Confusing promotion requirements for FO grades

[SSgt Rudin]

Aside from TIG requirements:
Promotion to FO is the same as 2d Lt
Promotion to TFO is the same as 1st Lt
Promotion to SFO is the same as Capt

However in table one time as a TFO is applied to TIG for promotion to 1st Lt and TIG as a SFO is applied to TIG for promotion to Captain.

If you have two Spaatz cadets one is 20 the other is 21, they both become senior members at the same time; one becomes a Captain the other becomes a SFO. When the SFO turns 21 they become a Capt by default, however their TIG as a SFO is not applied to the TIG requirement for Major.

Am I over thinking this or is this really confusing?

I guess my questions are:

(1) If I have a SM that is a SFO(and was never a cadet). When they Turn 21 do they become a 1st Lt or a Capt.

(2) If you say they become a Capt, why is their TIG as a SFO not applied toward Major.

(3) If you say they become a 1st Lt, than what does a FO become? and a TFO? Do they both become a 2d Lt? does the TFO become a 2d Lt and the FO a SMWOG? And what is the point of three grades if they are only applied to two when they reach 21?

[dhon27]

According to para. 30 of CAPR 35-5, "Upon reaching age 21, the member will be appointed to an appropriate officer grade or will be classified as a senior member without grade until he or she is eligible for promotion to officer grade. NOTE: See figure 2."  Figure 2 incorporates TIG as FO for eligibility for promotion to officer ranks (presuming they have satisfied the PD standard).

[Hawk200]

(1) If I have a SM that is a SFO(and was never a cadet). When they Turn 21 do they become a 1st Lt or a Capt.

If they don't become a 1LT at all, then they may promote to Captain, if they have at least 12 mo's as a TFO. Sometimes the ages don't marry up with TIG.

(2) If you say they become a Capt, why is their TIG as a SFO not applied toward Major.

Major requires 3 years as a captain. The TIG as an SFO doesn't count toward Major because the top FO grade can only promote to Captain.

(3) If you say they become a 1st Lt, than what does a FO become?

At present, it doesn't say. Could be either remain an FO until eligible for 2LT, or be a SMWOG.

and a TFO?

They may promote to 1LT, if  they have at least 12 months. If they don't have at least twelve months, then 2LT. It's unclear, but they would probably have sufficient time to go to 2LT based on time as a member, not as a former FO.

Do they both become a 2d Lt?

With sufficient time, yes. The reg is messy in this regard. If a TFO turns 21, then their promotion to 2LT would be based on time as member, not TIG. But the time as a TFO and the time as a 2LT would count towards 1LT.

does the TFO become a 2d Lt and the FO a SMWOG?

See above.

And what is the point of three grades if they are only applied to two when they reach 21?

Good question.

And yes, it's ocnfusing.

[Pylon]

In regards to the FO question - yes, it's confusing.  We had a member join a year or two ago at the age of 20 (4 or 5 months away from turning 21). 

She completed her Level I and hit 3 months and we promoted her from SMWOG to FO.  When she turned 21, she wasn't eligible for 2d Lt yet (not yet 6 months as a member), but couldn't retain FO grade at the age of 21.  So we had to "demote" her to SMWOG for a month or so until we could promote her again to 2d Lt.  In retrospect, we shouldn't have bothered to promote her to FO as it didn't accomplish anything for her.

SMWOG -> FO -> SMWOG -> 2d Lt

Equally difficult are the uniform regs set up the way they are currently.  She had to go from enlisted flight cap to officer flight cap, back to enlisted flight cap and finally back to the officer one.   

[LtCol Hooligan]

In regards to the FO question - yes, it's confusing.  We had a member join a year or two ago at the age of 20 (4 or 5 months away from turning 21). 

She completed her Level I and hit 3 months and we promoted her from SMWOG to FO.  When she turned 21, she wasn't eligible for 2d Lt yet (not yet 6 months as a member), but couldn't retain FO grade at the age of 21.  So we had to "demote" her to SMWOG for a month or so until we could promote her again to 2d Lt.  In retrospect, we shouldn't have bothered to promote her to FO as it didn't accomplish anything for her.

SMWOG -> FO -> SMWOG -> 2d Lt

I think you are making this harder than it needs to be.  If the member earned FO, upon turning 21 they are eligible for promotion to 2d Lt if the SQ/CC approves it.  The TIG requirement would be waved.  Same for TFO= 1st Lt and TIG waved; and SFO= Capt and TIG waved.  This is like saying someone who gets a professional appointment has to wait for TIG.  The promotion happens and then they begin accruing TIG for the next rank they are going for.  They do not have to go back and meet the TIG requirements for the ranks they skipped.

[ßτε]

(1) If I have a SM that is a SFO(and was never a cadet). When they Turn 21 do they become a 1st Lt or a Capt.

It depends.  If the member has 18 months TIG as SFO, then promote to Capt.  If the Member has less than 18 months TIG as SFO, then promote to 1st Lt until a total of 18 months as SFO/1st Lt.

(3) If you say they become a 1st Lt, than what does a FO become? and a TFO? Do they both become a 2d Lt? does the TFO become a 2d Lt and the FO a SMWOG? And what is the point of three grades if they are only applied to two when they reach 21?

A FO becomes a 2d Lt unless he or she has less than 6 months as a senior member.

A TFO becomes a 2d Lt.

[ßτε]

I think you are making this harder than it needs to be.  If the member earned FO, upon turning 21 they are eligible for promotion to 2d Lt if the SQ/CC approves it.  The TIG requirement would be waved.  Same for TFO= 1st Lt and TIG waved; and SFO= Capt and TIG waved.  This is like saying someone who gets a professional appointment has to wait for TIG.  The promotion happens and then they begin accruing TIG for the next rank they are going for.  They do not have to go back and meet the TIG requirements for the ranks they skipped.

This cannot be true. Otherwise it wouldn't have 12 months as 2d Lt or TFO (or combination thereof) as a requirement for 1st Lt or similarly for Capt. If a TFO automatically was eligible for 1st Lt without regard to TIG, there wouldn't have been a reason to include TFO in the TIG requirement for 1st Lt. Similarly for SFO and Capt.

[Pylon]

I think you are making this harder than it needs to be.  If the member earned FO, upon turning 21 they are eligible for promotion to 2d Lt if the SQ/CC approves it.  The TIG requirement would be waved.  Same for TFO= 1st Lt and TIG waved; and SFO= Capt and TIG waved.  This is like saying someone who gets a professional appointment has to wait for TIG.  The promotion happens and then they begin accruing TIG for the next rank they are going for.  They do not have to go back and meet the TIG requirements for the ranks they skipped.

Nowhere in CAPR 35-5 does it say that FO's automatically become 2d Lt's at 21.  Additionally, nowhere does it say that TIG is waived for FO's promoting to officer grades at 21 under Duty Performance requirements.

It does say that to be a 2d Lt, you need 6 months as a member and Level I.  It makes no mention of consideration for FO time served for 2d Lt (1st Lt and Capt, yes, TFO and SFO time is considered towards the necessary TIG).

So a FO who does not yet have 6 months as a member when they turn 21 is not eligible for duty performance promotion to 2d Lt.  TIG is not waiverable by the Sq/CC.  I bet this is a rare situation, though.

[SSgt Rudin]

I think you are making this harder than it needs to be.  If the member earned FO, upon turning 21 they are eligible for promotion to 2d Lt if the SQ/CC approves it.  The TIG requirement would be waved.  Same for TFO= 1st Lt and TIG waved; and SFO= Capt and TIG waved.  This is like saying someone who gets a professional appointment has to wait for TIG.  The promotion happens and then they begin accruing TIG for the next rank they are going for.  They do not have to go back and meet the TIG requirements for the ranks they skipped.

This cannot be true. Otherwise it wouldn't have 12 months as 2d Lt or TFO (or combination thereof) as a requirement for 1st Lt or similarly for Capt. If a TFO automatically was eligible for 1st Lt without regard to TIG, there wouldn't have been a reason to include TFO in the TIG requirement for 1st Lt. Similarly for SFO and Capt.

I do believe that the good colonel was saying that's how it should be.

[DNall]

Your questions:
1) If the SFO has served 18 months (meaning they started at 18 & hit all their marks fast) then they go to Capt. If not, then they go to 1Lt till the combination of SFO & 1Lt time add up to 18mos.

2) SFO time is not counted toward major. The whole point of the FO system is not to have 20yo Capts. Once they make Capt, if you count everything backwards, it's like they never were a FO in the first place. We don't want folks being Majors before 24, etc.

3) FO + SMWOG time count toward 2Lt. FO time does not count toward 1Lt. TFO would already meet reqs for 2Lt. TFO + 2Lt time count toward 1Lt.... etc. Again, it's designed so two members that join at the same time (one starts at 18, the other at 21+) will be eligible for Major on the same day.

The table seems pretty easy to understand, but Fm2 might be easier to read. There are some quirks when they turn 21 depending on the situation, but it works out in the end.

SMWOG -> FO -> SMWOG -> 2d Lt

Equally difficult are the uniform regs set up the way they are currently.  She had to go from enlisted flight cap to officer flight cap, back to enlisted flight cap and finally back to the officer one.   

When did SMWOG start wearing enlisted flight caps? I never heard of that.

[SarDragon]

When did SMWOG start wearing enlisted flight caps? I never heard of that.

A SMWOG, is by definition, not an officer, and therefore wears the flight cap w/o silver braid.

... Senior member officer flight cap has silver and blue braid. All others wear flight cap with solid blue braid.

[Pylon]

...and the definition classing SMWOG's as "non-officers" or "all others" is contained in Section 1 of CAPM 39-1.  Which means SMWOG's can't wear mess dress, do wear the enlisted flight cap, don't wear sleeve braid on the service dress jacket, and a number of other random things.

[mikeylikey]

^Which is silly.  They will have to buy the stuff eventually.....

[Desert Dawg]

I just went through this with one of my members.  She joined at 18 years old and went through the Flight Officer ranks.  Upon turning 21 she was promoted to the rank of 1 Lt. because she had not completed level 2.  She has now completed level 2 and the paperwork was sent in last week for Captain.  If you have any questions contact me and I will try to help.

[Major Carrales]

Pure stupidity, just promote High School Graduates over the age of 18 to 2d Lt.  This Flight Officer thing is out lived its usefulness.

Flight Officers are commonly disrespected, treated as second class CAP Officer and mistaken for cadets (all of which I have seen in my time in CAP, even to the point of championing FOs when they are treated so)  They are useful productive members of CAP, yet isolated due to their age. 

To those that maintain that the USAF prefers Officers to be over 21 or so, that is moot.  This is CAP, unless it is intended that CAP Officer be holders of a College Diploma, holding back these people is at best an inconvinience, secondly a confusing state of affairs and at worst likely a form of age discrimination.

As you can tell, I don't much care for the idea that a productive High School Graduate, likely college student or Working American is held back merely because he/she is 18, 19 or 20.

[SAR-EMT1]

From what I have observed:
FO went to 2nd lt at 21
TFO went to 1st Lt at 21
SFO went to Capt at 21
(based on reqs regarding Flight Officers)

TIG was reset to 'zero' upon said birthday AE: on your 21st birthday a former
SFO-turned- Capt is now a Capt with 1 day TIG  / FO-turned-2nd lt was now a
2nd lt with 1 day TIG

[ßτε]

From what I have observed:
FO went to 2nd lt at 21
TFO went to 1st Lt at 21
SFO went to Capt at 21
(based on reqs regarding Flight Officers)

TIG was reset to 'zero' upon said birthday AE: on your 21st birthday a former
SFO-turned- Capt is now a Capt with 1 day TIG  / FO-turned-2nd lt was now a
2nd lt with 1 day TIG

This would be inconsistent with requiring 18 months as 1st Lt or SFO (or combination) as TIG for Captain.  The regulation is clear that for a SFO to be eligible for Captain at age 21, either the SFO was promoted because of a Spaatz award, or the SFO has 18 months TIG before turning 21. Otherwise, they would be promoted to 1st Lt until such time as the total TIG in SFO plus 1st Lt totaled 18 months.

Similarly a TFO would not be eligible for 1st Lt upon turning 21 unless he or she has 12 months TIG as TFO, or has earned the Earhart Award. If not, the member would only be eligible for 2d Lt until such time as the total TIG in TFO and 2nd Lt total 12 months.

A FO would not be eligible for 2d Lt unless he or she has at least 6 months as a senior member or has earned the Mitchell Award.

[mikeylikey]

Are those charts really that hard to read?  Come on!

From my understanding of just glancing at the chart......an 18 year old that just joins can be a FO and can promote up through the FO grades and then become a CAPT when turning 21.  A 19 year old that just joins can promote up through the FO grades and can become a 1st Lt when turning 21.  Finally a 20 year old that just joins can promote through the FO grades and be a 2LT or 1st Lt depending on when his or her birthday is in relation to his or her join date. 

SO, we have to meet TIG, PRO DEV to be eligible for advanced rank when turning 21.  Thats clear, but now factor in exact birthdates and join dates in relation to birthdates, then you have to do some math.  But it is simple math.

I may be totally off my game here, as I don't deal with FO's....I have had friends who were FO's, and once had a FO in my unit who dropped out because other Officers treated him no differently than a Cadet.

instead of debating this stuff, we should really look at getting rid of Flight Officers.  There is no "Officer training" program in CAP, but that is what we make the FO program out to be.  A way for a cadet to gain the skills and knowledge needed to become an Officer when they turn 21.  B. S. !! 

Here is a crazy thought.....lets just allow those that are 18-21 to be an Officer?!?!

[Major Carrales]

Why Mikey, I believe we agree on something. 

instead of debating this stuff, we should really look at getting rid of Flight Officers.  There is no "Officer training" program in CAP, but that is what we make the FO program out to be.  A way for a cadet to gain the skills and knowledge needed to become an Officer when they turn 21.  B. S. !! 

Here is a crazy thought.....lets just allow those that are 18-21 to be an Officer?!?!

I saw with my own eyes a CAP TFO, who later went on to Command a Squadron of note later in his career, be talk downed to so distastefully at a REDCAP by a CAP Captain that I nearly left the REDCAP.  What was worse was that a cadet officer (C/Maj) was treated with more responsibility that occasion.

Is that any way to treat a person who was a cadet, stuck it out and actually trasnistioned to CAP Officership?  We mustn't eat our young.

I've always seen the CAP cadet program as a sort of ROTC for CAP.  What a shame it is when a 19/20 year old SFO or TFO, who likely has more experience in CAP than a special promotion 1st Lt or Capt, is treated with such inequity.  Is it no wonder we have a horrible Cadet to Senior ratio?

[mikeylikey]

^ Agreed!  We need to invest some research $$ at NHQ into figuring out how to keep our Cadets and transition them over to Officers.  Simply changing the wording in the Cadet texts to read "when you become a CAP Officer" and strategically placing little hints like that in things the Cadets will come across will build the mindset of "I should become a CAP Officer".