Airborne loudspeakers

[RiverAux]

Well, it looks like Oregon is joining Hawaii with getting airborne loudspeaker capability: http://www.registerguard.com/csp/cms/sites/dt.cms.support.viewStory.cls?cid=69543&sid=1&fid=1

Looks like a good system, though it will cost the next guy $10K to be heard from 3 miles away at 1K AGL. 

Hidden within the story is a bad dig at the Air Force regarding the Kim search (the prison guard is the local CAP commander):

The idea for an airborne tsunami warning system came about after the retired Pelican Bay State Prison guard got a phone call in December 2006 that made him feel "helpless," he said. On the line was Spencer Kim, in a desperate hunt for his son James, stranded in the Rogue wilderness in December 2006 with his wife and their two daughters. The elder Kim wanted Bakker's help, as commander of the local Civil Air Patrol. But there was nothing Bakker could do. "The Air Force told us to stand down," Bakker said. As the nation would later learn, James Kim died of hypothermia after hiking away from his family to look for help. By the time Spencer Kim hired a private helicopter and another volunteer searcher spotted the rest of his family, his son was dead, if only for a few hours. Bakker wonders whether things might have been different if he'd been free to use the Civil Air Patrol's planes without a request from authorities.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Bad dig or not, he is right.  A fixed-wing search at 1000 feet AGL would have had a medium-to-high POD.  The terrain was low rolling hills, moderate brush cover, interspersed with a network of unimproved roads.

The search area was fairly well-defined, and could have been covered easily within a day or two by trained air search crews.

The villain wasn't the Air Force, though.  The local sheriff declared that the terrain "Could not be searched by fixed wing aircraft" even though he was not a pilot and had no air search experience.

[bwj]

Just a quick FYI about the terrain of the Kim search. It most definitely is not low rolling hills with scrub brush. They were in part of the Coast Range of Oregon, which has some very steep and rugged terrain. Most of it is heavily forested with fir trees. The Kim's car was parked in an open area at the junction of a couple of logging roads. Mr. Kim himself was in a canyon near the River when found.

[SJFedor]

Looks like a neat toy. Getting some of those for each wing, especially those in areas that are subject to natural disasters (pacific coast, southeastern US for impending hurricanes, etc) would be another tool in our bag to offer to the local and state governments.

[♠SARKID♠]

I think its good that we're expanding the alerting system program.  Whatever it takes to save lives; thats what we are here to do.  Although I'm curious as to how its set up.  I can't see jack squat form the thumbnail on the article.  How are the speakers mounted?  How much do they add to the weight of the aircraft?

[JohnKachenmeister]

Just a quick FYI about the terrain of the Kim search. It most definitely is not low rolling hills with scrub brush. They were in part of the Coast Range of Oregon, which has some very steep and rugged terrain. Most of it is heavily forested with fir trees. The Kim's car was parked in an open area at the junction of a couple of logging roads. Mr. Kim himself was in a canyon near the River when found.

Somebody posted a GoogleEarth image of the area where the car was found.  There were some fir trees, but the roads were clearly visible, and I did not see any dangerous mountains.  The terrain elevation varied from 1000 to 2500 feet above sea level.  I believe you that there are mountains and canyons in the area, but where the car was stranded did not look any more hostile than southern Ohio, and a heck of a lot LESS hostile than southern Florida.

But... my point is not to argue terrain.  My point is that decisions regarding air searches should be made by pilots experienced in air searches.  A non-flyer sheriff deciding that a fixed-wing search cannot be made is like a first aider not sending an injured man to a hospital, because he has concluded that his condition is inoperable.

THAT is what I consider to be so bad about the Kim issue.  The sheriff refused to request CAP assistance.  If he had asked for help, and experienced mission pilots considered the mission too hazardous, I would accept that.  To wallow in ignorance, and make a life-and-death decision regarding a desperate family without even asking for advice is morally reprehensible.

[isuhawkeye]

two things.

1 when Iowa wing was looking at flir the air force lo shop made a point of the fact that the wing did not own the aircraft, and that the assett could be reassigned at aany time

2.  the Kim search is a prime example as to why CAP needs to be involved at the state level.  it is the state who has the agreement with AFRCC.  If that agreement is set up in a more active manor CAP could be involved in much more.


this post made from a treo phone

[Al Sayre]

Just to pile on what Kach said, if there are areas that can be searched with fixed wings, then you can raise your Probability of Containment by doing so and eliminating them from the search area...

[mynetdude]

I'm from Oregon,  and I know first hand from discussion at our squadron because a lot of our members were also complaining that CAP couldn't get involved and it wasn't because of AFRCC either.

I only know what I understood from "flying" conversaions, I am from Medford about 2-3hrs from Brookings which is where Mr Bakker is (and I've met him, others in my squadron know him decently well).

The there was a problem with the incident command structure when the Kim Search started (the exact details I am not sure of)  It seems to me there were confusion about who had jurisdiction and who should be the IC at the time.

I don't remember where/what county the Kim search took place in, I do know that our squadron when we have funding we do SAR training in the same BLM area where the remaining Kim family were found so that aircrews have seen it and know what to expect in various conditions so in the event of a similar/nearby search they'll have a better knowledge of what to expect.

At some point the sherrif departments decided to turn it over to the state police (at least that is how I understand it) (as to what extent they are involved in SAR, I have no knowledge of that).  The OSP patrol higways and some county rural roads, I have never seen OSP involved in SAR until now which may change things for the state legislation.

As it is my understanding Oregon law places SAR/missing people rescue on the county sherrif within the state that being said the state emergency office (OEM) is supposed to call the respective county sherrif's office anytime there is an ELT in their county and it is up to the sherrif to decide whether to let CAP have at it or they will go after it on their own (most of the time they tell OEM to call CAP).  My point is, that the sherrif have the ulitmate responsibility as they are the "First Call" for SAR/missing persons/ELT they HAVE the option of asking CAP for help (and they SHOULD as it will keep operational costs down for them so they can focus on higher priority needs while we do ELTs and support them finding someone and CAP can call on them when additional assistance is required and so on.

It is no surprise that others are aware many like to think helicopters are a better SAR tool than fixed wing or not having a fixed wing is a good idea as we hear about it all the time in Oregon as we have several counties that do not want to have anything to do with CAP so YMMV depending which counties you are operating in.  I DO agree it should be up to the pilot/SAR aircrew to decide how to do an search for that particular area and whether risks can be mitigated or not (ORM) as I hear from the higher ups in my squadron that we are constantly told how to do a search from higher up at wing/IC because the way they think we should do a search may not be compatible with the terrain or weather at the time of search.  You can still search a grid or a small section of a grid in many effective ways (that is why we have more than one way of searching and two heads is better than one).

I was not heavily involved in these matters, however I do have a pretty good idea of what happened even though I don't have a solid grasp on the details so what I have said is based on MY UNDERSTANDING, that doesn't mean what I said isn't true.

I just read the entire article, I noticed they talk about the Skymaster 337 which is equipped with such speaker.  I am not sure about the CAP aircraft, I had the opportunity to watch/hear the demonstration of the speaker system and it was loud and clear with that being said it is a potential effective tool to add to our CAP arsenal

To wrap things up, since the Kim search, it is my understanding that ORWG now has access to the senator's office as to what extent I am not familiar with that information yet; however Oregon and California have developed what we call "CORSAR" (California Oregon Regional Search And Rescue) this committee ties in Northern California and Southern Oregon (including Brookings, Medford, Kfalls and surrounding areas); three members of my squadron are represenatives of the fixed wing/CAP division of CORSAR.

That in itself should give you an idea of what we have done since then and hope to continue doing.  Infact we participated in our first CORSAR joint training exercise last summer and I hope to see it happen again this year .

[Larry Mangum]

The thing that most people have missed in this discussion is that the on scene Incident Commander rather rightly or wrongfully decided he did not need CAP. That stops CAP's particpation period.  Now Mr Bakker is fully within his rights to form another group so he can search, he probably still would have been prevented from searching as the IC controls the search area.  It is not unusually for a TFR to be thrown up over a search area to prevent private pilots from deciding to join in on the search.  CAP aircrews have also been stood down during searches because of private pilots deciding to fly into an area that is being searched for safety reason.  But it is still the on-scene Incident Commanders call.

Other topics on this board have discussed the  need of CAP to become fully NIMS compliant, well only deploying when tasked is part of being a fully compliant part of the NIMS system.  CAP cannot afford to self deploy without an invite unless the wish is to be seen as a rogue organization and not a member of the team. 

Only by interagency training and exercises will CAP be fully utilized, if the various state and county Emergency Centers do not know our capabilities and see us participating as part of the team will CAP be invited. 

I will end with this caveat; while we must do everything we can to comply with the reporting and training requirements of our home states and communities, we must not break CAP regulations.  If the regulations need to be changed, work within the system to make the change happen.

[isuhawkeye]

That was the best synopsis of the current ES development I have heard in quite a while. 

[mynetdude]

That was the best synopsis of the current ES development I have heard in quite a while. 

I did my best with what I knew/understood, and since I am pretty much the only regular ORWG member posting here I might as well toss what I knew/understood.

One other ORWG member signed up, he doesn't post here yet that I know of (soon I hope).

BTW thanks for the compliments

[Hawk200]

The Skymaster they talk about sounds like either an old O-2B "PsyWar" aircraft, or else a 337 modified to similar specs.

They were commonly used in 'Nam to make announcements and drop leaflets. I remember reading a magazine article about how in more boring time periods that "strains of Led Zeppelin and the Beatles could be heard across the Vietnam countryside".

Would have been cool. Wonder if I could get away with some Saliva and Mudvayne, nowadays? 

[Flying Pig]

I probably have the unique perspective in that I live in both worlds. I have had CAP IC's tell me fixed wing were far superior to helicopters in SAR, and I have been told by law enforcement supervisors that fixed wing aircraft cannot be used in SAR. I am working right now with my department to get the idea of our 206 launched on SARs right along with the helicopter.

Each one is a tool that supports the other.  Where I am, we have had SARs where the airport was fogged in and unavailable.  However, the airplane could have departed IFR and would have been VFR in about 300 ft and could have begun the search.  Once the helicopter is on scene, the helo can be  used to search confined areas, canyons, or investigate things the airplane sees.  Or, at the least, act as a high bird while the helo is maneuvering through a canyon with no comm abilities.

two things.

1 when Iowa wing was looking at flir the air force lo shop made a point of the fact that the wing did not own the aircraft, and that the assett could be reassigned at aany time

2.  the Kim search is a prime example as to why CAP needs to be involved at the state level.  it is the state who has the agreement with AFRCC.  If that agreement is set up in a more active manor CAP could be involved in much more.

I agree.  I think you might find agencies willing to outfit CAP aircraft if they could be assured they wouldn't be spending $300k on a FLIR system only to have the aircraft relocated 6 months later because the Sq. couldn't staff crews.
The FLIR would revolutionize our searches however, The FLIR is a highly perishable skill.  Our trainees at work spend 6 weeks flying 6 hours per day doing searches with the FLIR an and are then just at an acceptable level.  The FLIR requires a good deal of training and use to be effective.  

As far as someone saying an area "can't" be searched by fixed wing, thats ridiculous.  A helo may be more efficient in certain aspects, but there is nothing that "cannot" be searched by an airplane.  Especially in the case we are discussing here, when its FREE!.  Now, again having searched from both platforms, if I had to choose, keeping expense out of the picture, I would take a helicopter over an airplane any day!   You cant beat the agility of just being able to hover over an object, or simply land and walk over to investigate.  As far as endurance.  We have a fuel truck that we bring to an area and simply hot fuel on a hillside near the search area.  The idea of a loud speaker is great.  Just to be able to fly along and tell the Smith family that SAR teams are looking for them and maybe give instructions.

For those of you who are not in law enforcement, many law enforcement managers prefer to keep "volunteers" away from their scenes. Many have no idea, do not understand, or may have never even heard of Civil Air Patrol. What they see is a bunch of civilians suddenly showing up with airplanes and ground teams.  And lets face it, some Law Enforcement managers are just flat out A$%^*^#S.  In law enforcement, many supervisors have little to no experience with aircraft.  They could be a Sergeant in the court security unit by day, and have a collateral duty as the SAR Sergeant when they are called.

The argument of saving money, that depends on your audience.  In my county, we are budgeted for so many flight hours per year for each aircraft.  Its not really a cost saving issue because our aircraft are going to fly with or without CAP overhead.  Although it would increase the search area. However, a county with no aircraft, I cannot imagine not asking for CAP.  But then again, I know who we are.

The Sheriff of each county is responsible for the SAR in their area.  As far as ELT's, we don't have DF equipment and the ELT searches we have had in my area, the Dept. isn't even aware of them.

It is just imperative that each unit, in their own jurisdictions present the utmost professional demeanor, in uniform, equipment and training.  It is the local Sq. or Group that will make this happen with their respective Sheriff or Police.  The fact that  XXX County Sheriff in Georgia used CAP will never be heard about in CA.  If your in Los Angeles County, where the Fire Dept flies UH60 Firehawks and Bell 412's, you may not be received in the same manner that a rural area in northern CA will be received.  Thats just the truth of it.  It will be the local units that have to read the need for their area and come up with ways to offer their services and prove they can hang.

But let me tell you, the first time you can't man a crew when you are called, you will be back at square one so fast your head will spin, and you will have effectively undone the years of work you invested in a matter of minutes.

[Larry Mangum]

Flying Pig is absolutely correct that if you over sell your units capabilities and then can not deliver, you will lose credibility and may never be called on again. Miss a second call out and you can pretty much guarantee that you will not receive another one.

[mynetdude]

Well overselling is something to consider/think about.  We recently lost our aircraft, we only have 4 pilots in our unit and surprisingly our unit has shrunk in size so fast my head is already spinning.

I joined in 2006, It seems like we have the same number of senior members when we really don't because they don't all show up every single meeting (and I wouldn't expect otherwise as I don't show up for every single meeting, though I do make sure to go to most of them).

It is hard to make LE understand that we have our set of rules that are different than theirs and that yes we may be a civilian volunteer organization however we are not a "flying club" as alot of us are making it out to be in some areas.  And part of that is because anytime there is a major search, they tend to get a flock of civvies other than CAP wanting to fly/help and create confusion and problems for aircraft in the same search area so to solve THAT problem the higher ups in my unit have told the CORSAR/Sherrif/civilians that if they want to fly/search in a given area then we'll go in another adjacent/nearby area so that we'll stay out of their way as we do not want to tell or stop them from helping out with that in mind CAP can always provide highbird support to searching aircraft down below which is perfectly fine!

I'm not saying helos can't do the job, helos have pros/cons as much as an airplane has its own pros/cons as well.  deep canyon searching is probably the one thing you do not want to do in an fixed wing anyway.  Heck what do you know, Scott Bakker's unit also has tight relations with USCG and the Curry county sherrif a lot of times CAP/USCG will coordinate communications relay as needed.

It just would be nice if LE would be more open, sure they have more authority and responsibility but I suppose that kind of goes with the terroritory.

[JohnKachenmeister]

The thing that most people have missed in this discussion is that the on scene Incident Commander rather rightly or wrongfully decided he did not need CAP. That stops CAP's particpation period.  Now Mr Bakker is fully within his rights to form another group so he can search, he probably still would have been prevented from searching as the IC controls the search area.  It is not unusually for a TFR to be thrown up over a search area to prevent private pilots from deciding to join in on the search.  CAP aircrews have also been stood down during searches because of private pilots deciding to fly into an area that is being searched for safety reason.  But it is still the on-scene Incident Commanders call.

Other topics on this board have discussed the  need of CAP to become fully NIMS compliant, well only deploying when tasked is part of being a fully compliant part of the NIMS system.  CAP cannot afford to self deploy without an invite unless the wish is to be seen as a rogue organization and not a member of the team. 

Only by interagency training and exercises will CAP be fully utilized, if the various state and county Emergency Centers do not know our capabilities and see us participating as part of the team will CAP be invited. 

I will end with this caveat; while we must do everything we can to comply with the reporting and training requirements of our home states and communities, we must not break CAP regulations.  If the regulations need to be changed, work within the system to make the change happen.

Larry:

I don't think anybody is challenging or "Missed" the authority of the IC.  The story that came out at the time was that the OR Wing Commander contacted the Sheriff and pleaded with him to call the AFRCC so that CAP could aid in the search.  The Sheriff said that the terrain could not be searched by fixed wing aircraft, and refused to request CAP assets from the AF.  If the AFRCC had been called, it is likely that the AF would have funded the mission, and it would have been flown at no cost to the County or to the Kim family.

But because of a bad decision by the IC (The Sheriff was the IC), Mr. Kim died. 

My contention is not that CAP should have flown anyway, nor that we should have usurped any authority.  My contention is that a peace officer with a duty to protect life and property made an uninformed decision, which resulted in a needless death.  My point of view is from the moral, rather than the legal, perspective.

[Larry Mangum]

There is no doubt that the people in charge of the search screwed up. I encourage everyone to read the investigation report that was commissioned by the Governor of Oregon afterwards; it is a text book example of how not to run a search. It pulls no punches. In the aftermath of the search, Oregon Wing CAP is now a full fledge member of the state sar panel and has been called repeatedly since then.

[SSgt Rudin]

While we are adding loud speakers we should get this too:

http://www.sign-in-sky.com/

A lot more visible than the one red, one green and one white light and two strobes.

[mynetdude]

There is no doubt that the people in charge of the search screwed up. I encourage everyone to read the investigation report that was commissioned by the Governor of Oregon afterwards; it is a text book example of how not to run a search. It pulls no punches. In the aftermath of the search, Oregon Wing CAP is now a full fledge member of the state sar panel and has been called repeatedly since then.

Yeah the folks up in Washington know a bit about what has been going on for ORWG... thanks for the input.  Heck there was a search for a missing aircraft that never returned and it is my understanding he was never found (similar to Steve Fossett search) and I believe WAWG was called in to assist there were a number of occassions WAWG assisted ORWG in the past 3-6 months that I am aware of.

Ever since the Kim search, indeed ORWG has been getting more activations, that still doesn't solve the seemingly rivalry from the sherrif departments throughout the state. 

I just have one question, if the sherrif was IC, then why/how did OSP get involved? It was my understanding that there was a possibility of confusion of who had jurisdiction since it was on BLM land (that would have presumed to be sherrif/county) but in this instance the state police got involved and I am pretty sure although most likely mistaken the IC was the state police for a time during the search. I KNOW OSP was involved, there was a lot of talk about this from our end because everybody kept saying "how does OSP fit into SAR?"