FLM

[stillamarine]

There used to be a powerpoint on flightline marshaler signals available on cap.gov. But when you go into operations and click on aircrew/flightline for the available training it says it's not available. Does anyone have this powerpoint available, or have a sheet with them I can print out to give as a hand out? I plan on doing a class for it at our lock in this weekend. Thanks!

[Al Sayre]

The signals etc are here:  http://level2.cap.gov/documents/Flight_Line_Reference_Text.pdf

[stillamarine]

Capt Sayre

Perfect Thanks!

[Al Sayre]

You're welcome

[♠SARKID♠]

No dancing on the flight line.

[Pace]

Wha???  You mean we can't do this anymore?!   

[SarDragon]

Now I'm really bummed.  That video is in my FLM presentation! Guess I'll have to replace it. 

[stillamarine]

Wha???  You mean we can't do this anymore?!   

LOL That reminds me of when I was in the Marine Corps. My first MOS was Landing Support Specialist and one of our jobs was external lifts with Helos. We guided the aircraft into picking up the loads using hand and arm signals. Of course we knew that 99% of the time, if it wasn't a student pilot who was required to pay attention to us, they were listening more to the crew in the back and only half watching us for an emergency wave off. One day, on Ie Shima off of Okinawa, I was the outside marshaller (furthest from the load, the one the pilot watched) when my inside marshaller (about 10 feet from the load) started doing the macarena! Well of course, I did what the outside marshaller was required to do..........I started repeating all the signals given to me!!

Later on when the helo came in to pick us up to take us home, the crew chief handed me a headset and said the pilot wanted to talk to me. Pilot happened to be the Squadron Commander! After grilling me on what had happened and making me feel about 6 inches tall (Marine Lt Cols have that power!) He told me the worst part was him and the co-pilot couldn't stop laughing for 4 pick ups!

[♠SARKID♠]

Wha???  You mean we can't do this anymore?!   

Okay, that may be a classic, but I can do one better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqCn5nuasHM

Soldier in UK did this as part of a cancer fundraiser.  Starts out slow, but gets funny about a third of the way in. "Thriller" is the best.

[SSgt Rudin]

Wow, never seen that publication before, 22 hand signals... just wow. Aside from the fact there are a lot missing (like they have chocks in but not chocks out) 22 is ridiculous, considering when I was in the Navy we had to know 66 and how to do them at night with wands. http://www.tpub.com/content/aviation/14014/css/14014_250.htm

[♠SARKID♠]

^How many laughs does "Connect ground electrical power supply" get?

[SarDragon]

Wow, never seen that publication before, 22 hand signals... just wow. Aside from the fact there are a lot missing (like they have chocks in but not chocks out) 22 is ridiculous, considering when I was in the Navy we had to know 66 and how to do them at night with wands. http://www.tpub.com/content/aviation/14014/css/14014_250.htm

Yeah, I learned all those, too. The AFI shows 74 signals. The USN manual shows 64 fixed wing and 44 rotary wing signals.

Lemme ask you - how many CAP A/C have the following: tail hooks, dive brakes, ability to back up, APUs, external air start, tail/nose wheel locks, weapon bays, folding wings/rotors, landing gear lock pins, winches, external load hooks, the ability to hover?

I think 22 signals is about right, considering the answer of zero to all of the above.

BTW, Chocks Out is the first signal on page 29.

[JAFO78]

Wow thanks guys for sharing these. All the time I spent on the ramp with the BIG jets aka 707's to 747 plus CAP flight line, and I WAS doing it all wrong.

[SarDragon]

Wow thanks guys for sharing these. All the time I spent on the ramp with the BIG jets aka 707's to 747 plus CAP flight line, and I WAS doing it all wrong.

You just made me spit hot chocolate on my monitor. 

I get great laughs when I watch the guys at the airports "waving" airplanes. The variety of techniques surpasses anything I ever saw in the military. OTOH, I've never seen anyone direct one into a building or another plane, so "right" must be relative. 

[SSgt Rudin]

Wow, never seen that publication before, 22 hand signals... just wow. Aside from the fact there are a lot missing (like they have chocks in but not chocks out) 22 is ridiculous, considering when I was in the Navy we had to know 66 and how to do them at night with wands. http://www.tpub.com/content/aviation/14014/css/14014_250.htm

Yeah, I learned all those, too. The AFI shows 74 signals. The USN manual shows 64 fixed wing and 44 rotary wing signals.

Lemme ask you - how many CAP A/C have the following: tail hooks, dive brakes, ability to back up, APUs, external air start, tail/nose wheel locks, weapon bays, folding wings/rotors, landing gear lock pins, winches, external load hooks, the ability to hover?

I think 22 signals is about right, considering the answer of zero to all of the above.

BTW, Chocks Out is the first signal on page 29.

I went threw NAVAIR 114 and came up with 35 fixed wing signals and 26 Helo signals. While CAP may not have Helos they do take the time to talk about them and how to set up a LZ and all that so, IMHO at the least the FLS should know how to land one.

See attached.

[♠SARKID♠]

Well, like they say, our agency partners might be using helos so we should know how to marshall them.

[SarDragon]

FWIW, my sources: AFI_011-218, AIRCRAFT OPERATION AND MOVEMENT ON
THE GROUND, and NAVAIR 00-80T-113, AIRCRAFT SIGNALS NATOPS MANUAL.

In all my time in CAP, I have had exactly one opportunity to interact with a helicopter, and that was to direct a sheriff's dept helo by a wreck site, as part of a ground team. The fact that I had worked with helos in the military was a plus, but he certainly could have landed w/o my assistance once we showed him the landing are location. I wan't acting as an FLM or FLS, even though I was qualified at the time (I think).

I think we should not ignore the possibility of working with helos, but should make that a supervisor function.

[RiverAux]

Quite realistically, this is one of the least needed skillsets in CAP.  Our pilots rarely, if ever, have a marshaller guiding them when they are flying on their own or on CAP's dime.  They don't need people waving their hands at them in order to park the aircraft.  Perhaps this is a nice thing to do at Blue Beret or at a HUGE mission base, bit thats about it.  Sure, its kind of a neat things for the cadets to do, but if I've got spare people I'd rather use them on a ground team than having them sit around base most of the day doing something that isn't necessary.

As to working with helos, I don't have a problem with including it in the GT training, but as has been said, the pilots can do it on their own most of the time.   

[SarDragon]

I learned the skill as a cadet, working on flightlines that really needed marshallers, due to the configurations. That skill was very useful to me when I was in the military.

It might not be the most needed ES skill, but it is somethoing that cadets can do well, with much less training than GTM. It gets them in the door doing ES, and exposes them to aircraft operations.

[♠SARKID♠]

We've had marshallers on on two missions, a SAREX and a SAR-Eval.  I was on the line for both missions, and I have to say, it's one of the most fun things I've done in ES.  Arguably more enjoyable than GT.  If you want to get cadets involved with ES, get them certified as FLMs.

[SSgt Rudin]

Quite realistically, this is one of the least needed skillsets in CAP.  Our pilots rarely, if ever, have a marshaller guiding them when they are flying on their own or on CAP's dime.  They don't need people waving their hands at them in order to park the aircraft.  Perhaps this is a nice thing to do at Blue Beret or at a HUGE mission base, bit thats about it.  Sure, its kind of a neat things for the cadets to do, but if I've got spare people I'd rather use them on a ground team than having them sit around base most of the day doing something that isn't necessary.

As to working with helos, I don't have a problem with including it in the GT training, but as has been said, the pilots can do it on their own most of the time.   

RM Pilots "don't" need marshalers either yet you wont see a military aircraft parking it's self. Why? well fire sensors don't always work, CADs fail, and fire bottles don't always put out the fire.

[RiverAux]

If it is so critical to have them, then why doesnt' 60-1 require flight line marshallers whenever a CAP aircraft is doing something?  Why do we only do it at SAREXs?  It isn't a safety issue and I could argue that the risks of having relatively untrained adults/kids trying to guide moving aircraft around is probably higher than anything that they might mitigate by being present. 

[stillamarine]

Thank all for hi-jacking my thread.

Only wanted the resources not to debate it.

Mods, I humbly bow to you if you wouldn't mind locking this.

[Pace]

Interesting topic of debate.  If you want to continue it, give it a new thread with a title that is more fitting.

*Click*