Initial Rank ?'s

[Climbnsink]

Hi all.  I'm new here and new to CAP<1 year.  No RM experience.   I recently got my 2LT promotion.    As I understand it CFI's get ranked as Captain after the initial 6 months.  However I'm a helicopter CFI, with private privileges SEL(form 5 is done almost finished w/scanner training).   Should I be a Captain? How much does it matter?   
I believe the reg just states CFI whether or not they intended it to be airplane specific is the question and whether they promote that way.   Also for what it's worth if it is some gray area I don't want to be a 'grade grubber.'
Thanks
Gregg

[SJFedor]

The regulation states that they may be promoted to Captain, but that is subject to approval by the Wing HQ. It is not an automatic promotion.

If you're a helicopter CFI, with only PPASEL priviledges, it's highly unlikely you'd get the advanced promotion to Captain, since you being a helicopter CFI doesn't help the CAP mission. However, if you have your instrument-airplane rating, you can at least get your 1st Lt done.

I mean, you can try, submit it to Wing via your chain of command, and see what happens, but I'd doubt they'd approve it.

[Climbnsink]

Thanks.  I'm not going to go and try asking for rank that I don't deserve according to the rules.   
Gregg 

[mikeylikey]

^ Might as well ask for it!  Everyone else does.  Seems like you too can join the Automatic Captains club.  Welcome to CAP, and congrats on 2nd LT!  Since you just got that, I would reccomend moving up the route most members do, with TIG and PRO DEV. 

No offense to automatic Captains, but whats the big rush?  You can do everything you do now as a 2nd LT.  The only difference is Automatic Captains can take SOS sooner, instead of later (which I don't agree with!)

[mynetdude]

^ Might as well ask for it!  Everyone else does.  Seems like you too can join the Automatic Captains club.  Welcome to CAP, and congrats on 2nd LT!  Since you just got that, I would reccomend moving up the route most members do, with TIG and PRO DEV. 

No offense to automatic Captains, but whats the big rush?  You can do everything you do know as a 2nd LT.  The only difference is Automatic Captains can take SOS sooner, instead of later (which I don't agree with!)

We had a captain in my squadron who was in my SLS class, he was required to take it even though he was a captain already and he is an FAA examiner and CFI (not sure if he is an CFII or just CFI but I know he is definetely an FAA examiner).

So my question is, does a new member who goes straight to captain have to do all the stuff 2nd Lts have to do and such? Or can they promote and do things as if they had been a captain for 3 years already?

[arajca]

If they want to progress beyond Capt, they need to fill the PD classes.

[SJFedor]

^ Might as well ask for it!  Everyone else does.  Seems like you too can join the Automatic Captains club.  Welcome to CAP, and congrats on 2nd LT!  Since you just got that, I would reccomend moving up the route most members do, with TIG and PRO DEV. 

No offense to automatic Captains, but whats the big rush?  You can do everything you do know as a 2nd LT.  The only difference is Automatic Captains can take SOS sooner, instead of later (which I don't agree with!)

We had a captain in my squadron who was in my SLS class, he was required to take it even though he was a captain already and he is an FAA examiner and CFI (not sure if he is an CFII or just CFI but I know he is definetely an FAA examiner).

So my question is, does a new member who goes straight to captain have to do all the stuff 2nd Lts have to do and such? Or can they promote and do things as if they had been a captain for 3 years already?

Yup. Those who get advanced promos still need to do all the PD stuff they missed, plus the stuff they need for the next promotion. So a CFI who gets Capt immediately after joining still needs to complete everything, level1-3 to get Maj in 3 years.

[Short Field]

The advanced promotion just gives you a jump on satisfing the time in grade requirements for the grades you jumped.   The PD stuff is really important if you want to really understand how CAP works and attending SLS, CLC, UCC, and RSC also lets you establish contacts with people in other units.

CAPR 35-5 does not define "CFI" as multi-engine or single engine qualified or as fixed or rotor qualified.  It just says CFI. 

Always go for anything you think you might be qualified for - make someone else tell you no, don't tell yourself no.  A former flying sergeant (a double Ace with kills in WWII and Korea) taught me that.

[RogueLeader]

Yup. Those who get advanced promos still need to do all the PD stuff they missed, plus the stuff they need for the next promotion. So a CFI who gets Capt immediately after joining still needs to complete everything, level1-3 to get Maj in 3 years.

Not quite correct.  Level 1 is required to be promoted over SMwoG.  You could have the prep course and CPPT done soon, but you still have to do the OpSec before any promotion can be approved.

[SJFedor]

Yup. Those who get advanced promos still need to do all the PD stuff they missed, plus the stuff they need for the next promotion. So a CFI who gets Capt immediately after joining still needs to complete everything, level1-3 to get Maj in 3 years.

Not quite correct.  Level 1 is required to be promoted over SMwoG.  You could have the prep course and CPPT done soon, but you still have to do the OpSec before any promotion can be approved.

Well yeah, I expected that level 1 went without saying.

[IceNine]

They do have to fill in all the blanks as you listed Fedor, Re:CAPR35-5 Mission related promotions, section 21.

All promotions in the entire organization regardless of type require Level I of which OPSEC should be an assumed portion.

[CAPOfficer]

Welcome to Civil Air Patrol and the forum Gregg; I hope both turn out to be a wonderful experience for you.

[mynetdude]

Well I knew that CPPT/OPSEC had to be completed if you're going to work with cadets and/or ES so that solves that problem but since lvl1 is required you might as well finish customs and courtesies and so on.

[Hawk200]

Well I knew that CPPT/OPSEC had to be completed if you're going to work with cadets and/or ES so that solves that problem but since lvl1 is required you might as well finish customs and courtesies and so on.

Level I, OPSEC and CPPT are required for everyone. Period. It's not just a matter of working with cadets and ES, everyone is to have those courses.

[Climbnsink]

Thanks everyone.  I think I'll just wait and get rank from TIG or PD.   I'm well overdue for an instrument rating I don't know when that might happen but it will make adding on airplane commercial and cfi relatively easy.  Hopefully I'll have that done before TIG promotion. Couple of generic advancement questions.  I've done CPPT, OPSEC and iiirc Level 1 and maybe 2 as well.   I have everything up to basic GES.  Other than scanner/observer/mp stuff what else should I be looking at?  What is SOS and SLS.  I don't really care to embrace the bureaucratic stuff anymore than I have to, but of course I want to help out and move along.   With this in mind what is next? 
Gregg

[AlphaSigOU]

Thanks everyone.  I think I'll just wait and get rank from TIG or PD.   I'm well overdue for an instrument rating I don't know when that might happen but it will make adding on airplane commercial and cfi relatively easy.  Hopefully I'll have that done before TIG promotion. Couple of generic advancement questions.  I've done CPPT, OPSEC and iiirc Level 1 and maybe 2 as well.   I have everything up to basic GES.  Other than scanner/observer/mp stuff what else should I be looking at?  What is SOS and SLS.  I don't really care to embrace the bureaucratic stuff anymore than I have to, but of course I want to help out and move along.   With this in mind what is next? 
Gregg

For Level II - tech rating in a senior specialty (need that for 1st Lt + 1 yr as a 2d Lt), SLS and complete AFIADL 13 (formerly ECI 13). 1-1/2 years as a 1st Lt and  completion of Level II gets you Capt.

To take SOS (Squadron Officer School - Air Force PME) you must be at least a Capt. Completion of SOS by correspondence will take care of part of your Level IV requirement, or you can opt to go to Region Staff College.

[mynetdude]

Well I knew that CPPT/OPSEC had to be completed if you're going to work with cadets and/or ES so that solves that problem but since lvl1 is required you might as well finish customs and courtesies and so on.

Level I, OPSEC and CPPT are required for everyone. Period. It's not just a matter of working with cadets and ES, everyone is to have those courses.

even if a cadet has no desire to be involved in ES? (we have a few that either have no time or have absolutely no desire to be in CAP in the first place but thats another topic)

It is my understanding that senior members have to have it regardless, and cadet sponsors (AFAIK cadet sponsors weren't required to have OPSEC because they were not involved in missions, but now OPSEC isn't just a mission thing anymore)

And I've talked to the DCC (now that I am Personnel) as far as the DCC is concerned, unless the cadet has their first stripe they don't touch OPSEC, the regulation isn't exactly clear though (or is it?) I know it says every member must have OPSEC and we must comply by April of 2008 (I believe thats the effective date?)

I know where to find the letter, but it doesn't clearly state ALL cadets regardless of grade/ES involvement.

[mynetdude]

Thanks everyone.  I think I'll just wait and get rank from TIG or PD.   I'm well overdue for an instrument rating I don't know when that might happen but it will make adding on airplane commercial and cfi relatively easy.  Hopefully I'll have that done before TIG promotion. Couple of generic advancement questions.  I've done CPPT, OPSEC and iiirc Level 1 and maybe 2 as well.   I have everything up to basic GES.  Other than scanner/observer/mp stuff what else should I be looking at?  What is SOS and SLS.  I don't really care to embrace the bureaucratic stuff anymore than I have to, but of course I want to help out and move along.   With this in mind what is next? 
Gregg

For Level II - tech rating in a senior specialty (need that for 1st Lt + 1 yr as a 2d Lt), SLS and complete AFIADL 13 (formerly ECI 13). 1-1/2 years as a 1st Lt and  completion of Level II gets you Capt.

To take SOS (Squadron Officer School - Air Force PME) you must be at least a Capt. Completion of SOS by correspondence will take care of part of your Level IV requirement, or you can opt to go to Region Staff College.

I'd rather just go to RSC than dabble in boring textbooks. Its no wonder I never completed my ECI-13 (I know they changed the name).  The ECI-13 is 4 volumes, I don't understand how they expect you to know all the stuff that doesn't exactly pertain to CAP (excluding military history, thats important).

Right now my priorities have changed so many times I have totally not even bothered with my ECI-13, I have other agendas that need my explicit attention at the moment.

Edit: quotes keep getting in my way

[ßτε]

even if a cadet has no desire to be involved in ES? (we have a few that either have no time or have absolutely no desire to be in CAP in the first place but thats another topic)

It is my understanding that senior members have to have it regardless, and cadet sponsors (AFAIK cadet sponsors weren't required to have OPSEC because they were not involved in missions, but now OPSEC isn't just a mission thing anymore)

And I've talked to the DCC (now that I am Personnel) as far as the DCC is concerned, unless the cadet has their first stripe they don't touch OPSEC, the regulation isn't exactly clear though (or is it?) I know it says every member must have OPSEC and we must comply by April of 2008 (I believe thats the effective date?)

I know where to find the letter, but it doesn't clearly state ALL cadets regardless of grade/ES involvement.

All members shall take OPSEC, including cadets without the Curry Achievement. When a new member comes in, one of the first things the member needs to do is OPSEC. Soon cadet achievements will be documented in e-services and I am guessing that it will check for OPSEC completion before any achievement or milestone award is approved.

[jeders]

I know where to find the letter, but it doesn't clearly state ALL cadets regardless of grade/ES involvement.

Yes it does, it says every member. Even cadets who don't do ES are members, so it includes them.

[mynetdude]

I know where to find the letter, but it doesn't clearly state ALL cadets regardless of grade/ES involvement.

Yes it does, it says every member. Even cadets who don't do ES are members, so it includes them.

I agree cadets are members, kinda silly not to include them.  I guess its time for me to reinforce the OPSEC requirements.

[Hawk200]

Well I knew that CPPT/OPSEC had to be completed if you're going to work with cadets and/or ES so that solves that problem but since lvl1 is required you might as well finish customs and courtesies and so on.

Level I, OPSEC and CPPT are required for everyone. Period. It's not just a matter of working with cadets and ES, everyone is to have those courses.

even if a cadet has no desire to be involved in ES? (we have a few that either have no time or have absolutely no desire to be in CAP in the first place but thats another topic)

It is my understanding that senior members have to have it regardless, and cadet sponsors (AFAIK cadet sponsors weren't required to have OPSEC because they were not involved in missions, but now OPSEC isn't just a mission thing anymore)

And I've talked to the DCC (now that I am Personnel) as far as the DCC is concerned, unless the cadet has their first stripe they don't touch OPSEC, the regulation isn't exactly clear though (or is it?) I know it says every member must have OPSEC and we must comply by April of 2008 (I believe thats the effective date?)

I know where to find the letter, but it doesn't clearly state ALL cadets regardless of grade/ES involvement.

My apologies, now that I reread my initial post, I should have clarified. L1,OPSEC, CPPT are required for all Senior Members.

OPSEC is required for all members, regardless of status, grade or position.

Level 1 is required for all new members. There are cases where certain returning former members may or may not require it, but it is mandatory for anyone initially entering CAP as a senior.

Cadet Protection is required for all members over the age of 18. Yes, that includes cadets over the age of 18. Had to give the course to a couple of adult aged cadets before the online course became available.

If you need any help in Personnel, send me a PM. I've got some time in that track under my belt.

[mikeylikey]

What is everyone's take on special appointments?  I say unless you are bringing in military Rank, then no.  Seriously, a pilot can do just as much as a 2nd LT.  What is the reasoning for making them Captains?  What is the justification. 

You see, there is justification for military officers to keep their rank.  It would be somewhat silly to say hey "AF LTCOL" no rank for you, you start as a 2nd Lt".  That may actually keep the person from joining.  But a CFI that comes in with no time in the military, and no idea how Rank works gets CAPT?  Never made sense to me. 

Is it by offering advanced rank we are trying to recruit certain individuals.  If so, that says to the non-flying types, your not as good as the new guy.  To show that, you won't be a CAPT for 3 years, but the new guy gets to be a Capt.  Oh, and he can take SOS immediately, and progress much further than you. 

[SarDragon]

FYI, for the newer folks - Level I = Foundations Course + CPPT + OPSEC. No more, no less.

[Short Field]

For some RM to keep their rank (or close to it) is just a nice surprise but not the reason most join CAP and definitely not why they stay in  - at least speaking for the spouse and I.  

And YES - we are offering advance rank to attract certain people who have special qualifications we want.  But it is not just aimed at the pilots.  An A&P with IA gets promoted to Capt just as fast as a CFI or ATP.   And anyone with a General Radiotelephone Operators License gets promoted to a higher grade (1st Lt) than a person with a PPL.

The highest promotions (to Major) go to MDs, professional educators with a PHD, lawyers, and Finance Officers.   That is really unfair to people without advanced degrees and certifications....  

What is it about SOS?  I took the non-residence version and the in-residence version (graduated as a DG) and there was very little similarity to the two courses.  SOS can substitute for the CAP Senior Officer Course or RSC but you would be ahead CAP-wise to attend RSC and it would take less time to take AFIADL-13.    

[piperl4]

They really should do away with all rank in the CAP, in the real service we spent time as NCO's and were proud of it. We went to combat and were proud of it. Our job was to do the work and take the beating. I never want to be more than I really ever was. Because you can sit and give a bunch of time for years does not make a true Col. West Point, AF Acad, and other such schools make officers.
Its amazing how a high ranking CAP officer that has never even seen the inside of a combat aircraft or participated in a real combat operation looks down at a NCO who has years of experiance dealing with SAR, Incidents, getting shot at and shooting back and other events that they want to dream they see some day.
When I come across an CAP officer who has been made one by vertue of their previous Military rank I have the utmost respect but the respect I have for the members who gain high ranking officer grades by filling squares because they have the time I must respect also but it is a far differant type of respect.
Not trying to be negative on rank but in the CAP it has grown to be to much a part of the operation.
The fun of the CAP is still at the Squadron level where you truely have the band of brothers who count on each other daily, once you get above that to the "Incident commanders" the enjoyment stops. ICS and NIMS is based on the most experiance!! We do not practice that. When was the last time anyone every spent and hour asking you your background and true experiance?? or was it just a online test that dictates it.
The CAP could grow by leaps and bounds if only they would change their thinking about rank and how it is achieved, if they are going to have it at all.
I would rather fly with or do a mission with a SM who is qualified with plenty of experiance than and high ranker who has a ton of ribbions but only flew around the patch a few times.
Sorry for the opinion but it comes with some of the turf. I love the CAP as much as anyone and took my first Form 5 in 1975 but it has never changed and I guess never will.

[RogueLeader]

They really should do away with all rank in the CAP,
<snip>

There goes the opportunities to take some advanced AF courses such as SOS, ACSC, AWC, as they all require "rank" to get in.  Even the regular courses require grade to get in, not a specific grade, but still a grade.

[piperl4]

SM has always been a grade! It means your a adult member of the CAP involved in ES or SAR what more could anyone want. It should mean more than most take it for.

[jeders]

SM has always been a grade! It means your a adult member of the CAP involved in ES or SAR what more could anyone want. It should mean more than most take it for.

Senior Member is not a grade, it is a membership classification. SM Without Grade is what you're thinking of and is not an official grade, it's just a holding pattern 'til you can get 2d Lt.

[Hawk200]

SM has always been a grade! It means your a adult member of the CAP involved in ES or SAR what more could anyone want. It should mean more than most take it for.

No it hasn't. Senior Member is a class of membership. Without rank, you would be a "Senior Member Without Grade". And ES or SAR are not the only things seniors do.

Being able to take AFIADL courses has some benefits. Can't really quantify what all those benefits would be, but I'm sure a few people will post them.

[RogueLeader]

SM has always been a grade! It means your a adult member of the CAP involved in ES or SAR what more could anyone want. It should mean more than most take it for.

Take the reference from CAPR 35-5, and read for yorself.

Here's a topic on it already
topic

if you doubt the thread, look it up at www.capnhq.gov

[BigMojo]

I have a problem with advance promotions. The regs say they are for "Mission related skills" ok, that's great, but if they are going to do that, they need to do it across the board. I'll use myself as an example.

I'm not a Pilot, A/P, Doctor, Nurse or Lawyer... I'm a Marketer. I have a Master's in Marketing, and a twin Bachelor's in Business Admin and Photography. I am a Director of Marketing by trade, and serve on the board of a Not for Profit as their Marketing Consultant. I also do freelance professional photography. My PD track (amongst others) is PAO. So what I want to know is how my skills and experience are not mission related?! My mission as a PAO is to get word out about my squadron, and raise funds. My background provides me with knowledge and experience that someone just entering the PAO program may not have any idea about. Beyond this wouldn't my skills as a professional photographer allow me to more effectively shoot and produce better images? Is that not "mission related" in terms of a scanner's role?

So here's where my contention comes in...Someone in my squadron is a registered nurse, that person has no intention of using those skills, and is not in a related PD track. Yet they demand the promotion. Where as me, who has skills undoubtedly of value, and is using them in my PD track, remains a SMwoG. It just doesn't seem right to me, and could be de-motivating to others. I frankly could give a darn about my rank, I don't even know when I'm "eligible" for promotion to 2d LT. My feeling is that if I'm proving myself worthy, my CC will promote me when he feels fit. It's just not what I'm about. I'm here to do a service to my community an country, not to prance around with brass on my shoulder playing Air Force all while saying "Look at me!" (Don't get me started on the uniform threads around here...)

My solution: Since rank really doesn't "afford you any added benefits" as it may in the military, get rid of advance promotions for anyone other that former AF officers (as a courtesy and recognition of their service in our parent organization).

[/soapbox]

[mikeylikey]

My solution: Since rank really doesn't "afford you any added benefits" as it may in the military, get rid of advance promotions for anyone other that former AF officers (as a courtesy and recognition of their service in our parent organization).

I could not agree with you more!  They give advanced rank out on an unfair basis.  Since Doctors and Nurses "legally" can't practice medicine in CAP anyway, why are we making them Captains upon joining?

We need to ditch the whole advanced grade for skills, or else base it on education level.  Say Associates gets you immediate 2nd Lt, Bachelors gets you immediate 1st Lt, and Masters degree or higher gets you immediate Capt.

[jimmydeanno]

I think the point here is someone bringing to the table technical skills and ability, not a degree.  A CFI doesn't necessarily have a masters, but possesses technical skill.  In BigMojo's case, he is using his technical skills and abilities as a marketer and photographer to benefit CAP (thank you BTW).

Someone with a degree in underwater basket weaving isn't going to bring applicable technical skills to the organization, so what benefit would it be to provide advanced promotion?  We have a member who has 3 masters degrees (he's about 45 and a career student) and isn't even capable of providing a logical safety briefing - we should make him a Maj, just because he has the degree? I think not.

But the way CAP uses it is just like how we use the current tax codes - pick what we need/want the most of and provide an incentive...

[mikeylikey]

^ Like I said, what does a Doctor bring to the table?  I could see if they were allowed to treat sick CAP members, but they are not.  Why is so difficult for some to just work through the system like most CAP members?  If they truly want to volunteer with CAP, no advanced rank need be offered to entice them, right?!?!

[Al Sayre]

A lot of Doctors that join, do so because they are pilots; not so they can provide free health care for members.  Also they have the potential to be a good source of new members, especially if they do flight physicals.  Most would get a bump to 1st Lt as instrument pilots anyway, so why not the extra bump for providing a little medical advice?

[BigMojo]

Most would get a bump to 1st Lt as instrument pilots anyway, so why not the extra bump for providing a little medical advice?

But there again, why can't what's good for the goose be good for the gander? Are my contributions to CAP not worthy of a bump? Am I a lessor member because I'm not a pilot?

Let's shift away from my scenario... How about an ASE Master Mechanic? Shouldn't he get an extra bump for providing a little free mechanical advice on POV's or heck, even doing the routine maintenance on Corp. Vans?

One CAP, One Team. Why are other's valuable (to CAP) skills being disregarded/unrewarded?

[piperl4]

Seems in life everybody wants a title, Gee I am a Col. in the CAP. Sounds great but what is the realistic value behind it. How can you compare a person that wears the rank of Col or Gen and never been in the Military. Something just is not right about that. A system of grade of somekind does sound reasonable but qualifications should be the deciding factor on how it is to be determined. Mission related skills seem to be very important. But what are those skills in comparison to the mission. Do we use a Doctor a the Squadron Level. I don't think so. Do we need a lawyer at that level?
If the CAP has a mission of SAR / HS then only those skills should be releveant. In reality a Private Pilot with 200 hours has as much value toward the mission as a Doctor that can perform heart surgery.
In 1941 the CAP had a real mission and never was afraid to get dirty. Now its about liability and lets all have rank but not get dirty. All that really matters anymore in the CAP is that call in the middle of the night when someone needs help. We should forget about all the rest as it has become unimportant and mundane. People who are worried about the ranks and fancy ribbons are not the ones up at 2 AM getting ready for a morning mission to help another person in need.
Chunk the rank and fly the mission!!
Cadet programs are in another area completely as they are preparing our youth for the future. Respect and self esteem are so important. If anyone wants to participate in the real hard missions of the CAP help the Cadets they need our support the most as without them there will be no CAP in future. They have a very nice rank structure giving pride but not intruding on the accomplishments of others. We all could take a lesson from them.

[mikeylikey]

But there again, why can't what's good for the goose be good for the gander? Are my contributions to CAP not worthy of a bump? Am I a lessor member because I'm not a pilot?

YES....you are not as valuable as the pilot.  Have you not been able to see that yet?  Everything in the organization revolves around pilots. 

[BigMojo]

I forgot...they change the strobe lamps by grasping firmly, placing on socket, and waiting for the world to revolve around them.

[Al Sayre]

Most would get a bump to 1st Lt as instrument pilots anyway, so why not the extra bump for providing a little medical advice?

But there again, why can't what's good for the goose be good for the gander? Are my contributions to CAP not worthy of a bump? Am I a lessor member because I'm not a pilot?

Let's shift away from my scenario... How about an ASE Master Mechanic? Shouldn't he get an extra bump for providing a little free mechanical advice on POV's or heck, even doing the routine maintenance on Corp. Vans?

One CAP, One Team. Why are other's valuable (to CAP) skills being disregarded/unrewarded?

If you are an ASE Master Mechanic fixing the vans for free, then you can get a bump.  You just have to get your Squadron CC to write it up...

CAP needs pilots to fulfill our missions.  It's not that they (we) are better, it's simply that without pilots, there wouldn't be much AIR (other than the hot kind) in the Civil AIR Patrol.  That's why they get the bump.  They still have to do PD if they want to move up from their initial grade, and it's up to the SQ/CC to be sure they are contributing to the mission before they get the bump.

[Short Field]

By the time most pilots with only a PPL get qualified with Level 1 and start flying CAP aircraft, they already have six months in to promote to 2Lt.  For some reason, getting to MP takes even longer than six months.  We have USAF Active Duty pilots who have attended most meetings but still have not even qualified as a mission scanner.

[RiverAux]

I have been on the No Advanced Ranks For Anyone bandwagon for a long time.  No exceptions.  

[Tubacap]

River I'm with you, with the possible exception of the Chaplain.  They are not particularly part of the chain of command, and so rank is much more "honorary", even against our current grade system.

[RiverAux]

Nope, I'm going to remain pure on this one.  Chaplain rank is just as real as anyone else's in CAP's little universe. 

[DogCollar]

Nope, I'm going to remain pure on this one.  Chaplain rank is just as real as anyone else's in CAP's little universe. 

I could be wrong on this (and someone with more knowledge, please correct me). but I believe that the chaplains advanced rank was changed in 2005 so that it would more match the situation in the USAF, where there has been in recent years a shortage of AD chaplains and there has been a need for CAP Chaplains augmenting their corp.

[mynetdude]

Nope, I'm going to remain pure on this one.  Chaplain rank is just as real as anyone else's in CAP's little universe. 

I could be wrong on this (and someone with more knowledge, please correct me). but I believe that the chaplains advanced rank was changed in 2005 so that it would more match the situation in the USAF, where there has been in recent years a shortage of AD chaplains and there has been a need for CAP Chaplains augmenting their corp.

I'm not knowledgable about the matching the situation in the USAF, but I do know that the CAP chaplains can be requested to take temporary place of an AD chaplain until he/she returns or another one is in place.  I thought chaplains and CFIs and all those advanced skills/education gave you a higher rank to honor your acheivements not to indicate that you are better than someone who has 2nd/1st Lt ranks.  I look at a captain as having more experience than the lower ranks not necessarily in CAP in itself but in their field they are qualified for hence they got the captain grade.

[BigMojo]

If you are an ASE Master Mechanic fixing the vans for free, then you can get a bump.  You just have to get your Squadron CC to write it up...

CAP needs pilots to fulfill our missions.  It's not that they (we) are better, it's simply that without pilots, there wouldn't be much AIR (other than the hot kind) in the Civil AIR Patrol.  That's why they get the bump.  They still have to do PD if they want to move up from their initial grade, and it's up to the SQ/CC to be sure they are contributing to the mission before they get the bump.

I'm not denying that...Of course we need pilots, just like we need ground teams, comm people, etc. But you still didn't answer WHY they get a bump. Are you saying pilots wouldn't join if they don't get a little shiny object for their shoulder first, before anyone else? If that's the case, I'd start recruiting from a different pool, because that's about the shallowist, most self-serving thing I've ever heard. Frankly, those types are never the ones that are commited to the mission and stick around.

[capchiro]

A new proposed Reg that is open for discussion is one that would allow active and retired E-7 - E-9's to come in as 2Lt. - Capt.  How does everyone feel about that and is this a good or bad thing?  Would this basically shoot down the CAP NCO corps proposal??

[Cecil DP]

A new proposed Reg that is open for discussion is one that would allow active and retired E-7 - E-9's to come in as 2Lt. - Capt.  How does everyone feel about that and is this a good or bad thing?  Would this basically shoot down the CAP NCO corps proposal??

I would think that an E-7 and abov should start out as 1Lt , E-8 Cpt, and an E-9 Major. But the new proposed 35-5 says 2Lt -CPT. Being a retired E-8 I would prefer to be a CPT than a 1LT. 

[arajca]

A new proposed Reg that is open for discussion is one that would allow active and retired E-7 - E-9's to come in as 2Lt. - Capt.  How does everyone feel about that and is this a good or bad thing?  Would this basically shoot down the CAP NCO corps proposal??

I would think that an E-7 and abov should start out as 1Lt , E-8 Cpt, and an E-9 Major. But the new proposed 35-5 says 2Lt -CPT. Being a retired E-8 I would prefer to be a CPT than a 1LT. 

That was the original proposal at the Aug? NB meeting, but it was amended down one grade and the amended version was passed.

[Short Field]

I'm not denying that...Of course we need pilots, just like we need ground teams, comm people, etc. But you still didn't answer WHY they get a bump.

CAP provides for accelerated promotion for many different skills - not just pilots.  In every case, the promotion is in recognition of the time, effort, money, and training required to to acquire that skill.  Happens all the time in the military and the civilian world.  Brand new teachers with a Masters degree or PHD start out getting paid more than teachers with just a Bachelor's degree.   Just recognition of the extra skills they bring to the organization.

CAPR 35-5 even has a category called "Exceptionally Qualified" for people who have skills or abilities that are not listed in elsewhere.  It states:  "an exceptionally qualified member may be promoted to any grade  (not to include the general officer grade) where age, professional qualifications, and known value to CAP eminently qualify the member for such grade."

Outside of the "I don't like anyone getting a special promotion" argument, what is your real beef?  Why insult the people who do bring special skills to CAP?  What special skills do you see not getting promoted faster that you would like to see promoted?  Or are we just back to the "I don't like anyone getting a special promotion" argument?

[BigMojo]

Outside of the "I don't like anyone getting a special promotion" argument, what is your real beef?  Why insult the people who do bring special skills to CAP?  What special skills do you see not getting promoted faster that you would like to see promoted?  Or are we just back to the "I don't like anyone getting a special promotion" argument?

If that was directed at me...
Marketing and PR folks in the PAO role. (degreed in a PA related field, experience in NFP's a plus/higher rank)
Law Enforcement/Public Safety folks in the ES Officer role.

Those are just off the top of my head. If you are going to do it for some people, you need to do it for all and make it defined. "Special Exceptions" is just a lame attempt. I personally only see advanced promotions for those that are using their "unique" skill set in their PD track. IE, Finnace Guru's as a Finance officer. Frankly a Dr. being made a captain, just because he or she is a Dr. and does not use those skills in CAP does not warrant an advanced promotion to me. I spent 6 years getting my degrees, 2 more and I can have a Doctorate...why does that make me "captain material"?

[kpetersen]

If that was directed at me...
Marketing and PR folks in the PAO role. (degreed in a PA related field, experience in NFP's a plus/higher rank)
Law Enforcement/Public Safety folks in the ES Officer role.

Those are just off the top of my head. If you are going to do it for some people, you need to do it for all and make it defined. "Special Exceptions" is just a lame attempt. I personally only see advanced promotions for those that are using their "unique" skill set in their PD track. IE, Finnace Guru's as a Finance officer. Frankly a Dr. being made a captain, just because he or she is a Dr. and does not use those skills in CAP does not warrant an advanced promotion to me. I spent 6 years getting my degrees, 2 more and I can have a Doctorate...why does that make me "captain material"?

Well I may be wrong on this, but the Air Force tried recruiting my brother for when he got out of med school with them giving him a Captain rank if he joined.  So if you want to use the AF only promotions, this would be similar to the Air Force.  If you want the extra grade to show that you are more capable of your job, have your person put in teh special area.  There are so many different areas in which people can specialize that they can't name them all.  And even if you want to look at CAP in the Come And Pay aspect, doctors do make a bit of money...

My other question is, does this include the "special promotions" given to cadets who reach certain grades in the cadet level, or should those be retracted since the type of work completed as a cadet is significantly different than that by senior members?

[BigMojo]

Exactly...there are so many areas people can be specialists in, that's the basis of my argument for no advance promotions outside of retired/active AF personnel. (Again, I personally could care less about my own rank...not what I'm in CAP for.)

[Major Carrales]

Yes, it is not an automatic promotion to Captain.  Our Group and Wing Commander perscribes that such people be active in the unit, you know...taking  a staff possition, flying missions and contributing to the unit.  This much be vouched for in the remarks section and in e-services.

This insures someone "pays the piper" for the rank/grade.

I am of the belief that rank does matter with in CAP.  It is, as someone pointed out on their blog  , a part of their "walking resume."  I applaud the stricter standards.

[SAR-EMT1]

I have a problem with advance promotions. The regs say they are for "Mission related skills" ok, that's great, but if they are going to do that, they need to do it across the board. I'll use myself as an example.

I'm not a Pilot, A/P, Doctor, Nurse or Lawyer... I'm a Marketer. I have a Master's in Marketing, and a twin Bachelor's in Business Admin and Photography. I am a Director of Marketing by trade, and serve on the board of a Not for Profit as their Marketing Consultant. I also do freelance professional photography. My PD track (amongst others) is PAO. So what I want to know is how my skills and experience are not mission related?! My mission as a PAO is to get word out about my squadron, and raise funds. My background provides me with knowledge and experience that someone just entering the PAO program may not have any idea about. Beyond this wouldn't my skills as a professional photographer allow me to more effectively shoot and produce better images? Is that not "mission related" in terms of a scanner's role?

So here's where my contention comes in...Someone in my squadron is a registered nurse, that person has no intention of using those skills, and is not in a related PD track. Yet they demand the promotion. Where as me, who has skills undoubtedly of value, and is using them in my PD track, remains a SMwoG. It just doesn't seem right to me, and could be de-motivating to others. I frankly could give a darn about my rank, I don't even know when I'm "eligible" for promotion to 2d LT. My feeling is that if I'm proving myself worthy, my CC will promote me when he feels fit. It's just not what I'm about. I'm here to do a service to my community an country, not to prance around with brass on my shoulder playing Air Force all while saying "Look at me!" (Don't get me started on the uniform threads around here...)

My solution: Since rank really doesn't "afford you any added benefits" as it may in the military, get rid of advance promotions for anyone other that former AF officers (as a courtesy and recognition of their service in our parent organization).

[/soapbox]

Correct me if I am wrong but the Advanced grades were an AF idea or based on the Air Force advanced promo system: AE a MD automatically gets a promo in the USAF.

Beyond that, while I agree your background and Track are definately inter-related
Opening it up for youmeans opening it up for others and I am not a fan of Advanced promotions to begin with. (past maybe 2nd lt if that )

[ZigZag911]

Here's a radical idea (warm up them flamethrowers, folks!): require the Red Service Ribbon for ANY appointment to commissioned grade in CAP.

This would guarantee that all our officers have 2 years CAP service prior to becoming CAP officers.

No waivers, no way, no how, for no one! Two years in Civil Air Patrol!!!!

Cadet turning 21? If she or he has Red Service (and meets other requirements), immediately eligible for commissioned grade in accord with regulations.

Chief of Staff of USAF joins? Ineligible for commissioned CAP grade until 2 years active CAP service (of course,a s a retired regular military officer, the General is privileged and welcome to wear USAF uniform as AFIs and federal law permit; I, personally, would address the General as "General"....but he would ne be a CAP officer till he met the same standards as everyone else).

[mikeylikey]

I do NOT agree with any advanced promotion in CAP.  What can the Pilot do as a CAPT that he can't do as a 2LT?  There is my point!  CAP GRADE shows PRO DEV for the majority of our members.  It is only a small group that it shows their skills.  That needs to change.  If we are so desperate in recruiting pilots, that we have to offer them advanced grade (which in my mind) is meaningless to begin with, we are starting to really suck as an organization. 

The only thing I would allow would be a Commissioned Officer to come into CAP as whatever they were in the service.  I don't just say that because I fall into that group.  You see I am no different than anyother CAP member when I am serving CAP.  I am progress up through the CAP Grade structure just like everyone else.  When I am a Major in the Army, I will most likely still be a CAP CAPT.  No big deal.  It is a personal choice. 

What I really can not stand are the political appointments and advanced grade that goes with them.  Reference a Wing King that promotes the brand new CAP member (2nd Lt) to Major when he made him the new group Commander.  That should not be allowed.  Command Positions should require a certain amount of TIG at a lower Command position.  But in our CAP, that will never happen!

[Major Carrales]

Citing lack of a full CAP Officer Development Program, I have always looked at Special Promotions as respecting training outside of CAP.  Doctors for their medical degree, Lawyers for their law school, Pilots for their certificate and educators for their credentials (pro et al)

All that is pending actually serving in a CAP role.

[Short Field]

All that is pending actually serving in a CAP role.

Point on! 

[SAR-EMT1]

Here's a radical idea (warm up them flamethrowers, folks!): require the Red Service Ribbon for ANY appointment to commissioned grade in CAP.

This would guarantee that all our officers have 2 years CAP service prior to becoming CAP officers.

No waivers, no way, no how, for no one! Two years in Civil Air Patrol!!!!

Cadet turning 21? If she or he has Red Service (and meets other requirements), immediately eligible for commissioned grade in accord with regulations.

Chief of Staff of USAF joins? Ineligible for commissioned CAP grade until 2 years active CAP service (of course,a s a retired regular military officer, the General is privileged and welcome to wear USAF uniform as AFIs and federal law permit; I, personally, would address the General as "General"....but he would ne be a CAP officer till he met the same standards as everyone else).

Membership would plummet . The only way to drop the numbers faster would be to introduce pink Class As.  - NO I dont mean Pinks and Greens I mean Neon Pink Class A's

[ZigZag911]

Why? If this were put together as "two years officer training/OJT"?

[SAR-EMT1]

I would support such a move, but such material would truely need to be of
military-OCS quality.