Initial Rank ?'s

[mynetdude]

I know where to find the letter, but it doesn't clearly state ALL cadets regardless of grade/ES involvement.

Yes it does, it says every member. Even cadets who don't do ES are members, so it includes them.

I agree cadets are members, kinda silly not to include them.  I guess its time for me to reinforce the OPSEC requirements.

[Hawk200]

Well I knew that CPPT/OPSEC had to be completed if you're going to work with cadets and/or ES so that solves that problem but since lvl1 is required you might as well finish customs and courtesies and so on.

Level I, OPSEC and CPPT are required for everyone. Period. It's not just a matter of working with cadets and ES, everyone is to have those courses.

even if a cadet has no desire to be involved in ES? (we have a few that either have no time or have absolutely no desire to be in CAP in the first place but thats another topic)

It is my understanding that senior members have to have it regardless, and cadet sponsors (AFAIK cadet sponsors weren't required to have OPSEC because they were not involved in missions, but now OPSEC isn't just a mission thing anymore)

And I've talked to the DCC (now that I am Personnel) as far as the DCC is concerned, unless the cadet has their first stripe they don't touch OPSEC, the regulation isn't exactly clear though (or is it?) I know it says every member must have OPSEC and we must comply by April of 2008 (I believe thats the effective date?)

I know where to find the letter, but it doesn't clearly state ALL cadets regardless of grade/ES involvement.

My apologies, now that I reread my initial post, I should have clarified. L1,OPSEC, CPPT are required for all Senior Members.

OPSEC is required for all members, regardless of status, grade or position.

Level 1 is required for all new members. There are cases where certain returning former members may or may not require it, but it is mandatory for anyone initially entering CAP as a senior.

Cadet Protection is required for all members over the age of 18. Yes, that includes cadets over the age of 18. Had to give the course to a couple of adult aged cadets before the online course became available.

If you need any help in Personnel, send me a PM. I've got some time in that track under my belt.

[mikeylikey]

What is everyone's take on special appointments?  I say unless you are bringing in military Rank, then no.  Seriously, a pilot can do just as much as a 2nd LT.  What is the reasoning for making them Captains?  What is the justification. 

You see, there is justification for military officers to keep their rank.  It would be somewhat silly to say hey "AF LTCOL" no rank for you, you start as a 2nd Lt".  That may actually keep the person from joining.  But a CFI that comes in with no time in the military, and no idea how Rank works gets CAPT?  Never made sense to me. 

Is it by offering advanced rank we are trying to recruit certain individuals.  If so, that says to the non-flying types, your not as good as the new guy.  To show that, you won't be a CAPT for 3 years, but the new guy gets to be a Capt.  Oh, and he can take SOS immediately, and progress much further than you. 

[SarDragon]

FYI, for the newer folks - Level I = Foundations Course + CPPT + OPSEC. No more, no less.

[Short Field]

For some RM to keep their rank (or close to it) is just a nice surprise but not the reason most join CAP and definitely not why they stay in  - at least speaking for the spouse and I.  

And YES - we are offering advance rank to attract certain people who have special qualifications we want.  But it is not just aimed at the pilots.  An A&P with IA gets promoted to Capt just as fast as a CFI or ATP.   And anyone with a General Radiotelephone Operators License gets promoted to a higher grade (1st Lt) than a person with a PPL.

The highest promotions (to Major) go to MDs, professional educators with a PHD, lawyers, and Finance Officers.   That is really unfair to people without advanced degrees and certifications....  

What is it about SOS?  I took the non-residence version and the in-residence version (graduated as a DG) and there was very little similarity to the two courses.  SOS can substitute for the CAP Senior Officer Course or RSC but you would be ahead CAP-wise to attend RSC and it would take less time to take AFIADL-13.    

[piperl4]

They really should do away with all rank in the CAP, in the real service we spent time as NCO's and were proud of it. We went to combat and were proud of it. Our job was to do the work and take the beating. I never want to be more than I really ever was. Because you can sit and give a bunch of time for years does not make a true Col. West Point, AF Acad, and other such schools make officers.
Its amazing how a high ranking CAP officer that has never even seen the inside of a combat aircraft or participated in a real combat operation looks down at a NCO who has years of experiance dealing with SAR, Incidents, getting shot at and shooting back and other events that they want to dream they see some day.
When I come across an CAP officer who has been made one by vertue of their previous Military rank I have the utmost respect but the respect I have for the members who gain high ranking officer grades by filling squares because they have the time I must respect also but it is a far differant type of respect.
Not trying to be negative on rank but in the CAP it has grown to be to much a part of the operation.
The fun of the CAP is still at the Squadron level where you truely have the band of brothers who count on each other daily, once you get above that to the "Incident commanders" the enjoyment stops. ICS and NIMS is based on the most experiance!! We do not practice that. When was the last time anyone every spent and hour asking you your background and true experiance?? or was it just a online test that dictates it.
The CAP could grow by leaps and bounds if only they would change their thinking about rank and how it is achieved, if they are going to have it at all.
I would rather fly with or do a mission with a SM who is qualified with plenty of experiance than and high ranker who has a ton of ribbions but only flew around the patch a few times.
Sorry for the opinion but it comes with some of the turf. I love the CAP as much as anyone and took my first Form 5 in 1975 but it has never changed and I guess never will.

[RogueLeader]

They really should do away with all rank in the CAP,
<snip>

There goes the opportunities to take some advanced AF courses such as SOS, ACSC, AWC, as they all require "rank" to get in.  Even the regular courses require grade to get in, not a specific grade, but still a grade.

[piperl4]

SM has always been a grade! It means your a adult member of the CAP involved in ES or SAR what more could anyone want. It should mean more than most take it for.

[jeders]

SM has always been a grade! It means your a adult member of the CAP involved in ES or SAR what more could anyone want. It should mean more than most take it for.

Senior Member is not a grade, it is a membership classification. SM Without Grade is what you're thinking of and is not an official grade, it's just a holding pattern 'til you can get 2d Lt.

[Hawk200]

SM has always been a grade! It means your a adult member of the CAP involved in ES or SAR what more could anyone want. It should mean more than most take it for.

No it hasn't. Senior Member is a class of membership. Without rank, you would be a "Senior Member Without Grade". And ES or SAR are not the only things seniors do.

Being able to take AFIADL courses has some benefits. Can't really quantify what all those benefits would be, but I'm sure a few people will post them.

[RogueLeader]

SM has always been a grade! It means your a adult member of the CAP involved in ES or SAR what more could anyone want. It should mean more than most take it for.

Take the reference from CAPR 35-5, and read for yorself.

Here's a topic on it already
topic

if you doubt the thread, look it up at www.capnhq.gov

[BigMojo]

I have a problem with advance promotions. The regs say they are for "Mission related skills" ok, that's great, but if they are going to do that, they need to do it across the board. I'll use myself as an example.

I'm not a Pilot, A/P, Doctor, Nurse or Lawyer... I'm a Marketer. I have a Master's in Marketing, and a twin Bachelor's in Business Admin and Photography. I am a Director of Marketing by trade, and serve on the board of a Not for Profit as their Marketing Consultant. I also do freelance professional photography. My PD track (amongst others) is PAO. So what I want to know is how my skills and experience are not mission related?! My mission as a PAO is to get word out about my squadron, and raise funds. My background provides me with knowledge and experience that someone just entering the PAO program may not have any idea about. Beyond this wouldn't my skills as a professional photographer allow me to more effectively shoot and produce better images? Is that not "mission related" in terms of a scanner's role?

So here's where my contention comes in...Someone in my squadron is a registered nurse, that person has no intention of using those skills, and is not in a related PD track. Yet they demand the promotion. Where as me, who has skills undoubtedly of value, and is using them in my PD track, remains a SMwoG. It just doesn't seem right to me, and could be de-motivating to others. I frankly could give a darn about my rank, I don't even know when I'm "eligible" for promotion to 2d LT. My feeling is that if I'm proving myself worthy, my CC will promote me when he feels fit. It's just not what I'm about. I'm here to do a service to my community an country, not to prance around with brass on my shoulder playing Air Force all while saying "Look at me!" (Don't get me started on the uniform threads around here...)

My solution: Since rank really doesn't "afford you any added benefits" as it may in the military, get rid of advance promotions for anyone other that former AF officers (as a courtesy and recognition of their service in our parent organization).

[/soapbox]

[mikeylikey]

My solution: Since rank really doesn't "afford you any added benefits" as it may in the military, get rid of advance promotions for anyone other that former AF officers (as a courtesy and recognition of their service in our parent organization).

I could not agree with you more!  They give advanced rank out on an unfair basis.  Since Doctors and Nurses "legally" can't practice medicine in CAP anyway, why are we making them Captains upon joining?

We need to ditch the whole advanced grade for skills, or else base it on education level.  Say Associates gets you immediate 2nd Lt, Bachelors gets you immediate 1st Lt, and Masters degree or higher gets you immediate Capt.

[jimmydeanno]

I think the point here is someone bringing to the table technical skills and ability, not a degree.  A CFI doesn't necessarily have a masters, but possesses technical skill.  In BigMojo's case, he is using his technical skills and abilities as a marketer and photographer to benefit CAP (thank you BTW).

Someone with a degree in underwater basket weaving isn't going to bring applicable technical skills to the organization, so what benefit would it be to provide advanced promotion?  We have a member who has 3 masters degrees (he's about 45 and a career student) and isn't even capable of providing a logical safety briefing - we should make him a Maj, just because he has the degree? I think not.

But the way CAP uses it is just like how we use the current tax codes - pick what we need/want the most of and provide an incentive...

[mikeylikey]

^ Like I said, what does a Doctor bring to the table?  I could see if they were allowed to treat sick CAP members, but they are not.  Why is so difficult for some to just work through the system like most CAP members?  If they truly want to volunteer with CAP, no advanced rank need be offered to entice them, right?!?!

[Al Sayre]

A lot of Doctors that join, do so because they are pilots; not so they can provide free health care for members.  Also they have the potential to be a good source of new members, especially if they do flight physicals.  Most would get a bump to 1st Lt as instrument pilots anyway, so why not the extra bump for providing a little medical advice?

[BigMojo]

Most would get a bump to 1st Lt as instrument pilots anyway, so why not the extra bump for providing a little medical advice?

But there again, why can't what's good for the goose be good for the gander? Are my contributions to CAP not worthy of a bump? Am I a lessor member because I'm not a pilot?

Let's shift away from my scenario... How about an ASE Master Mechanic? Shouldn't he get an extra bump for providing a little free mechanical advice on POV's or heck, even doing the routine maintenance on Corp. Vans?

One CAP, One Team. Why are other's valuable (to CAP) skills being disregarded/unrewarded?

[piperl4]

Seems in life everybody wants a title, Gee I am a Col. in the CAP. Sounds great but what is the realistic value behind it. How can you compare a person that wears the rank of Col or Gen and never been in the Military. Something just is not right about that. A system of grade of somekind does sound reasonable but qualifications should be the deciding factor on how it is to be determined. Mission related skills seem to be very important. But what are those skills in comparison to the mission. Do we use a Doctor a the Squadron Level. I don't think so. Do we need a lawyer at that level?
If the CAP has a mission of SAR / HS then only those skills should be releveant. In reality a Private Pilot with 200 hours has as much value toward the mission as a Doctor that can perform heart surgery.
In 1941 the CAP had a real mission and never was afraid to get dirty. Now its about liability and lets all have rank but not get dirty. All that really matters anymore in the CAP is that call in the middle of the night when someone needs help. We should forget about all the rest as it has become unimportant and mundane. People who are worried about the ranks and fancy ribbons are not the ones up at 2 AM getting ready for a morning mission to help another person in need.
Chunk the rank and fly the mission!!
Cadet programs are in another area completely as they are preparing our youth for the future. Respect and self esteem are so important. If anyone wants to participate in the real hard missions of the CAP help the Cadets they need our support the most as without them there will be no CAP in future. They have a very nice rank structure giving pride but not intruding on the accomplishments of others. We all could take a lesson from them.

[mikeylikey]

But there again, why can't what's good for the goose be good for the gander? Are my contributions to CAP not worthy of a bump? Am I a lessor member because I'm not a pilot?

YES....you are not as valuable as the pilot.  Have you not been able to see that yet?  Everything in the organization revolves around pilots. 

[BigMojo]

I forgot...they change the strobe lamps by grasping firmly, placing on socket, and waiting for the world to revolve around them.