Initial Rank ?'s

[Al Sayre]

Most would get a bump to 1st Lt as instrument pilots anyway, so why not the extra bump for providing a little medical advice?

But there again, why can't what's good for the goose be good for the gander? Are my contributions to CAP not worthy of a bump? Am I a lessor member because I'm not a pilot?

Let's shift away from my scenario... How about an ASE Master Mechanic? Shouldn't he get an extra bump for providing a little free mechanical advice on POV's or heck, even doing the routine maintenance on Corp. Vans?

One CAP, One Team. Why are other's valuable (to CAP) skills being disregarded/unrewarded?

If you are an ASE Master Mechanic fixing the vans for free, then you can get a bump.  You just have to get your Squadron CC to write it up...

CAP needs pilots to fulfill our missions.  It's not that they (we) are better, it's simply that without pilots, there wouldn't be much AIR (other than the hot kind) in the Civil AIR Patrol.  That's why they get the bump.  They still have to do PD if they want to move up from their initial grade, and it's up to the SQ/CC to be sure they are contributing to the mission before they get the bump.

[Short Field]

By the time most pilots with only a PPL get qualified with Level 1 and start flying CAP aircraft, they already have six months in to promote to 2Lt.  For some reason, getting to MP takes even longer than six months.  We have USAF Active Duty pilots who have attended most meetings but still have not even qualified as a mission scanner.

[RiverAux]

I have been on the No Advanced Ranks For Anyone bandwagon for a long time.  No exceptions.  

[Tubacap]

River I'm with you, with the possible exception of the Chaplain.  They are not particularly part of the chain of command, and so rank is much more "honorary", even against our current grade system.

[RiverAux]

Nope, I'm going to remain pure on this one.  Chaplain rank is just as real as anyone else's in CAP's little universe. 

[DogCollar]

Nope, I'm going to remain pure on this one.  Chaplain rank is just as real as anyone else's in CAP's little universe. 

I could be wrong on this (and someone with more knowledge, please correct me). but I believe that the chaplains advanced rank was changed in 2005 so that it would more match the situation in the USAF, where there has been in recent years a shortage of AD chaplains and there has been a need for CAP Chaplains augmenting their corp.

[mynetdude]

Nope, I'm going to remain pure on this one.  Chaplain rank is just as real as anyone else's in CAP's little universe. 

I could be wrong on this (and someone with more knowledge, please correct me). but I believe that the chaplains advanced rank was changed in 2005 so that it would more match the situation in the USAF, where there has been in recent years a shortage of AD chaplains and there has been a need for CAP Chaplains augmenting their corp.

I'm not knowledgable about the matching the situation in the USAF, but I do know that the CAP chaplains can be requested to take temporary place of an AD chaplain until he/she returns or another one is in place.  I thought chaplains and CFIs and all those advanced skills/education gave you a higher rank to honor your acheivements not to indicate that you are better than someone who has 2nd/1st Lt ranks.  I look at a captain as having more experience than the lower ranks not necessarily in CAP in itself but in their field they are qualified for hence they got the captain grade.

[BigMojo]

If you are an ASE Master Mechanic fixing the vans for free, then you can get a bump.  You just have to get your Squadron CC to write it up...

CAP needs pilots to fulfill our missions.  It's not that they (we) are better, it's simply that without pilots, there wouldn't be much AIR (other than the hot kind) in the Civil AIR Patrol.  That's why they get the bump.  They still have to do PD if they want to move up from their initial grade, and it's up to the SQ/CC to be sure they are contributing to the mission before they get the bump.

I'm not denying that...Of course we need pilots, just like we need ground teams, comm people, etc. But you still didn't answer WHY they get a bump. Are you saying pilots wouldn't join if they don't get a little shiny object for their shoulder first, before anyone else? If that's the case, I'd start recruiting from a different pool, because that's about the shallowist, most self-serving thing I've ever heard. Frankly, those types are never the ones that are commited to the mission and stick around.

[capchiro]

A new proposed Reg that is open for discussion is one that would allow active and retired E-7 - E-9's to come in as 2Lt. - Capt.  How does everyone feel about that and is this a good or bad thing?  Would this basically shoot down the CAP NCO corps proposal??

[Cecil DP]

A new proposed Reg that is open for discussion is one that would allow active and retired E-7 - E-9's to come in as 2Lt. - Capt.  How does everyone feel about that and is this a good or bad thing?  Would this basically shoot down the CAP NCO corps proposal??

I would think that an E-7 and abov should start out as 1Lt , E-8 Cpt, and an E-9 Major. But the new proposed 35-5 says 2Lt -CPT. Being a retired E-8 I would prefer to be a CPT than a 1LT. 

[arajca]

A new proposed Reg that is open for discussion is one that would allow active and retired E-7 - E-9's to come in as 2Lt. - Capt.  How does everyone feel about that and is this a good or bad thing?  Would this basically shoot down the CAP NCO corps proposal??

I would think that an E-7 and abov should start out as 1Lt , E-8 Cpt, and an E-9 Major. But the new proposed 35-5 says 2Lt -CPT. Being a retired E-8 I would prefer to be a CPT than a 1LT. 

That was the original proposal at the Aug? NB meeting, but it was amended down one grade and the amended version was passed.

[Short Field]

I'm not denying that...Of course we need pilots, just like we need ground teams, comm people, etc. But you still didn't answer WHY they get a bump.

CAP provides for accelerated promotion for many different skills - not just pilots.  In every case, the promotion is in recognition of the time, effort, money, and training required to to acquire that skill.  Happens all the time in the military and the civilian world.  Brand new teachers with a Masters degree or PHD start out getting paid more than teachers with just a Bachelor's degree.   Just recognition of the extra skills they bring to the organization.

CAPR 35-5 even has a category called "Exceptionally Qualified" for people who have skills or abilities that are not listed in elsewhere.  It states:  "an exceptionally qualified member may be promoted to any grade  (not to include the general officer grade) where age, professional qualifications, and known value to CAP eminently qualify the member for such grade."

Outside of the "I don't like anyone getting a special promotion" argument, what is your real beef?  Why insult the people who do bring special skills to CAP?  What special skills do you see not getting promoted faster that you would like to see promoted?  Or are we just back to the "I don't like anyone getting a special promotion" argument?

[BigMojo]

Outside of the "I don't like anyone getting a special promotion" argument, what is your real beef?  Why insult the people who do bring special skills to CAP?  What special skills do you see not getting promoted faster that you would like to see promoted?  Or are we just back to the "I don't like anyone getting a special promotion" argument?

If that was directed at me...
Marketing and PR folks in the PAO role. (degreed in a PA related field, experience in NFP's a plus/higher rank)
Law Enforcement/Public Safety folks in the ES Officer role.

Those are just off the top of my head. If you are going to do it for some people, you need to do it for all and make it defined. "Special Exceptions" is just a lame attempt. I personally only see advanced promotions for those that are using their "unique" skill set in their PD track. IE, Finnace Guru's as a Finance officer. Frankly a Dr. being made a captain, just because he or she is a Dr. and does not use those skills in CAP does not warrant an advanced promotion to me. I spent 6 years getting my degrees, 2 more and I can have a Doctorate...why does that make me "captain material"?

[kpetersen]

If that was directed at me...
Marketing and PR folks in the PAO role. (degreed in a PA related field, experience in NFP's a plus/higher rank)
Law Enforcement/Public Safety folks in the ES Officer role.

Those are just off the top of my head. If you are going to do it for some people, you need to do it for all and make it defined. "Special Exceptions" is just a lame attempt. I personally only see advanced promotions for those that are using their "unique" skill set in their PD track. IE, Finnace Guru's as a Finance officer. Frankly a Dr. being made a captain, just because he or she is a Dr. and does not use those skills in CAP does not warrant an advanced promotion to me. I spent 6 years getting my degrees, 2 more and I can have a Doctorate...why does that make me "captain material"?

Well I may be wrong on this, but the Air Force tried recruiting my brother for when he got out of med school with them giving him a Captain rank if he joined.  So if you want to use the AF only promotions, this would be similar to the Air Force.  If you want the extra grade to show that you are more capable of your job, have your person put in teh special area.  There are so many different areas in which people can specialize that they can't name them all.  And even if you want to look at CAP in the Come And Pay aspect, doctors do make a bit of money...

My other question is, does this include the "special promotions" given to cadets who reach certain grades in the cadet level, or should those be retracted since the type of work completed as a cadet is significantly different than that by senior members?

[BigMojo]

Exactly...there are so many areas people can be specialists in, that's the basis of my argument for no advance promotions outside of retired/active AF personnel. (Again, I personally could care less about my own rank...not what I'm in CAP for.)

[Major Carrales]

Yes, it is not an automatic promotion to Captain.  Our Group and Wing Commander perscribes that such people be active in the unit, you know...taking  a staff possition, flying missions and contributing to the unit.  This much be vouched for in the remarks section and in e-services.

This insures someone "pays the piper" for the rank/grade.

I am of the belief that rank does matter with in CAP.  It is, as someone pointed out on their blog  , a part of their "walking resume."  I applaud the stricter standards.

[SAR-EMT1]

I have a problem with advance promotions. The regs say they are for "Mission related skills" ok, that's great, but if they are going to do that, they need to do it across the board. I'll use myself as an example.

I'm not a Pilot, A/P, Doctor, Nurse or Lawyer... I'm a Marketer. I have a Master's in Marketing, and a twin Bachelor's in Business Admin and Photography. I am a Director of Marketing by trade, and serve on the board of a Not for Profit as their Marketing Consultant. I also do freelance professional photography. My PD track (amongst others) is PAO. So what I want to know is how my skills and experience are not mission related?! My mission as a PAO is to get word out about my squadron, and raise funds. My background provides me with knowledge and experience that someone just entering the PAO program may not have any idea about. Beyond this wouldn't my skills as a professional photographer allow me to more effectively shoot and produce better images? Is that not "mission related" in terms of a scanner's role?

So here's where my contention comes in...Someone in my squadron is a registered nurse, that person has no intention of using those skills, and is not in a related PD track. Yet they demand the promotion. Where as me, who has skills undoubtedly of value, and is using them in my PD track, remains a SMwoG. It just doesn't seem right to me, and could be de-motivating to others. I frankly could give a darn about my rank, I don't even know when I'm "eligible" for promotion to 2d LT. My feeling is that if I'm proving myself worthy, my CC will promote me when he feels fit. It's just not what I'm about. I'm here to do a service to my community an country, not to prance around with brass on my shoulder playing Air Force all while saying "Look at me!" (Don't get me started on the uniform threads around here...)

My solution: Since rank really doesn't "afford you any added benefits" as it may in the military, get rid of advance promotions for anyone other that former AF officers (as a courtesy and recognition of their service in our parent organization).

[/soapbox]

Correct me if I am wrong but the Advanced grades were an AF idea or based on the Air Force advanced promo system: AE a MD automatically gets a promo in the USAF.

Beyond that, while I agree your background and Track are definately inter-related
Opening it up for youmeans opening it up for others and I am not a fan of Advanced promotions to begin with. (past maybe 2nd lt if that )

[ZigZag911]

Here's a radical idea (warm up them flamethrowers, folks!): require the Red Service Ribbon for ANY appointment to commissioned grade in CAP.

This would guarantee that all our officers have 2 years CAP service prior to becoming CAP officers.

No waivers, no way, no how, for no one! Two years in Civil Air Patrol!!!!

Cadet turning 21? If she or he has Red Service (and meets other requirements), immediately eligible for commissioned grade in accord with regulations.

Chief of Staff of USAF joins? Ineligible for commissioned CAP grade until 2 years active CAP service (of course,a s a retired regular military officer, the General is privileged and welcome to wear USAF uniform as AFIs and federal law permit; I, personally, would address the General as "General"....but he would ne be a CAP officer till he met the same standards as everyone else).

[mikeylikey]

I do NOT agree with any advanced promotion in CAP.  What can the Pilot do as a CAPT that he can't do as a 2LT?  There is my point!  CAP GRADE shows PRO DEV for the majority of our members.  It is only a small group that it shows their skills.  That needs to change.  If we are so desperate in recruiting pilots, that we have to offer them advanced grade (which in my mind) is meaningless to begin with, we are starting to really suck as an organization. 

The only thing I would allow would be a Commissioned Officer to come into CAP as whatever they were in the service.  I don't just say that because I fall into that group.  You see I am no different than anyother CAP member when I am serving CAP.  I am progress up through the CAP Grade structure just like everyone else.  When I am a Major in the Army, I will most likely still be a CAP CAPT.  No big deal.  It is a personal choice. 

What I really can not stand are the political appointments and advanced grade that goes with them.  Reference a Wing King that promotes the brand new CAP member (2nd Lt) to Major when he made him the new group Commander.  That should not be allowed.  Command Positions should require a certain amount of TIG at a lower Command position.  But in our CAP, that will never happen!

[Major Carrales]

Citing lack of a full CAP Officer Development Program, I have always looked at Special Promotions as respecting training outside of CAP.  Doctors for their medical degree, Lawyers for their law school, Pilots for their certificate and educators for their credentials (pro et al)

All that is pending actually serving in a CAP role.