through the force - not all, not a majority, but a vocal minority who tries to move CAP away from what it was in the 50s, 60s, and 70s - a military-styled organization that trains cadets, conducts missions, and is a part of the Air Force.

I've grown tired of poor leadership.  I've grown tired of watching friends who are fine leaders who are serving under untrained politicians.  Case in point - a good friend of mine served under a region commander as a chief of staff.  The region CC (who has only been in CAP for 9 years) had absolutely no idea of how to use a staff.  My friend tried to direct the staff to support the region plan, but alas, there was no plan.  When he actually wrote a program to develop a plan, it was ignored by region CC.  The CC hauled off and did some shady stuff (not sure exactly what).  My friend brought it to light and was fired along with another officer who reported it. The commander is still there. I've known him since we were cadets together in Alaska - he's a seasoned officer who was himself a commander both in CAP and active duty.  But he's despondent about what has happened to the organization.  He won't talk about what's going on out there - I think he's worried about being sued, but he's clammed up in the past couple of months. I found out about him being relieved through the grapevine, not from him.

Corruption, greed, immorality.  That's what we have.

I'll stay in, but only in the hope that we are able to turn things around.

GC

[CadetProgramGuy]

All,

I have been debating this for about a month solid.  Do I 2B myself or do I just fade away from glory and not renew.  Many of my fellow officers have chosen to go ny the way of the 2B.  Self termination of membership from the Wing. 

I have grown to love CAP in my almost 6 years as a member, but alas, as of late I grow weary with all of the politics, and good ol boy policies that seem never to go away.

I asked myself the other day.  Do I miss CAP or do I miss my friends that have left CAP for other ventures?  I miss my friends.

I will still hold a special place in my heart for CAP, but it is time to move on.

[ColonelJack]

Tossing my two cents into the ring ...

Flyboy, I was in your shoes 12 years ago.  Renewal became simply an annual decision to be made ("Dear God, do I want to do all that again???") and, after burning out in most areas of CAP, I submitted my retirement papers.

My attention to -- and love of -- CAP has never eased, though, and I have kept very close tabs on the organization, to see when the right time to rejoin would be.  Sadly, it hasn't come yet.  As mentioned, the removal of He Who Shall Not Be Named helped a lot, but I want to see the foolish politics end, or at least ease up, before I commit money and time on an annual basis again.

I can't advise you, Flyboy, other than to say ... "Do what is right for you.  You'll know what it is."

Jack

[Hawk200]

I often hear that people believe that CAP is better off being more military, but I wonder if that's really the problem and/or solution. 

I don't think it's the problem. I think the problem is that we need to choose. Even on this board, there are both camps. In my own unit, I had a LTC tell me that we didn't need to wear Air Force uniforms. The serious irony is that he was wearing blues at the time.

As for doing the flying thing, I decided to go that route when I got back in CAP. Fortunately, I managed to do it with the Army Guard, but I wanted to do it in CAP too. Things worked out. Only thing I'd recommend is to make your own decision as to how far you want to go, distance wise. I drive two and a half hours to do aircrew for the Guard, and for the time being, it's worth it. You may have to consider farther units to do that.

It will probably take some serious consideration. Keep in mind that there are probably people out there that greatly appreciate your presence in CAP. They may not say it, but the appreciation is there.

[mikeylikey]

My attention to -- and love of -- CAP has never eased, though, and I have kept very close tabs on the organization, to see when the right time to rejoin would be.  Sadly, it hasn't come yet.

Come on Col.  We need more good guys to rejoin.  Spend the $65.00 and get back into the swing!  You can do more if you are a member to change the organization than if you sit on the line.   

[JayT]

2.  I go back to the early 1960's in this organization.  I am hoping that we are just going through a phase, and eventually this "Corporate mentality" will be exterminated.  Then we can get back to doing what CAP was created for, and can do it without a bunch of barracks lawyers telling me that wearing a patch that says "US Air Force Auxiliary" will violate a law that they have never actually read.

Major

How has the world changed since the 1960s? Why should CAP be stuck in the past like that? Hell, I'm only 19 years old, and I'ven seen then world change. I think that this 'Corporate mentality' is just how a lot of America society is.

[JohnKachenmeister]

2.  I go back to the early 1960's in this organization.  I am hoping that we are just going through a phase, and eventually this "Corporate mentality" will be exterminated.  Then we can get back to doing what CAP was created for, and can do it without a bunch of barracks lawyers telling me that wearing a patch that says "US Air Force Auxiliary" will violate a law that they have never actually read.

Major

How has the world changed since the 1960s? Why should CAP be stuck in the past like that? Hell, I'm only 19 years old, and I'ven seen then world change. I think that this 'Corporate mentality' is just how a lot of America society is.

That is because you're only 19.

Guys that have been around as long as I have, or longer, understand that a sense of tradition a sense of connection with your past and your roots, is a valuable guide to the future.

[Stonewall]

Guys that have been around as long as I have, or longer, understand that a sense of tradition a sense of connection with your past and your roots, is a valuable guide to the future.

+1  Nicely said.

[DNall]

I'm sympathetic with a LOT of the stuff posted in this thread. I hate CAP & love it at the same time. I've quit & come back a couple times. It's frustrating as hell. If it weren't for a few rewarding experiences working with cadets I'd be gone, and even at that I feel like I don't want to be here & am just doing it out of obligation sometimes, a lot of times.

I've really scaled back my participation of late & picked up a lot more (time consuming) responsibility with the guard. I hope the corporate age dies sooner rather than later, and CAP gets its crap together. Given the current enviro though, that seems herculean compared to actually fixing all our other problems.

My renewal is a few months off. I'll probably keep it up, but who knows. I may also drop back to patron status till I feel like I want to be part of it again. It really is hard to be a CAP member when you're so frustrated & disappointed all the time. I know there is enormous potential hidden back under there somewhere though.

[isuhawkeye]

^^^  Change. 

Change the organization into what?  Thats the problem.

this weekend I sat and watched the national board present a meritorious service award.  In the write up they cited many many things that I had seen develop in my own wing.  The recipient had excelled in mission development, standardized training, getting legislation passed, developing stability, and many more positive attributes.  Unfortunately in the last two months those same achievements which were being exhausted at the national level have been dissolved in my wing. 

I faced the membership challenge, and I spoke with my feet. 

[Trouble]

Guys that have been around as long as I have, or longer, understand that a sense of tradition a sense of connection with your past and your roots, is a valuable guide to the future.

+1  Nicely said.

I second that emotion.  Very well said Sir!

In fact I would argue that because of those changes, especially the changes that are currently taking place around the world, that maintaining that connection is more important than it has ever been. 

[DNall]

You asking me what change? It's already been said...

I am hoping that we are just going through a phase, and eventually this "Corporate mentality" will be exterminated. 

I think the Air Force is trying to re-militarize itself, if that makes sense.  I'm hoping CAP will do the same.

a vocal minority who tries to move CAP away from what it was in the 50s, 60s, and 70s - a military-styled organization that trains cadets, conducts missions, and is a part of the Air Force.

I've grown tired of poor leadership.  I've grown tired of watching friends who are fine leaders who are serving under untrained politicians.

I personally think CAP is desperately in need of an intervention.

[davedove]

Guys that have been around as long as I have, or longer, understand that a sense of tradition a sense of connection with your past and your roots, is a valuable guide to the future.

+1  Nicely said.

I second that emotion.  Very well said Sir!

In fact I would argue that because of those changes, especially the changes that are currently taking place around the world, that maintaining that connection is more important than it has ever been. 

It's a two-edged sword.  It's important to keep the traditions to maintain the continuity in a chaotic world.  However, one cannot be so bound up in tradition that one fails to respond to change.

[FW]

In 2000, CAP became a different organization; with a corporate Board of Governors, an advisory board (National Board) and a senior advisory board (NEC).
This, my friends, is the world of "Civil Air Patrol, Inc."  Our relationship with the Air Force has changed.  The way we do business has changed.  The way we prosecute our missions has changed.  Our National Corp. Staff (paid), while sensitive to the needs of the membership, must obey our "Cooperative Agreement" and "Statement of Work".  Our "Constitution and Bylaws" are a members only documents.  

We live in an increasingly complex world and, for better or worse, an increasingly complex CAP.  Uniform items aside, IMHO, we've done a pretty good job of keeping up with the times.

[capchiro]

All, I have over 30 years since my last join date.  I was in as a senior prior to that and as a cadet in the glorious 60's.  That being said, there have been highs and lows over the decades.  During one period, I let my membership continue while I was doing some home stuff with the wife and little one.  I continued my membership so that I didn't lose all that I had worked for during the prior years.  My Dad was prior Air force and one of my son's graduated from the Air Force Academy, so I kind of feel like a military family.  Let me make anyone that is depressed, distressed and ready to quit a proposition.  Start a squadron, either cadet or composite.  All of you have several years of experience and know the program.  Everyone will help you start a squadron and believe it or not, it's not that difficult.  (Not that difficult to start a squadron that is).  The difficult part is making the squadron work.  The reward is seeing new cadets and senior members join and succeed with your help and guidance.  There aren't that many politics at the squadron level, not if you are doing what you should be doing.  My job is too help each individual reach their potential and goals.  And guess what, not all individuals have the same goals and potentials.  Some are ES, some are aviation, some are cadets, etc.  That is what makes it fun.  It is very challenging and does not give you the time to consider not renewing or feeling sorry for yourself.  It moves the emphasis from oneself to the squadron.  If you will attempt to start a squadron and give it a year and still want to quit, then I will agree that you should, but until then, think bigger than you have been.  Get with the program and you will begin to enjoy the program.  If anyone should decide to start a squadron and need help or advice, please contact me.  That is all..

[MIGCAP]

The problem is that CAP once was the USAF Auxiliary PERIOD! Whatever we did, was because the USAF wanted it done. (For the most part anyway). The purpose of the Corporation was to facilitate that mission, and that's it. We needed the corporation because that way we could get benefits of some sort, have tax exempt status, provide some measure of protection for the members (e.g. legal representation etc), and have a small efficient paid staff to do the repetitive stuff that the members, because they are volunteers, did not have the time to do. The corporate part of CAP was just a necessary, front end, nothing more.
I think what has the old guys (and I'm one) bothered enough to run away is that what we have morphed into is a corporation who will be the USAF Auxiliary on the corporation's terms.  We have the corporation making the decisions that the members should be making, protecting their own interests, and in general spending most of the money that the USAF gives us, as opposed to spending it on the Three Missions.
We need to go back to the era when the corporation was a tool of the volunteers, not the other way around.

[mikeylikey]

^ We really need the CAP National Commander to be a 2 Star AF Officer.  Enough with CAP-USAF......get daily operations at Maxwell run that way.  We now have the Corporate weenies that grew up as yes men and yes women (doing whatever they could to bolster the Corporation), in charge.  Total restructuring from top to bottom.  For as much as the AF gives CAP, they should have a 95% say in what happens on a daily basis. 

Now.....I am totally against the Corporate entity if you could not tell that.  Corporations are the ruination of this country!

I accept bashings between 10AM and 3PM.  Anyother time they will be ignored.   

[JoeTomasone]

Now.....I am totally against the Corporate entity if you could not tell that.  Corporations are the ruination of this country!

The Corporate ENTITY is needed and valuable for legal reasons since we are Civilians. 

The Corporate MENTALITY?  Not so much.

[mikeylikey]

Now.....I am totally against the Corporate entity if you could not tell that.  Corporations are the ruination of this country!

The Corporate ENTITY is needed and valuable for legal reasons since we are Civilians. 

The Corporate MENTALITY?  Not so much.

Is the Coast Guard Auxiliary (as many here like to compare CAP to) a Corporation?  OR does the Coast Guard run it at higher levels?  Do they still get federal funding?  We should be more like that organization!

[Gunner C]

^ We really need the CAP National Commander to be a 2 Star AF Officer.  Enough with CAP-USAF......get daily operations at Maxwell run that way.  We now have the Corporate weenies that grew up as yes men and yes women (doing whatever they could to bolster the Corporation), in charge.  Total restructuring from top to bottom.  For as much as the AF gives CAP, they should have a 95% say in what happens on a daily basis. 

Now.....I am totally against the Corporate entity if you could not tell that.  Corporations are the ruination of this country!

I accept bashings between 10AM and 3PM.  Anyother time they will be ignored.   

WIWAC, that was the case.  Brig Gen William W. Wilcox was the National Commander.  He was a USAF 1 star.  Following him was Maj Gen Walter B. Putnam, an old SAC guy who was recalled to active duty to be the CAP/CC.  The chief of staff was a colonel named Cox who was the aircraft commander of the B-29 that followed the Enola Gay and took target photos.

Let me tell you, with officers like these, CAP was a different place.  Sure, there was still the National Board and NEC, and the ranking CAP officer was the Chairman of the NB (then a colonel, later a brig gen when Lyle W. Castle got his star), but the style of leadership at the top was well trained because they were active duty officers.  They knew how to lead and inspire.  That's something that we DON'T have these days.

GC

[JohnKachenmeister]

Now.....I am totally against the Corporate entity if you could not tell that.  Corporations are the ruination of this country!

The Corporate ENTITY is needed and valuable for legal reasons since we are Civilians. 

The Corporate MENTALITY?  Not so much.

Nonsense.  The corporate entity is valuable only for purposes of contracting with local and state governments and NGO's.  That is also our 1948 Congressional mandate, but the fact is that a generation of terrible leaders with no military background have taken the word "Corporation" and twisted CAP into a perversion of itself and a parody of a for-profit corporation.

[DNall]

I hadn't seen a thread in a long time with so much I could agree with. I hope someone's taking note of this one.

Far as the 2000 changes, that was not to make us more corporate. That was congress reacting to the CAP corporation being out of control, removing governing power from the NB/NEC & placing it in a new BoG, which the AF had appointing power over. There was even a debate raised by GAO for a time if those BoG members should require senate confirmation. The whole point then was to weaken the corporate aspect & re-instill greater control to AF, while still providing the legal & benefit aspects of being a non-profit entity.

[JohnKachenmeister]

^ We really need the CAP National Commander to be a 2 Star AF Officer.  Enough with CAP-USAF......get daily operations at Maxwell run that way.  We now have the Corporate weenies that grew up as yes men and yes women (doing whatever they could to bolster the Corporation), in charge.  Total restructuring from top to bottom.  For as much as the AF gives CAP, they should have a 95% say in what happens on a daily basis. 

Now.....I am totally against the Corporate entity if you could not tell that.  Corporations are the ruination of this country!

I accept bashings between 10AM and 3PM.  Anyother time they will be ignored.   

I won't bash you for that idea, and I doubt that many others will.

Back in the day, the National Commander was a USAF officer and the Deputy was a CAP officer.  CAP was a better place back then.

I would LIKE to see a rule that nobody could be appointed COL or higher in CAP without a minimum of 10 years commissioned service, active OR reserve.

[DNall]

How about we just start with confirmation/veto by the AF.

[JoeTomasone]

Is the Coast Guard Auxiliary (as many here like to compare CAP to) a Corporation?  OR does the Coast Guard run it at higher levels?  Do they still get federal funding?  We should be more like that organization!

From their site:

When the Coast Guard "Reserve" was authorized by act of Congress on June 23, 1939, the Coast Guard was given a legislative mandate to use civilian volunteers to promote safety on and over the high seas and the nation's navigable waters. The Coast Guard Reserve was then a non-military service comprised of unpaid, volunteer U.S. citizens who owned motorboats or yachts.

Two years later, on Feb. 19, Congress amended the 1939 act with passage of the Auxiliary and Reserve Act of 1941. Passage of this act designated the Reserve as a military branch of the active service, while the civilian volunteers, formerly referred to as the Coast Guard Reserve, became the Auxiliary. So, February 19 is formally recognized as the birth of the Coast Guard Reserve while June 23 is recognized as birthday of the Coast Guard Auxiliary.

<snip>

Although under the authority of the Commandant of the U.S. Coast Guard, the Auxiliary is internally autonomous, operating on four organizational levels: Flotilla, Division, District Regions and National.

Looks like they have a sister corporation that handles their business affairs:

What type of corporation is the Coast Guard Auxiliary Association, Inc.?

The Coast Guard Auxiliary Association, Inc., is a Non-Profit, 501(c)(3) organization incorporated under the laws of the District of Columbia. The Commandant of the U.S. Coast Guard authorized the establishment of the Association as the only corporation authorized to provide for the business management of the U.S. Coast Guard Auxiliary.

[FW]

I hadn't seen a thread in a long time with so much I could agree with. I hope someone's taking note of this one.

Far as the 2000 changes, that was not to make us more corporate. That was congress reacting to the CAP corporation being out of control, removing governing power from the NB/NEC & placing it in a new BoG, which the AF had appointing power over. There was even a debate raised by GAO for a time if those BoG members should require senate confirmation. The whole point then was to weaken the corporate aspect & re-instill greater control to AF, while still providing the legal & benefit aspects of being a non-profit entity.

Not to stray off topic however, it may have been the intent of the 2000 legislation to do what you said.  But, the reality of the situation was to make us even more "corporate".  

I deal with this stuff on a daily basis and I can assure you the powers that be are now "toying" with the idea of NB members attending NB meetings in business attire.  The Air Force is questioning our spending on cadet programs and, even the expenses for publishing the annual report to congress.

At the very least.  I would hope for honest minimum requirements for wing/ccs,  ongoing leadership training, real tenure, and BOG confirmation of Natl Commander and Vice.  

FWIW, If it were up to the Air Force, we would get about $1.50.  But, our "grant" comes from congress and is administered by a "grants officer" who happens to be an Air Force employee.  CAP-USAF is tasked to insure proper use of our grant and that our missions are "appropriate".  Even though the CAP-USAF/CC is a member of the NEC and NB, it is as a non voting member.

[BillB]

The CAP-USAF Vice Commander under General B Putnam was Colonel McCormack, who upon retiring became CAP SER Commander.

[mikeylikey]

I was not going to write this but here goes.  I am a non-renewal when my time comes in about 6 months.  A...I will be in Afghanistan (can't help much from there) and I am getting sick of the politics and petty stupidness that is coming from the top. 

It is getting to the point of pure frustration and I just don't think I Can handle much more idiocracy.  I don't even think I will be moving over into patron status.  I think this was it.  UNLESS NHQ pays for the dues for members that ordered to Active Duty or deployed, I won't renew.

[ColonelJack]

I was not going to write this but here goes.  I am a non-renewal when my time comes in about 6 months.  A...I will be in Afghanistan (can't help much from there) and I am getting sick of the politics and petty stupidness that is coming from the top. 

It is getting to the point of pure frustration and I just don't think I Can handle much more idiocracy.  I don't even think I will be moving over into patron status.  I think this was it.  UNLESS NHQ pays for the dues for members that ordered to Active Duty or deployed, I won't renew.

So you're encouraging me to come back even as you contemplate taking a walk, eh?   

Jack

[DNall]

Far as the 2000 changes, that was not to make us more corporate. That was congress reacting to the CAP corporation being out of control, removing governing power from the NB/NEC & placing it in a new BoG, which the AF had appointing power over. There was even a debate raised by GAO for a time if those BoG members should require senate confirmation. The whole point then was to weaken the corporate aspect & re-instill greater control to AF, while still providing the legal & benefit aspects of being a non-profit entity.

Not to stray off topic however, it may have been the intent of the 2000 legislation to do what you said.  But, the reality of the situation was to make us even more "corporate". 

Power struggle by CAP leadership. They didn't want to give up the power that was taken away from them by congress, so they maximized the power delegated to them by the BoG & pushed back under the corporate mantel. Congress doesn't want that, I can assure you. The AF doesn't want that, which was the purpose of the legislation. Which itself was watered down from the AF version which was them taking control of the org.

FWIW, If it were up to the Air Force, we would get about $1.50.  But, our "grant" comes from congress and is administered by a "grants officer" who happens to be an Air Force employee.  CAP-USAF is tasked to insure proper use of our grant and that our missions are "appropriate".  Even though the CAP-USAF/CC is a member of the NEC and NB, it is as a non voting member.

You real sure about that? Cause I've personally talked to the last three SecAF's 2 of three CSAFs, and about 60 members of congress about CAP. That's not the prevailing view among any of them.

Yes, there are a lot of mid-grade people in the AF who understand CAP is not contributing in a measurable way to any of the major missions of the AF, so should be a lower priority in the budget. However, that has never been the view of leadership. I will tell you that the AF is for the most part just as frustrated as the people you see here with the performance & actions of CAP. They'd just assume take control, which is what the overwhelming majority of members would favor. Congress is split on the issue & always has been. The only people in favor of a functional corporation separate from the AF chain of command are the corporate leadership.

[Walkman]

Well, as a new guy, I hope I can work my CAP career in a way as to avoid the burnout so many of you have expressed. Right now, as a brand new butterbar, this is one of the coolest things I've ever been involved with.

[RiverAux]

Walkman, the best way to maintain that attitude is to immediately desist from participating in any discussions on CAPTalk.  It will only make your attitude worse. 

[FW]

[Power struggle by CAP leadership. They didn't want to give up the power that was taken away from them by congress, so they maximized the power delegated to them by the BoG & pushed back under the corporate mantel. Congress doesn't want that, I can assure you. The AF doesn't want that, which was the purpose of the legislation. Which itself was watered down from the AF version which was them taking control of the org.

FWIW, If it were up to the Air Force, we would get about $1.50.  But, our "grant" comes from congress and is administered by a "grants officer" who happens to be an Air Force employee.  CAP-USAF is tasked to insure proper use of our grant and that our missions are "appropriate".  Even though the CAP-USAF/CC is a member of the NEC and NB, it is as a non voting member.

You real sure about that? Cause I've personally talked to the last three SecAF's 2 of three CSAFs, and about 60 members of congress about CAP. That's not the prevailing view among any of them.

My point is:  It is our friends in congress who insure our grant every year.  The AF goes along with this because of our continued congressional support.  That's why when every year the AF cuts 3-5 million bucks from our grant, it gets plussed up by congress.

You think we got $10 million for aircraft purchases from the AF?  Nope, it was from our friends at Cessna Aircraft lobbying congress for some CAP business.  This is how things get done.  

I'm not really concerned about some "mid grade AF" types who don't understand the missions of CAP.  And no one is concerned about a $30m grant when the AF needs an extra $15-20 BILLION per year for the next 10 years to keep flying.

I am gratefull however, of the members of the BOG appointed by the SECAF (4 members) who take their duties seriously and do help keep us on track.

As for power struggles; I would like some more detail.  The BOG controlls the IG, EX and Constitution and Bylaws.  It is the BOG who was the power.  Everything else flows from that body.  It would be a just a small leap for the BOG to exercise their authority and change everything if things were going so bad.  However, IMHO, things are going pretty good.

Soo.. I'll just keep doing my duty,  keep renewing every year and yes, be proud of my continued membership in CAP.

[Walkman]

Walkman, the best way to maintain that attitude is to immediately desist from participating in any discussions on CAPTalk.  It will only make your attitude worse. 

NOW you tell me!   

[Cecil DP]

I go through this every time I renew. Thanks to a couple of multiple year renewals it's done to about 30 times. I don't know what I'll be doing this November when I get the renewal notice. But I am frustrated by several things which are prevelant in CAP and the politics involved. I've done everything in the program except IACE and being a Wing Commander and truthfully I can go to Europe on my own an don't want the W/C job

[DNall]

My point is...

You're a tab misinformed there bud. I'll be happy to continue via PM if you like, but we don't need to push this further off topic between the two of us.

[flyboy]

I notice there seems to be a repeated sentiment among the folks here that we need to become less corporate and more military. I've heard this opinion stated repeatedly by older members, especially military veteran members.  However, the statement isn't really clear in meaning.  What does being "more military" really mean?  Does that mean there's more drill?  The uniform regulations are more stringent? We drop members for push-ups if they are late for a meeting?  More importantly, why is it that people think this would help?

[JohnKachenmeister]

OK, fair question.

Becoming more military means that we would accept the military values as our own, not approach the regulations like a barraks lawyer trying to "catch" one another on miniscule violations.  "All the brothers are valiant, and all of the sisters are virtuous" would be the guiding principle in our interpersonal relationships.

(The foregoing does not apply at dinings-in, when Mr. Vice can be set upon any breech of decorum for the entertainment of others!)

Becoming more military means also making our operations smoother.  Our command relationships should be linear, with clear chains of command.  For example, the IC is in charge at missions, but not the movement TO and FROM a mission base, unless it is an air movement.  Ground movements are a command responsibility of the sending unit.  When one can clearly explain the command and staff relationships, and reduce them to orders in a format that Cadet Snuffy can understand, one has gone a long way to doing things the way the military does.  Plus, it will enhance your understanding of NIMS, which is based on the military staffing model.

CAP has a long heritage as a part of the USAF.  Becoming more military means accepting this heritage and internalizing it.  At least, not running from it or denying it.  We have traditionally been second-line troops, pilots and ground crews culled out of the herd as not fit to make the trail ride to the slaughterhouse.  But there have still been missions, including combat missions, that we have performed.  Being ready to do these missions, being proud of the heritage we share with the Air Force, and realizing that we are as much a part of the Air Force story as anybody is another big part of becoming more military.

OK, now I'm starting to feel like Sgt. Hulka talking to Pvt. John Winger in the latrine.

[mikeylikey]

OK, now I'm starting to feel like Sgt. Hulka talking to Pvt. John Winger in the latrine.

Your post was spot on Sir.  BTW Favorite movie.......

[floridacyclist]

So what do you do when you realize that you're spinning your wheels trying to get anything good done, yet you have kids in, you've seen the good changes in your older kids, and your youngest just joined with at least 6 more years to go? Grimly hang on until you can kick him out of the house or?

[JohnKachenmeister]

So what do you do when you realize that you're spinning your wheels trying to get anything good done, yet you have kids in, you've seen the good changes in your older kids, and your youngest just joined with at least 6 more years to go? Grimly hang on until you can kick him out of the house or?

Well, Gene...

I suppose we could engineer a coup-de-etat!

Now IF we were a part of the Air Force, this would be a "Mutiny," and we could all be shot.  But since so many of our so-called "Leaders" want to run this place as a corporation, I suppose this would only be considered a "Hostile Takeover," and therefore perfectly acceptable.

We could burn the National Executive Committee in Effigy.  (Effigy, Florida; a small town in Polk County where there are very few witnesses and nobody speaks English.  Their cries for help will go untranslated.

[FW]

Effigy, Fl.  I could use some warmth at this time of the year.  And maybe we could chant:  "Core Values  Core Values"  over and over again.  

[DNall]

We could burn the National Executive Committee in Effigy.  (Effigy, Florida; a small town in Polk County where there are very few witnesses and nobody speaks English.  Their cries for help will go untranslated.

And maybe we could chant:  "Core Values  Core Values"  over and over again.   

   and hostile takeover, i like that.

[dwb]

I'm pretty well convinced that all organizations have frustrating and absurd politics, especially at the top.  If you don't think our parent service is rife with meddling middle management and shady politics, well, you're just being naive.

What can you do, really?  Well, you can vote with your feet.  Or you can be one of the 95% of CAPers that just do their job and serve the organization they love, and brush off all the politicos and pundits.

You don't leave the United States for another country when your elected officials disappoint you, right?  Your love of country is greater than your opinion of any particular elected official.

So it is with CAP.  My love for the organization is greater than my disappointment in any particular CAP leaders I've seen (and I've seen some pretty disappointing leaders).

[FW]

So it is with CAP.  My love for the organization is greater than my disappointment in any particular CAP leaders I've seen (and I've seen some pretty disappointing leaders).

That about sums it up for me.  Over the years, I've developed a very thick filter which screens about about 90% of the BS comming at me from most CAP members I deal with.  The 10% which gets through  I can't control so I don't bother with it. 
What amazes me is after 30 or so years, I still enjoy CAP and the many friendships and acquaintances I've developed.

[mynetdude]

Well I can't help but reply as I feel the same way. I'll tell you this, I am due for promotion 1 month from now I am not due for renewal until 2009 that doesn't mean I won't flinch because it only takes one major downfall within my squadron to do one of the two things: A) discontinue going, or B) transfer to another unit (although I am not sure this will help either).  I may have had more time than walker here, I don't have the full understanding of all what is going on within my own squadron, wing and at the national level (I don't hear much about pacific region.  Quite frankly, I don't care; if you guys want to fight/bicker/argue about policy and how it should be... fine please do but please don't neglect the programs/missions CAP is intended to do and please stop acting stupid, dumb (or numb!).

Sure NHQ is buttoning up regulations, things get more complicated/difficult/time consuming whatever that is a fact of life and a fact of the USAF.  I do not necessarily agree with the direction corporate is exactly going although I don't follow every detail (it hurts my head too much to do so) and you know what to be honest I don't have a problem following policy/regulation even though it is so confusing and difficult that I see some long day/nights trying to figure things out or asking a million senseless questions (and some I might add turn out to reveal great answers).

I don't disagree that corporation needs to go with the "times" of today's acceptable standards, yet we can't let go of our history/story/heritage.  My problem isn't really with the NHQ or region level really I don't know enough about it and TBH yes some things are changing and hurting (or making better, I don't know that I can't say for sure) but I sure as heck know enough down at the squadron/wing level that I am not sure I just want to wade through their mess! (no I am not involved in any shape, form etc except that I am a member and have to watch their garbage go in and out constantly.

I joined PCROR007 October 2006, and saw just over 80 total combined members we made up the majority of ORWG at the time we are now down to 65 members! Do I want to standby and pretend nothing is happening? I am trying to help my squadron support its goals and the CAP missions as required, no truly it doesn't have a severe or profound effect on me directly I can continue doing what I love to do and that is computer work that is what I live for now at CAP along with ES.

When I first came to CAP I wasn't all sure what I'd do, or what I would want to do and at first I thought it was all about flying and cadet programs (I had wanted to join CAP back when I lived in Washington 7-8 years ago but didn't do it because of my own personal fears which I still have to this day.  And part of that fear is blowing up right in front of me, when I saw I could get involved in doing computer stuff more than getting involved in aircrew assignments for missions because of my limited vision I am happy where I am at but I will NOT standby and let the squadron whittle itself away by pure political crap gong on.

We have a GREAT squadron commander, he sometimes overdoes it because we are getting smaller and smaller with staffing and support and with what we have left people rarely show up or just don't want to do the job and would rather sit in an airplane at 5,000 feet and do a bunch of turns all day I don't know what they think or want really.  We are seeing cadets leave due to the "incompatibility of senior members" they say that senior members won't work with the cadets (which is true, except for a few) and there are cadets who don't want anything to do with seniors because of the above reason.

We have so much stuff going on, it isn't funny and Wing isn't even helping either they are adding to the mess by just letting it "ride and slide".  I can tell you first hand one of our members filed a complaint with NHQ regarding an incident that happened at our squadron which the squadron commander, nor wing commander (or vice commanders for that matter) chose not to acknowledge... I was there the day it happened I didn't witness it however so I can't tell you if it really happened or it did.

I got my brother to join and I am frustrated he won't come back, he left a month after he joined he is a shy person and does not tolerate people very well but he could have come to like things if things weren't so screwed up. The DCC's kid won't come back either (although he is very people friendly, but won't come back for the same reason as my brother).

Do you think I REALLY want to stick around? I want to see people working together instead of arguing and saying "sorry, thats just policy, or sorry nothing I can do about it you're on your own" whatever...  yes I know we have to follow policy and do the right thing but I'm tired of the higher ups making policy that doesn't even exist as of late.

I want to try another squadron, the next nearest one is more than 1/2 the size smaller! I am not sure that is the answer, I can go to another squadron 2hrs north of me which is in the same city where our wing HQ is.....  do I really want to travel 4hrs that day? thats a lot of driving and more miles to drive... but then again... its not much of a difference when I do 70 miles round trip every time I go to our unit I can handle 240 miles round trip

OR I could go down to California, there is supposed to be a unit in Redding/Shasta Composite Squadron, again that is a 2hr drive (alittle more actually) again, is California any better? I wouldn't say better, but they are different probably.  And no I do not plan to move, I like where I live.

All have gots to say is this I don't think I plan to renew after 2010 if it isn't worth staying on the Patron level (my next renewal is in 2009, but I am willing to renew at least one year after that).

I am proud to have joined CAP, it has given me more confidence and renewed skills and more to learn about, I actually liked the idea we followed military tradition as I could never legally join the military.  I am quite interested in that VSAF program, that is a completely new concept and I am all for it except it is a pilot program in two places right now and I have no idea if that would include ANG bases or just AFBs only?

I know the magic isn't going to happen overnight or right now, however I refuse to standby and watch the politics rip one person out at a time.  I would have liked to see more hands on actual military training as a senior member as I never got the opportunity to be a cadet (or maybe I did, but my parents didn't allow it for a good reason at the time) and the training could/would be for educational benefit and interest bonding not so much in doing your job at the squadron or wing (though I am sure it could help).


You guys are all talking about NHQ, yes I realize they are causing some of the problems too they are not innocent.  We have seen an incredible amount of increase in paperwork (or shall I say computer-paperwork) which is OK I don't mind, it is what I do best but if they keep adding/changing things to complicate things it makes it difficult for me to train our staff sometimes!

Well I don't want to write a book about problems, I just wanted to point out that I am not happy at the lower level and I am not particularly fond of what is happening at the NHQ level and like I said before I don't wholly pay attention to it all and only wait till it slaps everybody in the face (it is easier for me to handle it that way).  I still need to get cadets OPSEC qualified by April 1st, we have two weeks left... certainly isn't going to happen either and you want to know why? DCC says cadets have to fulfill certain requirements each month and there isn't much time on Tuesdays to do it. 

One day at a time folks...

[DNall]

I'm pretty well convinced that all organizations have frustrating and absurd politics, especially at the top.  If you don't think our parent service is rife with meddling middle management and shady politics, well, you're just being naive.

What can you do, really?  Well, you can vote with your feet.  Or you can be one of the 95% of CAPers that just do their job and serve the organization they love, and brush off all the politicos and pundits.

You don't leave the United States for another country when your elected officials disappoint you, right?  Your love of country is greater than your opinion of any particular elected official.

So it is with CAP.  My love for the organization is greater than my disappointment in any particular CAP leaders I've seen (and I've seen some pretty disappointing leaders).

That would be fine except it's not 95%. You know very well our year over year retention numbers are more like 60%, and of that 60% a bit less than half are actively participating at a Sq. The retention beyond five years is horrid... So you're talking about 25-30% of the organization are going about their work ignoring the BS, and 5-10% have been around long enough to even know how to keep things operating. Yet we recruit up & institutional memory at the unit level is low. So voting with your feet is pretty meaningless. We'll have some other victim ready to take your place as soon as you vacate the chair.

I think you'll find everyone here does love CAP. Most have also worked very hard and sacrificed very deeply to make things better. Yet when we reach a point where success can be attained, we're stymied by the nature of the the organization.

I don't care if a bunch of idiots want to fight it out over who's the big fish in the little pond. I do care when it impacts the real world & cripples our operations. I also care when that power struggle self-importance BS is the senior leadership defying commander's intent from the AF. There's always going to be personal politics in any organization, but there should not be organizational politics within a unified chain of command. And, that's what's killing us, that & crippling incompetence.

[floridacyclist]

I'm pretty good at ignoring things, but when they start impacting the local level, it starts getting to me.

Ex 1: We were asked by a local gov't agency to fly some photo-recon missions and they needed it done by the end of January. Not a prob except we were told we needed an MOU based on our pre-approved (by Nat'l) boilerplate template. The draft MOU went to the gov't agency and was approved by their lawyers and then came back to CAP where it has been since early February. After the first week, I called and was told that some of the CAP contact info was wrong and that I needed to fix it...this is on the template that I was sent by them. At the very least I would have throught they would have called me and told me what was wrong instead of just sitting on it. I do the research on who is in what position, fix the problem, and send it in like 3 weeks ago. In spite of emailing once a week or so asking about the status and making sure it is good, I finally get an email stating that it should be done by this weekend. In the meantime, I have this agency breathing down my neck and calling me every other day asking why we're not flying yet and my squadron commander railing at me saying that we don't need an MOU or an IC or anything like that, we just need a pilot and a plane, which we have already.

In the middle of this I was trying to plan another ICS weekend just like last one (ICS100/200 and IS700 + ICS300 in a seperate concurrent class) only including 400 in a third class. I had several volunteer professional instructors lined up including the owner of an emergency management consulting and instructional firm, an instructor from a competing firm and 2 gov't EM training officers. We lost our original date due to scheduling conflicts at the classroom/billeting/mess hall facility we were using so we started working on re-scheduling. As I'm emailing back and forth, I get this email from a high-ranking CAP ICS instructor whom I had asked for help (and been declined) telling me to remove a certain commercial instructor from the list. Not only did he email me, but CCed the other instructors as well. No sooner had I replied saying "OK, am I to assume that he is no longer available?" than I get other emails from my other instructors saying remove their names as well...that they are pros and don't play games. Turns out that these folks used to work together and the parting was less than amicable. Apologies weren't sufficient, we were told in no uncertain terms that the pros do not want to piddle in our petty nonsense.

2 more group training activities and a Ranger Weekend and I'm out of here and on the road for 4 months...we'll do Hawk Mountain and Blue Beret during our trip but after this ride, I honestly do not know what capacity I want to come back in...assuming I do.

[mynetdude]

Yeah here's a good example:

My commander gets notified by the county sheriffs emergency management director that an ICS300/400 class is available.  He emails everybody a couple weeks later, I sign up, a few others sign up.  He sends another email with that list back to county EM director a week or so later.  No word comes back for awhile, list goes out again, finally an email comes back saying the class is full no room for CAP even though in the original/initial email it said that CAP members were welcome and it was already paid for (free to us).

It isn't the county director's fault that we didn't submit our emails in time; I don't want to blame the commander, and really it isn't his fault either.  I have asked several times to let me be the squadron Liaison involving public relations and ES (no this doens't mean being a PAO, thats another topic). My job would be to keep abreast of what would be going on with our squadron and the county/community and merge/sync information between the two major entities (I consider the county/community a major entity).

What have I got? No answer, no response... I guess he doesn't want a liaison... fine... then you know what... if that is what you want rest assured we'll never get any ICS300/400 classes or get involved in other county ES/EM stuff because we don't have a building relation and they do not have someone who can provide feedback on behalf the squadron because the commander has too many fingers int oo many things.

^^ that is just spelling for unsuccess in ES in our area, we lost our airplane to go with it.

Don't get me wrong I like CAP, I've put in a lot of time and I can ignore most of the BS/politics which I have no problem doing if A) it doesn't affect me or have an imact on me B) the squadron continues to be successful anything else... my hands will be tied and they will be begging which is why I am not going to encampment this year either I didn't appreciate the results last year.

NO matter where you go there will be politics, I can accept that; should there be any? TBH, no not really but that isn't something that can be avoided in today's world.

This spring I hope to visit another squadron, and see if my family will support me transferring out of state even if it means making a 2hr drive once or twice a week.  The bummer is that its going to really limit my involvement as I am not going to want to make a 2hr drive every time something comes up.  If I like the squadron I will stay at least until Fall of '08 and then transfer out in spring of '09 if things don't get better at my local unit and if things go well for me in whatever I choose I may consider staying longer in CAP even if it isn't in my local unit.

[RiverAux]

You don't need an MOU to fly for an agency.  Just a written request to the NOC.  Our wing has done it that way with at least 2-3 different state agencies in the past year or two (none have anything to do with our emergency mgt division).  I think you guys got some bad advice. 

[floridacyclist]

Whether we do or not, the decision was made far over my head...ours is not to wonder why etc etc etc

[Fifinella]

^^ That's a big part of the problem as I see it.  This organization is Byzantine.  It is very difficult and frustrating to figure out how things are "supposed to" be done.  The regs and guidelines contradict each other.  It's a H**l of a lot of work, and most volunteers don't want to spend copious amounts of time digging through paperwork to try to figure out how things are "supposed to" be done.  It's a poor way to run an org.  Things "ought to" to clearly defined, and volunteers "ought to" be able to understand how to do things right out of the box.

I won't rant on...I could go for some time.

I think this is a good discussion, but I hope it doesn't disillusion anyone prematurely...

[mynetdude]

^^ That's a big part of the problem as I see it.  This organization is Byzantine.  It is very difficult and frustrating to figure out how things are "supposed to" be done.  The regs and guidelines contradict each other.  It's a H**l of a lot of work, and most volunteers don't want to spend copious amounts of time digging through paperwork to try to figure out how things are "supposed to" be done.  It's a poor way to run an org.  Things "ought to" to clearly defined, and volunteers "ought to" be able to understand how to do things right out of the box.

I won't rant on...I could go for some time.

I think this is a good discussion, but I hope it doesn't disillusion anyone prematurely...

If they do that, we could see some growth again, regulation is just part of the big picturesque of the problem.  Culling the lower level politics/funding problems could also improve things as well.

Funding especially...

[sarmed1]

I did my renewal on the morinig of 28 Feb.....and then e-mailed my commander requesting to drop to patron status.  I too have grown tired of the bickering, infighting silly reg changes and ego boosts for echelons above reality.  (all of which seem to screw over the local level units that are really thrying to be ready for and do the mission)

My non CAP life is much busier than before, I am active with extra projects at the paramedic job plus the volunteer fire department.  The county Technical rescue team gets me much better and more frequent missions that actually use more than 1/10th of my skills.
If I want to play "military" well thats what I have the AF Reserve for...maybe I will actually pursue going to CAP-RAP as an additional duty, maybe that will make me feel more like I can effect a solution to the problems, rather than being overwhelmed by them....

I feel your pain as well
mk

[CASH172]

I've been trying to stay away from this thread, but here I go anyway.  As a cadet, do I feel a lot of the same issues mentioned before?  The answer is yes, but as a cadet, I have gotten so much out of CAP.  Quite frankly, CAP has had a big impact on my life.  It has given me amazing experiences, great friends, and useful lessons on life. 

Do I see a lot of the political stuff we talk of on here?  Definitely, but I work toward doing what I can.  For stuff on small levels, I work on doing what I can do to remedy the problems.  Do I get myself involved on every single local political problem?  No, but I look to see if it affects me or something I hold dear then act on that.  I hold all other cadets very dear and cannot stand when this kinda stuff hits them.  It's pointless to talk of how I'll leave CAP complaining of everything without working to remedy the problem at least. 

Something that I ask all seniors to think about is what happens to the cadets when you leave?  The Cadet Program at any level cannot function without the seniors and without seniors, there would be no cadets. 

[floridacyclist]

You just hit the nail on the head about why I (and I bet many others) are still here. if it weren't for the cadets, more of us would have been gone a long time ago.