Numbered Air Force?

[JayT]

  We don't have to be the USAF Aux just to go look for ELTs right? Obviously we are working for the USAF when AFRCC gives us a call to go find it of course assuming that doesn't make us the Aux in that situation?

Nope. AFRCC can just as easily hand an ELT search off to a local Sheriff's department, local SAR team, or any other agency. It's just that we have it worked so that we fall under their umbrella of protection (FECA/FTCA) when we're doing work for them.

As much as it saddens me to say it, we're becoming more and more of a contractor for the USAF then anything else. When they need services that we offer, they "hire" us for the job.

I realize what you're saying as far as we are becoming more of a contractor for the USAF when we are needed.  In many states AFAIK the law places responsibility on the sherrif's department or other SAR agencies to take responsibility in responding to SAR calls.  These people could in turn call us for assistance since that is our speciality and that is what we train for.

I haven't been in CAP very long, but from reading the regs (and considering there have been changes since the 1940s) I'm sure NHQ and the higher ups in the higher branches of military have agreed that we should be the contractors for legal reasons I am sure.  If CAP were to be the first responders I'm sure there would have to be different laws/regulations set in place to allow it.

I'm going adrift here... sorry but I have to

I have seen and talked to people of fire departments who are all purely volunteer and receive county funding and monies from insurance companies.  I understand and realize that the local VFD is not the same thing as CAP... they are not a military branch or utilize the military functions/services like we can.

But the fact they go through rigorous training like paid fire fighters have to go through, not substandard they get to roll their firetrucks on a first response call from the 911 dispatch, I am sure these guys have to meet a response quota or the county will not call their station for response or allow it.

What I'm saying is, we have cadets and I realize that alone has some legal issues and burdens which prevent us from doing certain things, and I don't see how CAP can't be utilized like a local VFD and activate on a first responder basis; sure that means our training will have to be stepped up and meet certain quotas and so on maybe its worth it.

First Responder to what?

[RiverAux]

Besides, not very many squadrons get to participate in CD... thats a small niche so losing CD isn't a huge loss.

Again, we've doing CD as AF missions right now and have been since the very start.  Heck, we were still the "full time" Auxiliary back when we started doing them. 

By the way, our Wing shares the wealth and every flying unit has the chance to participate in CD ops. 

[mynetdude]

I heard about something about wings get paid a good chunk for CD flights and the squadrons get a piece of it.

Sorry if I am assuming wrong, but only been in 16 months I'm not allowed to participate on CD for another 7 months to even be considered to be eligible.  It just doesn't seem like many (at least in my area) are participating in CD... I will have to ask my commander about this.

[RiverAux]

No, we get reimbursed the same rates for CD missions as all our other missions.  We don't get paid for anything. 

[mikeylikey]

Besides, not very many squadrons get to participate in CD... thats a small niche so losing CD isn't a huge loss.

Again, we've doing CD as AF missions right now and have been since the very start.  Heck, we were still the "full time" Auxiliary back when we started doing them. 

By the way, our Wing shares the wealth and every flying unit has the chance to participate in CD ops. 

Yes, and no.  Did you miss the whole debate when we were told to remove the "AF AUX" from our planes because of the CD missions?  Did you miss that Wings can do CD as a non-AF assigned Mission, but rather work for the state, thus no affiliation with the AF? 

It is very complicated, and if you go back two years here, you can re-read what everyone's take on the matter was.

[JayT]

I heard about something about wings get paid a good chunk for CD flights and the squadrons get a piece of it.

Sorry if I am assuming wrong, but only been in 16 months I'm not allowed to participate on CD for another 7 months to even be considered to be eligible.  It just doesn't seem like many (at least in my area) are participating in CD... I will have to ask my commander about this.

It's not suppose to be a high profile thing.

[DNall]

CD happens for both state & federal. When flying for DEA/Customs/USFS it's as an AFAM & we are AFAux. That's done within the bounds of Posse Comitatus. Same as Navy P3s tracking drug runners trying to make it into the US. Do HLS missions for 1AF as well that play on that gray line. There are limits on asst to LE in all those cases. Less limits, or rather less oversight of the limits, when flying for states, but that's not nearly as much of the work.

What does that have to do with being a numbered AF? If anything, being a nbumbered AF would preclude us working for 1AF, at least in some ways.

[mynetdude]

  We don't have to be the USAF Aux just to go look for ELTs right? Obviously we are working for the USAF when AFRCC gives us a call to go find it of course assuming that doesn't make us the Aux in that situation?

Nope. AFRCC can just as easily hand an ELT search off to a local Sheriff's department, local SAR team, or any other agency. It's just that we have it worked so that we fall under their umbrella of protection (FECA/FTCA) when we're doing work for them.

As much as it saddens me to say it, we're becoming more and more of a contractor for the USAF then anything else. When they need services that we offer, they "hire" us for the job.

I realize what you're saying as far as we are becoming more of a contractor for the USAF when we are needed.  In many states AFAIK the law places responsibility on the sherrif's department or other SAR agencies to take responsibility in responding to SAR calls.  These people could in turn call us for assistance since that is our speciality and that is what we train for.

I haven't been in CAP very long, but from reading the regs (and considering there have been changes since the 1940s) I'm sure NHQ and the higher ups in the higher branches of military have agreed that we should be the contractors for legal reasons I am sure.  If CAP were to be the first responders I'm sure there would have to be different laws/regulations set in place to allow it.

I'm going adrift here... sorry but I have to

I have seen and talked to people of fire departments who are all purely volunteer and receive county funding and monies from insurance companies.  I understand and realize that the local VFD is not the same thing as CAP... they are not a military branch or utilize the military functions/services like we can.

But the fact they go through rigorous training like paid fire fighters have to go through, not substandard they get to roll their firetrucks on a first response call from the 911 dispatch, I am sure these guys have to meet a response quota or the county will not call their station for response or allow it.

What I'm saying is, we have cadets and I realize that alone has some legal issues and burdens which prevent us from doing certain things, and I don't see how CAP can't be utilized like a local VFD and activate on a first responder basis; sure that means our training will have to be stepped up and meet certain quotas and so on maybe its worth it.

First Responder to what?

Good question, but I kind of thought this was obvious? First responder to downed aircraft or ELTs? immediate recon support, etc. AFAIK we are typically called first, but that isn't always the case at least where I am at.  In many Oregon counties the sherrif gets the call when an ELT is tracked by AFRCC and AFRCC alerts OEM then OEM goes down the list of who to call first as required by law.  What if CAP could be called first instead of the sherrif? Wouldn't that save taxpayer dollars and decrease spending and potentially give CAP slightly more funding?

[JayT]

Yeah, but good luck going up against the Shrieff Department in terms of funding wars.

[mynetdude]

Yeah, but good luck going up against the Shrieff Department in terms of funding wars.

can't disagree with you there, I have a senior member from another squadron in our wing thinks he can win it with the sherrif's department in his area.  I have heard the opposite for MANY counties here in Oregon, the sherrif don't want nothing to do with CAP in some counties or want their help for that matter.

I still don't exactly understand, why waste tax dollars finding an errant ELT when CAP can have all the fun doing it and the AF pays for it? The deputy is paid, we are not, he is on the clock when looking for these ELTs... it makes no sense.

It would be one thing if we found a downed aircraft from an ELT find and then to call the deputy out to take over and start a rescue plan then it would be worth the tax dollars to save on the man hours.

[bosshawk]

First of all: may I remind you that this thread has strayed a long way from the title: Numbered AF.  Remember, we are not in the AF, we are not of the AF and we are not from the AF: that makes us outside the AF.  We are a "sometime" auxilliary and there is absolutely no chance that the AF would even give this whole subject more than about 20 seconds thought.

Second: if you have questions about CD, either ask your unit commander, ask the Wing CD Officer, read CAPR60-6 or PM me.  By my title, you will notice that I am a Wing CDO and have been very active in the program for about 13 years.  In the last six or eight posts, I have seen the usual misconceptions, mis-truths and misinformation that seems to pervade CAP.

[SAR-EMT1]

As much as it saddens me to say it, we're becoming more and more of a contractor for the USAF then anything else. When they need services that we offer, they "hire" us for the job.

You Sir are exactly right.  Those in leadership abut 10 years ago really screwed all of us over.  We could have become the "Official" AF Auxiliary, but the Corporate leadership wanted none of that, and we are stuck here now in sort of a legal limbo. 

We should remove all reference to "Air Force Auxiliary".  Face it, we are in all intents a contract corporation much more like blackwater.  We (the Corporation) is paid for services under a contract, and we are given certain benefits that most Government contractors are given when performing their duties.

I heard that the leadership at the time wanted to get rid of full time Auxiliary status so we could "legally" perform Counter Drug operations.  Well, if that was the case, it WAS NOT WORTH IT!

We need to become the full time AF Auxiliary, and I am sorry to say, loose the Corporate side alltogether.  Let the AF take complete control, and get rid of everything corporate.  If that means we loose some missions (like CD) so be it. 

         AMEN!

[mikeylikey]

^ Let me apologize for the grammatical error above "We (the Corporation) is paid".  Wow.....I can't believe I let that one get past my double check!  Sorry everyone!

[BlueLakes1]

Besides, not very many squadrons get to participate in CD... thats a small niche so losing CD isn't a huge loss.  I haven't seen our squadron do CD before, though we do have a couple of members CD eligible.

Over 50% of my wing's total flying hours in FY07 were directly related to CD, either A-3 or A-4 mission symbol flying. While it might not mean much to your wing, it means an awful lot to others.

[bosshawk]

Just to try to put CD in perspective: CAWG has either the biggest or second biggest CD program in CAP, depending on whose numbers you believe.  We flew about 30 percent of all CAWGs flying hours on CD last year: about 2300 hours.  We have over 300 people cleared for CD: probably more than some Wings have in their entire membership.  Not an insignificant program!!!!!!!!!!!

[mynetdude]

I know we're going off topic here,

And I didn't mean to make untrue statements about CAP in general as far as CD goes. I don't know a lot about CD yet as much as I'd like to but I'm not even eligible so I can only know about it from reading the regulations.

Sure other wings are much better than others and demand for CD is probably higher in other wings especially where there is a higher population. We only have 412 seniors and 240 cadets in this wing according to Eservices, how many of them are active? maybe 50%? I don't have a way of knowing those numbers so 50% is an awfully big guess.

I'm curious to know what the total numbers are in each wing just for the fun of it.

Now, to be on topic, there has been suggestions that if going to a numbered Air Force some of the missions could change, what about CD? (I'd like to know more in depth) sure the Navy P3 orions are out there looking the USCG are also tasked for drug traffiking issues on US waters (I'm not sure about waters beyond US control or how the Navy P3s and the USCG compare as they seem to do similar stuff).

With all the name changes we've had USAF Aux, Civil Air Patrol, US Civil Air Patrol (and we still have/use the name USAF Aux on the tails of our fleets and patches). Heck, when I went out on a cadet activity escorting cadets to one of the vans to obtained containerized water to put out a live fire left behind by another citizen... some people walked by and asked what "branch of service" we were from and the cadets replied "Air Force" I didn't question it because I had thought we were a part of the air force all the time to some degree but that doesn't even seem like the case except during taskings the AF wants us to do. 

My point is, why change again, add more confusion or complexity? Its complex enough, some people have to actually put some thought into it that are not regularly involved with CAP or know much about it as to whether we are significantly or not significantly part of the USAF which is why if you'll note when you do fundraisers the regulations say that the unit commander should use strong discretion when wearing appropriate uniform as you want to make sure the USAF has no involvement in your unit's fundrasising so going numbered air force could hamper that too.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

We ARE Civil Air Patrol, and we ARE the Air Force Auxiliary. When we go looking for an ELT, we're the Auxiliary. When we're flying counter drug missions, we're the Civil Air Patrol. When we're flying ROTC cadets in O-flights, we're the the Auxiliary. Normal weekly meetings, we're the Civil Air Patrol.

Whoa there... isn't the cadet program an AFAM? We're Civil Air Patrol, the auxiliary we always were before, when we're training cadets.

Honestly, I don't think I've done much in CAP that wouldn't be considered outside the lines of the auxiliary. Huh.

[DNall]

I swear I don't understand how people still have trouble with this. The ONLY thing that technical aux or not status has anything to do with is legal liability. The AF told Congress they don't think they ought to pay for lawsuits for things CAP does during times when AF has no supervision or authority to tell them not to. Simple as that, and there is absolutely nothing whatsoever more to it. Congress, AF, fed agencies, & everyone else see us same as they always have. Nothing has ever changed about that, least of all our affiliation with the AF.

[SarDragon]

AFAM refers to having an Air Force assigned mission number for a specific event, like a search or training mission. It does not refer to the three missions of CAP - CP, ES, and AE.

[JayT]

We ARE Civil Air Patrol, and we ARE the Air Force Auxiliary. When we go looking for an ELT, we're the Auxiliary. When we're flying counter drug missions, we're the Civil Air Patrol. When we're flying ROTC cadets in O-flights, we're the the Auxiliary. Normal weekly meetings, we're the Civil Air Patrol.

Whoa there... isn't the cadet program an AFAM? We're Civil Air Patrol, the auxiliary we always were before, when we're training cadets.

Honestly, I don't think I've done much in CAP that wouldn't be considered outside the lines of the auxiliary. Huh.

Nope, it's one of our three missions, but its the Civil Air Patrol Cadet Program, not the Air Force Auxiliary Cadet Program.